General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ubiquitous]

Hmm I think that was meant to "Ship triangles aren't such a /bad/ thing" *makes note to edit* But I agree, a relationship can't stay stagnant. Personally, I think that the T/S has possibly already hit the point of stagnation and S/W might hit it soon. T/R though, I think would fare bettter i the short run at least. But I think that's also a reason why I prefer minor character pairings generally, because we only see small glimpses of them and thus their 'dynamics' seem to be either evolving or in an equilibrium.

[Dani347]

Pulling this up to ask a question. There are a whole lot of ship threads, and I have to wonder, do people really see ship for all these pairings? I mean, I know some are jokes. No one really is advocating Sam and Thor in a relationship. Right? Right? *backs slowly away* But, other than that, I wonder if my definition of ship is the same as everyone else's. Sometimes, and this is just my impression, it seems that shipper threads start either when there's a hint of chemistry between the actors (at least to those who see it) or that the actors look good together. And, while chemistry is an essential ingredient to ship, there has to be more for there to actually be ship. In my mind. I'm firmly in the anti Jack/Sam and Daniel/Vala ship camp. The one, I see no chemistry. The other, I do see chemistry but like i said, chemistry doesn't automatically translate to a romantic relationship, which is what ship is. (And that concludes the duh! we knew that part of the post). But, I can see that other people do see a sense of feelings between the pair that can lead to a relationship. But, do people actually see ship or the possibility of ship between Mitchell and Vala? Who haven't exchanged more than 3 sentences if that? Maybe they do. Or, is it a response to the chemistry the actors have, either because you saw it from Farscape, or you sense it here (again, there's all sorts of chemistry and some that has nothing to do with the characters and how they relate to each other. Sometimes characters that are enemies have great chemistry, and not in a "I hate you, I hate you, lets get it on, I love you" type way). Is the shipping done in the literal sense of the word, where you either see a relationship or see deep feelings (of something other than human caring or friendship) between the characters, or in some cases is it a more casual, "these characters together give off sparks" kind of thing?

[ShadowMaat]

I don't think it even goes that far, Dani. Most ship threads seem to be created for the express purpose of creating ship threads. They're havens for people to hang out, talking fluff, and trying to find scenes/dialogue/looks to "prove" their ship is "true", and the more challenging/unlikely a ship is, the greater the chances of it having its own ship thread.

Personally, I don't understand that kind of thinking at all. But then, I'm not a teenager anymore and I don't see the point of all the silliness inherent in unlikely/impossible pairs. One or two "fun" ship threads is one thing, but putting two people together just because you can?? Uh... WHY?

Ship, to me, means a real, HONEST chance at romance between two characters: it's chemistry, looks, AND dialogue, plus a hundred other little things (including suitability and logic). But I think you're right: the definition of ship seems to have changed, because I'd say that a good half (or more) of the ship threads I've seen are completely nonsensical. They seem to exist more as places to "have fun" and to chatter, rather than to have anything remotely resembling a serious discussion.

But, of course, not EVERY thread has to be serious all the time, right? Call me a spoilsport if you will, it certainly wouldn't be the first time, but I still think that even for a character/ship section, there's an awful lot of fluff floating around.

[UhSir]

I completely agree about the fluff. I believe most of the threads exist solely for that. Some of the people who come to this forum are here for the nonsensical shipping, and that's all. I figure it's their chance for escaping real-life, much like me watching Road Runner cartoons. Oy, we don't want to start psychoanalyzing here do we? Nah!

I do ship for Sam and Jack. I won't start any debate on that. I promise. That's the only ship I see. (well, did see in the early seasons...) The rest of 'em? Uh uh.

I think the writers are pointedly NOT writing ship. I think they feel a sense of being burned by it with Sam and Jack and they are avoiding it now.

[Dani347]

No of course all threads don't have to be serious. It's just some threads are clearly serious, where people do see ship the way I define it, and the way you do, Shadow. And, although I don't see what they see as evidence of it, I can see how they came to the conclusion. And, again, there are the threads where it's clearly just for fun. It's just those murky threads I was wondering about. Where I can't tell if they are serious, or just fun.

[UhSir]

Oh, I get ya!

I don't think it is possible to determine whether a thread is serious or fun. Reason being, and scary thought: even if it was started for fun, there may well be somebod(y/ies) there who are totally serious.

[ShadowMaat]

Yeah. For example, I know some folks who get royally pissed if you suggest that Sam/Thor is anything less than totally serious. Whether it's a joking outrage or serious, I dunno, but it sure reads as serious.

Personally, I think it'd be better to have some kind of uber all-inclusive thread for all the silly ships. It seems as if a lot of the same people all hang out on the various illogical ship threads. Might swave a bit on the... clutter, although I'm sure they'd all be GROSSLY offended by the suggestion.

[ShadowMaat]

Bringing this to the fore again as an unsubtle hint.

Some shippers feel the need for validation on the show. Why do you think you deserve it? And how much is enough?

Others think that ship has already been overdefined on the show. How? And what sort of resolution would you prefer instead? What makes you think your solution is better?

[Easter Lily]

You're right. No matter what they do with ship, some one or group will be dissatisfied. But that's true of any story, right? And the point is they CHOSE to explore that story arc in great depth last season. And the implication is that they both are at a point where they were ready to consider pursuing something...so then it makes sense that Threads would actually lead to something, wouldn't you think? Otherwise, Sam would be Lt. Colonel Samantha Shanahan right now and Jack would be with Kerry. That would have killed ship pretty convincingly too had Sam wed Pete...I know I would have a hard time wanting her to break her wedding vows to be with Jack. As I read it, the PTB at least intended for people to see that there was potential for more in the future.

But instead, after all that build up, there was a whole lot of nothing. We saw no in depth conversation or even that there was one off screen. Just "not exactly."

I don't believe that overall I disagree with how badly the whole arc has been handled but where I think the bone of contention is whether or not this ship has really been all that good for the character. My personal opinion is that it hasn't. For me to see more of this relationship portrayed onscreen would be more detrimental to the character and the integrity of the show than if they just left it alone. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this.
Therein lies the problem... There is such a diverse range of views regarding this that no matter what the writers/producers did, it would incur some kind of derision because the way in which this relationship has transpired has been inconsistent. For the detractors it's been a relief not to be subject to any more awkward Sam and Jack moments and for the supporters there's been much disappointment.

So...since they chose to go there, they need to be fair to the Carter character by showing us she didn't go through that emotional rollercoaster for nothing...not to mention her fans and the fans of ship that wanted something definitive onscreen.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't take very much on Stargate very seriously. To me it's escapist fare. While I like the show and enjoy it for what it is... I don't feel the strong need to see characters "validated"... because they belong to an unreal world in unreal situations. I don't relate to them as I do my colleagues or loved ones. I may like them for what they represent but in no way do I imagine to be real people that "deserve" a certain outcome. Because it is "just" a television show to me, that notion of fairness doesn't even enter into it. But more importantly, because this is fiction and we're just outsiders observing, there's so much diversity in thinking about how characters should end up. To this day, I'm perennially annoyed when I read or watch Little Women that Jo never ends up with Laurie after all that they go through but it's Lousia's novel and Louisa has chosen to go that way. However much I think that it's "unfair" on Laurie and on me to have emotionally invested in that story that Jo goes after older Bhaer, it really doesn't change the fact that the story goes the way it does.

If they don't ever return to it on some small level...it does a disservice to Carter's character because really, what was the point of it all if they were going to drop it...and also to her fans who want to see the well rounded Carter who can actually be a kickbutt soldier and scientist and be involved at the same time as they aren't mutually exclusive concepts (contrary to popular belief). And unlike some other shippers, I don't need to see a wedding or anything, just a sense that indeed that aspect of her is alive and well even though we will primarily see soldier Sam onscreen.

Well, the thing is, I don't see the ship angle as being the least bit necessary to Carter's development as an all-rounded person. Many would probably see it as a point of weakness rather than a point of strength. Her non-romantic interactions with other characters were much more instrumental in her emotional development than her on and off, relationship-that-might-be with Jack ever was.

To me this is just another story arc left hanging...kind of like the leadership issue...so it puzzles me that there are so many dangling threads for Sam...leadership, ship, Jolinar, Cassie, etc...and yet they say they "don't know what to do with her." Hey, here's an idea...how about continuing her story in all its facets and not pigeonhole her just to be the one who dishes the techie dialogue all the time.

Just an idea.

Stargate has had a long history of dangling threads that are never resolved so I suppose it shouldn't really surprise anyone that Sam Carter is no different. Unfortunately they have pigeonholed her to such an extent that her emotional life is tied with "how I feel about Jack today" that now that he's gone they really don't know what to do with her as an emotional entity. The pendulum has swung to extremes and now, they paying for it.

[ShadowMaat]

THANK YOU, Lilly. It's nice to know ONE person was kind enough to listen to me.

Personally, I'm sick of the whole ship issue. I'm sick of it being shoved down our throats on the show (both of them, actually), I'm sick of it being shoved down our throats by fans, I'm sick of the ones who scream about validation and how they "deserve" it, I'm sick of the ones who attack anyone who disagrees with them (whatever "side" they're on), I'm sick of being accused of not understanding love or of being unloved or of being blind because I can't "see" it. I'm sick of the ones goading things on. I'm sick of how the subject infects other subjects. I'm sick of the hypocrisy. I'm sick of talking about it.

[Jace021903]

Well, the thing is, I don't see the ship angle as being the least bit necessary to Carter's development as an all-rounded person. Many would probably see it as a point of weakness rather than a point of strength. Her non-romantic interactions with other characters were much more instrumental in her emotional development than her on and off, relationship-that-might-be with Jack ever was.

Stargate has had a long history of dangling threads that are never resolved so I suppose it shouldn't really surprise anyone that Sam Carter is no different. Unfortunately they have pigeonholed her to such an extent that her emotional life is tied with "how I feel about Jack today" that now that he's gone they really don't know what to do with her as an emotional entity. The pendulum has swung to extremes and now, they paying for it.

Well said. Vitual greens for you.

I didn't say validate Sam. Sam doesn't need any validation as a character by a man or anything else. She's a brilliant, strong and multifaceted character.

Yes, she is. Now if the writers will write her that way...

I did say however that it would validate the emotional journey she started back with Grace, where she decided she wanted to have all she could out of life including loving someone and being loved in return and then questioned if her feelings for Jack were rooted solely in the fact that he was outside of her grasp. So she tried a relationship with someone else only to realize that her feelings for Jack were genuine and that was, in part, why she had to dump him (albeit ever so unceremoniously).

And after all the focus on her and Jack's feelings for each other...I get a "not exactly" to tide me over for Season 9.

That was my point actually. The fans want the validation for sticking with story for several years. But the show's not over and Sam's "journey" is ongoing. They don't want to definately tie her up with a storyline that they won't pursue onscreen.

Easter Lily's example of Little Women is a good one. I was crushed that Jo and Laurie didn't get together at first, but in the long run it was better for the character and the story and the sequels.
When you think about it, in most of the classics the love birds *don't* get together in the end; it actually makes a better story. Romeo and Juliet, Cassablanca, Tale of Two Cities, Luke and Laura ...

Jace

[Easter Lily]

THANK YOU, Lilly. It's nice to know ONE person was kind enough to listen to me.

Personally, I'm sick of the whole ship issue. I'm sick of it being shoved down our throats on the show (both of them, actually), I'm sick of it being shoved down our throats by fans, I'm sick of the ones who scream about validation and how they "deserve" it, I'm sick of the ones who attack anyone who disagrees with them (whatever "side" they're on), I'm sick of being accused of not understanding love or of being unloved or of being blind because I can't "see" it. I'm sick of the ones goading things on. I'm sick of how the subject infects other subjects. I'm sick of the hypocrisy. I'm sick of talking about it.

It's fandom vehemently pushing the "ship" agenda that troubles me most. I'm not against ship on principle but individuals pushing their perspective on the issue even in non-ship threads. Also, I don't think the Joe Mallozzi's thread should be used as a veiled "petition" or wish list, whether it's about Sam, Vala or Jack. I don't believe that much pleading does much good... it just sets oneself up for huge disappointments.

[Shep'sSocks]

I don't mind the odd petition in Joe's thread, it's the constant one person posts and all their mates post as well.

[Uber]

One may have varying opinions as to whether or not ship was good for Carter or Jack or whoever...but at this point none of that is relevant anymore. Neither is it relevant as to whether or not people wanted them to be together or if people perceived chemistry between them. Since this is where the writers chose to take things, then they need to finish what they started. Otherwise, the entire story arc was completely meaningless.

And since Carter's the one who is left, it's her character that will continue to bare the brunt of the ire. Of course no matter what's done, someone will be irked but at least if they're consistent and show Carter as someone who went through an emotional rollercoaster and came out the other side a stronger, more well-rounded character who isn't all focused on just work all the time but actually does have a life outside the SGC, then the painful saga will at least have meant something.

I'd hate to think that the final chapter after years of build up is "not exactly"...I mean that's fine for the moment, but I hope they follow through with something definitive onscreen next year while continuing to show Carter as a strong, brilliant scientist/soldier.

[Shep'sSocks]

The entire storyline was completely meaningless from the getgo. It was stupid, irrelevant, and made Carter look idiotic.