General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Petra]

Sorry, once again question about age and kissing stuff for antishippers.Please be patient, I just can't get it out of my head.So...kiss in "Grace" make some antishippers want to puke? May I ask why?Does it have something to do with Jack's age?(he isn't that old, you know..)

[ShadowMaat]

Is this something that really belongs in ship discussion? It seems to me that all your asking for is the anti-ship viewpoint and that you don't care to hear from shippers. Unless you're planning to refute the opinions/comments of the anti-shippers, you might get a better understanding of them if you read the anti-ship thread already mentioned and post your questions there. We DO have actual discussions over there, ya know. And again, I know the thread length is a bit daunting, but if you actually read it then I think it should answer a lot of your questions. A lot of the ground you're trying to cover here has already been covered there. I'm not sure there's much reason to just repeat it all.

[Jace021903]

Sorry, once again question about age and kissing stuff for antishippers.Please be patient, I just can't get it out of my head.So...kiss in "Grace" make some antishippers want to puke? May I ask why?Does it have something to do with Jack's age?(he isn't that old, you know..)

It all depends on a person perspective. Lots of different opinions about chain of command issues and etc...

For any question that you ask about ship, there will be a slightly different opinion depending on who answers.

Lots of fans no matter what they think about ship agree that Jack is an attractive man.

[Madeleine]

Darquee, I don't think people are saying that S/J has affected the Jack/Daniel relationship in terms of how Jack behaves to Daniel so much as in terms of how the scenes between them are written.

Example - Evolution II. Daniel had been tortured, and we don't see any sign that Jack cares. Knowing that they *are* friends it doesn't make me think 'hey, Jack doesn't care about Daniel as much as he used to', but it does make me wonder why we don't see anything like concern. Except that I'm not wondering for long, cos Jack gets a nice long scene full of concern for Sam. Its not that she didn't deserve it, but that Daniel *did*. That seems to me to be purely a result *not* of the S/J ship, but of the writers' decision to use RDA's time primarily with Sam in order to highlight shippiness.

Leaving aside the issue of whetherJack gets as shippy as Sam or not, the way that J/D has suffered is not by a 'spoiling' or lessening of their friendship or even a change in it (it was clear enough in Lost City that they care for each other, and clear that they are close friends) but by a straightforward lessening in the amount of it that we see. And I'd accept "RDA has reduced his screentime" as an excuse, if it wasn't for the fact that RDA's scenes with AT have increased in number as his scenes with CJ and MS have decreased.

None of this has any bearing on whether I see Jack being shippy or not. What I see is the writers writing 'shippy' scenes at the expense of other stuff I like, and *that* is what makes me miss the D/J friendship, because even though it's still there we're not getting to see it.

I hope that explains or clarifies the aparrent contradiction in people saying "Jack doesn't have those feelings for Sam" and then three lines later "Jack & Sam ship is to blame for the lack of Daniel & Jack friendship". It's not Jack's behaviour that's to blame, it's just that he turns up in the wrong scenes - or in too few of the right ones

[Madeleine]

Sorry, once again question about age and kissing stuff for antishippers.Please be patient, I just can't get it out of my head.So...kiss in "Grace" make some antishippers want to puke? May I ask why?Does it have something to do with Jack's age?(he isn't that old, you know..)

Puke? I wouldn't go that far. The kiss itself was hardly a problem, it was a hallucination within a hallucination and she'd banged her head. A real kiss would be icky, but because of her always having called him 'Sir' and a whole load of related stuff. He's not too *old* to kiss her though, that's as silly as saying Pet's wrong for Sam because of his youth

[Dani347]

Sorry, once again question about age and kissing stuff for antishippers.Please be patient, I just can't get it out of my head.So...kiss in "Grace" make some antishippers want to puke? May I ask why?Does it have something to do with Jack's age?(he isn't that old, you know..)

Hmm, RDA is what, 50 something? AT is almost 40? Not that big an age range to me. Better than 50 year old men and 20 year old women like you see in the movies. No, my problem is whenever they blantantly bring ship into the picture, it makes me want to puke.

[Liv]

/.../ but because of her always having called him 'Sir' and a whole load of related stuff.

Yes, that's another reason (apart from the one's I've already mentioned) why I'm so opposed to the Sam/Jack ship. The thought of her having feelings for this man, while all the time having to refer to him as 'Sir' is IMO, a little... unusual. Frankly, it kind of weirds me out.

[brihana25]

Yes, that's another reason (apart from the one's I've already mentioned) why I'm so opposed to the Sam/Jack ship. The thought of her having feelings for this man, while all the time having to refer to him as 'Sir' is IMO, a little... unusual. Frankly, it kind of weirds me out.

To me, it sets them up to automatically enter a superior/subordinate or dominate/submissive relationship.

They're not on equal footing going in, and that's never a good sign for any relationship. Had things stayed in the realm of UST and built more slowly and evenly from both sides, then it might have been possible for them to enter on more equal footing.

But as it stands now, the final scene of Grace made it seem, to me, that he gets testy if she so much as calls him "Jack" instead of "Sir"... and that's just not a healthy place to be.

[Jonisa]

It's not Jack's behaviour that's to blame, it's just that he turns up in the wrong scenes - or in too few of the right ones

That's exactly the problem I had with the latter half of Season 7. I felt like the writers had a (figurative) two-by-four and were whacking me in the head with it every episode.

"Look! Look at this shippy scene! They have feeeeeelings for each other. Got it? Obviously not. Okay, we'll put one in the next episode. And the next. And the next...." Whack. Whack. Whack. Ouch.

That wasn't even good enough. Then they had peripheral characters such as Bregman and Kinsey and the President talking about ship too. I just got so terribly sick of it.

And lest you think it was only the Jack and Daniel scenes that people missed, (and yes, that is a fan favorite, and that is why it's brought up a lot), there was also a decided lack of interaction between some of the other relationships in the second half of season 7. Daniel and Teal'c? I can't think of any. Sam and Daniel? There was Chimera, but other than that I can't think of anything significant. Jack and Teal'c? Lost City, right? That's it. I'm sure there are a couple I'm missing, but there were lots more Jack and Sam scenes. Many, many, many more.

In my case, I'm a fan of some of the other relationships too, not just Jack and Daniel. I've loved the Daniel and Teal'c scenes we've had so far this year, for example. I want to see all the team members interact with each other. I don't like seeing one relationship monopolize the show, no matter which two characters they might be.

Oh, and some people don't care about the Jack and Sam relationship not because he's too old or because of the whole regs thing, but just because they find it very boring and chemistry-less. That'd be me. I can't say hate, because I'm not into hating things. Not worth my time or effort. But I do find the whole thing incredibly dull. And I'm oh so sick of it.

I'd be hard-pressed to call myself an anti-shipper, as it just isn't important enough to me. I don't write letters or do a lot of venting about it. But I do hope the writers can continue writing the rest of Season 8 with a nice balance between the four core characters, without emphasizing one relationship over the others, as I felt they did last year. MHO, of course.

[DarkQuee1]

Darquee, I don't think people are saying that S/J has affected the Jack/Daniel relationship in terms of how Jack behaves to Daniel so much as in terms of how the scenes between them are written.

Example - Evolution II. Daniel had been tortured, and we don't see any sign that Jack cares. Knowing that they *are* friends it doesn't make me think 'hey, Jack doesn't care about Daniel as much as he used to', but it does make me wonder why we don't see anything like concern. Except that I'm not wondering for long, cos Jack gets a nice long scene full of concern for Sam. Its not that she didn't deserve it, but that Daniel *did*. That seems to me to be purely a result *not* of the S/J ship, but of the writers' decision to use RDA's time primarily with Sam in order to highlight shippiness.

Leaving aside the issue of whetherJack gets as shippy as Sam or not, the way that J/D has suffered is not by a 'spoiling' or lessening of their friendship or even a change in it (it was clear enough in Lost City that they care for each other, and clear that they are close friends) but by a straightforward lessening in the amount of it that we see. And I'd accept "RDA has reduced his screentime" as an excuse, if it wasn't for the fact that RDA's scenes with AT have increased in number as his scenes with CJ and MS have decreased.

None of this has any bearing on whether I see Jack being shippy or not. What I see is the writers writing 'shippy' scenes at the expense of other stuff I like, and *that* is what makes me miss the D/J friendship, because even though it's still there we're not getting to see it.

I hope that explains or clarifies the aparrent contradiction in people saying "Jack doesn't have those feelings for Sam" and then three lines later "Jack & Sam ship is to blame for the lack of Daniel & Jack friendship". It's not Jack's behaviour that's to blame, it's just that he turns up in the wrong scenes - or in too few of the right ones

Madeline, let me say first that I understand where you are coming from. And I don't have a problem with anyone's wanting more scenes between their favorite characters. Part of the problem is both RDA's schedule and the fact that they are shooting multiple episodes at the same time. The latter compounds the problems as it means that they can't have everyone in the scenes with RDA because they are filming other episodes.

I guess there's no way to please everyone under these conditions. I certainly have no problem with Jack and Daniel, or Jack and Teal'c scenes; my favorite moment in Avatar, for example, was the little exchange between Jack and Teal'c at the end. OTOH, as a shipper, I wouldn't want to lose scenes between Sam and Jack, either. I fully understand that, offered a choice, you would go for Jack and Daniel scenes, and I would pick Jack and Sam.

However, there have definitely been posts (some quite recent) that have argued that ship is the reason that Jack's and Daniel's friendship hit some rocky stretches. Yet, many of these same posters claim that Jack doesn't really care about Sam that way. This seems very inconsistent to me. It also is without any support in the show. From a logic standpoint, why should the fact that Jack may have romantic feelings toward Sam affect how he feels toward Daniel or Teal'c? He was Frank Cromwell's friend while he was married to Sara. People are capable of caring about a lot of different people, in different ways.

And, other than the fact that these posters feel that, at a certain point, Jack and Daniel were not getting along all that well, there has been nothing in the show to support any claim that this was the result of Jack's feelings toward Sam (if you believe they are there).

In regard to Evol. 2: there were two scenes that could have been seen as shippy but could also have been seen as a CO interested in his 2IC's first hard mission in command (yes, she led in "Spirits" and "Nightwalkers", but this was a very different type of mission. They were going behind enemy lines and in a place where they could not be helped) and as a pair of friends.

More importantly--and I know from responses on this thread when this was mentioned before that this is a hot button for some people--I do think slash may have played a part (I do have to admit that why it's not OK to suggest that slash might impact the Jack-Daniel friendship, but all right to make ship the only villain, is beyond me). Several months before Evol aired--enough time to make cuts in the show--I saw posts on lists where I knew that at least one member of the creative staff lurked, that talked about how they were looking forward to Evol because it would be Jack and Daniel alone in the jungle, hot sweaty bodies and torn shirts. (And, no, the posts did not read as women who just wanted to ogle the men) Something like this could very lead them to edit the show differently.

I have no reason to believe, from anything I've seen on the show, that Jack does not see Daniel as a friend or that he does not care about him (I will admit that I've always felt that Jack and Teal'c were closer friends, because they have so much in common, but that did not mean that I did not think that Jack and Daniel were close friends as well) any longer. he was certainly concerned enough in Icon to lose his temper momentarily with Sam (just as he was concerned enough about Sam in Grace to be short with Daniel).

Heck, name one person Jack *hasn't* snarled at!


J.

[DarkQuee1]

GateGipsy Ah very interesting points. But can't really answer them here without going off topic. I'll see if I can dig up the Daniel Discussion thread for that. Or perhaps it could fit in the Daniel/Jack Friendship discussion? If you don't mind me quoting you elsewhere?

Sure. Go ahead. Will I need a flame retardant suit?


J.

[Madeleine]

Nope, come as you are

[Dani347]

However, there have definitely been posts (some quite recent) that have argued that ship is the reason that Jack's and Daniel's friendship hit some rocky stretches. Yet, many of these same posters claim that Jack doesn't really care about Sam that way. This seems very inconsistent to me. It also is without any support in the show. From a logic standpoint, why should the fact that Jack may have romantic feelings toward Sam affect how he feels toward Daniel or Teal'c? He was Frank Cromwell's friend while he was married to Sara. People are capable of caring about a lot of different people, in different ways.

J.

Ship *scenes* are (imo) one of the reasons why the Jack and Daniel friendship had been almost nil in season 7. Within the scenes, it didn't look like RDA was acting like Jack cared about Sam romantically, but the scenes themselves were still there. Jack could sleep through the scenes, and as long as they were still there on screen, they still had an effect. These are two different things. Jack having romantic feelings for Sam isn't effecting the friendships (imo) because he doesn't have those feelings. TPTB trying to create the illusion (and, sorry shippers, this is my opinion that it's an illusion. Can't change my opinion) that he does, and putting him in scenes with Sam that they want to look shippy, has effected the friendship. And, I could bring up times that support it on the show (like Evolution2) but you wouldn't agree, so what can I do. I see it as support, you don't. No way to solve a difference of opinion. And, logically, no, if Jack does have romantic feelings it shouldn't effect how he feels about Daniel, or Teal'c. Which is why season 7 was so frustrating, because although it shouldn't have, it was filmed in a way to make it seem like it did. They weren't being logical. Which is why I say they can't write ship and friendship.

And, just for reference, this isn't the only show where I've seen this happen. When they paired Carter and Abby on ER, they almost completely cut scenes between Carter and Deb, whom he had had a very special friendship, that I wanted to turn shippy, but never did. But, I enjoyed their friendship for what it was, and they seemed to drop it totally. Also, they stopped any scenes between him and Susan, who had also been a friend for a long time. There was no reason why he shouldn't have scenes with two characters he had been close friends with for years, but there it was. So,in my mind, real world logic and the minds of tv writers don't mix.

[the dancer of spaz]

I don't understand why people aren't answering col ga's questions. I mean, if I was new to this, I'd be screwed (mainly because I'm an idiot ), so I can understand the potential confusion. I get unbelievably lost on shipper threads!

[PX-Something-or-another]

Meh, I admit I'm a Sam/Daniel shipper, so, torch me now, lol. Anyways, I try to stray from these, since, while ship is a part of SG-1, it's not big.