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    Originally posted by ShadowMaat

    I'm watching Stargate for the PLOTS. I'm watching Stargate for the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. If I wanted to watch characters moon over each other and entangle themselves in their complicated love lives, I'd watch a soap opera. I don't want to see it on Stargate becase, for me, it takes away from the REAL stories. Every moment spent on ship is a moment NOT spent on furthering the plot or exploring the characters. Some people consider ship to be another form of character development. I say it brings the show to a grinding halt every time.
    I'm one of those ppl that sees romance 'as' character developement. Of course, it depends on how it's done, but I'm basically fine on how it's being on Stargate. I don't want Pete around, but I'm not going to blast his participation because if the roles were reversed -Jack romancing Sam like this instead- I'd certainly not be complaining. I love the scifi of Stargate, but I also love -even more- the ppl experiencing the situations. I've just always been more interested in character developement over the actual situation happening in the movie or show. The movie Abyss was a *great* scifi story, but I absolutely LOVED the love story going on at the same time. To me, it was the heart of the story. To me, Sam, Jack, Teal'c, and Daniel are the heart of Stargate, and including their personal lives brings me even closer to understanding and loving them. I guess it's personal taste.


    The views of anti-shippers, as has been so kindly pointed out by a variety of sources, don't matter.
    I don't think it's that the views of anti shippers don't matter, it's just that ship is a very popular concept. And I mean ship/romance in movies, books, shows, songs, etc. It's universally loved and popular, so maybe they're selling what the majority of ppl in the world want. I know I'm taking your thought and expanding it pretty big, but I really think it's the case. Romance is popular, no matter what your age, sex, religion, etc is. I know that Law and Order is very popular, but I've never really gotten 'into' it because it veers away from the personal lives of the ppl solving the crimes. It's a unique concept for TV, but I really think that impersonal touch is what's kept me away from 'loving' the show. I really am expanding on this idea, but I think it all plays into the same thing; their personal lives. I like Teal'c getting an apartment, Daniel struggling with his demons, Jack going fishing, Sam trying to get that life while in the middle of a mini mid-life crisis. It's not just the icing on the cake, it's the secret ingredient and special flavor.


    Ship is "canon", ship is gonna happen. If we don't like it, we should sit down and shut up or turn the dial because it's TPTB's show and THEY get to decide what THEY want to do with it.
    *snort* That's how I ended up looking at the Sam/PS relationship. Either I handle it or I quit. I don't want to quit, so I'm handling it. But I'm not shutting up about it.

    Sally
    Last edited by majorsal; 02 September 2004, 05:27 PM.
    sally

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      Originally posted by Gategirl12000
      I leave with this thought: Sam+Jack=happily ever after. My question is why can't the writers grasp such a simple mathematical concept?
      See, the thing is, not everyone thinks that way and the writers know this. They have to go for ratings. And the fandom is pretty split right now. I'm an anti-shipper myself and I would hate to see something like that just shoved directly in my face, especially if it occurred in the middle of a season and all the episodes after that contained a bunch of ship. If it was at the end of the last season and it was definitely the last season then I might not mind. If it was really, really subliminal enough so that the shippers knew it, but myself and other anti-shippers couldn't really see it might make everyone happy, except of course for the Sam/Pete shippers. So ship of any kind ends up being a pretty controversial thing to put directly into the show.
      Why yes, I am aware that I am too sexy for my cat
      RIP Stargate SG-1: The iris may be closed, but the gate will always be spinning, lighting the chevrons in my heart

      And to the Sci Fi Channel...

      Comment


        Originally posted by Feli
        What's your favorite pairing other/besides Jack and Sam?
        My favorite other pairings OTHER than J/S?
        Hmmm… that could be interesting… Have to think on that one…
        Daniel & Osiris? (No… you didn’t hear me wrong… I did not say Sarah & Daniel )
        Perhaps Daniel & Janet? (Guess I’d like to see Daniel with strong-willed women??! )
        Originally posted by Feli
        What do you think of ship in a ship?
        Very hard to do in cramped quarters!
        Originally posted by Feli
        What are the pros and cons of inserting romance into a sci-fi show?
        Well, so far you’ve nearly 500 thoughtful & thought-provoking posts in response… I’m not sure what my wee humble opinions might add to the discussion, but here it goes….

        A definite con, as stated several times in this Thread, is that it is usually impossible for Powers That Be to make all of their viewers happy all of the time with regards to any kind of ship. But my feeling (echoing other posters here) is SG’s PTB just need to decide where they’re going with it, write & present it well (let me emphasize that again – GOOD writing… GOOD presentation) and stick to it. And, at least for me, little old me... give the characters a bit more dialogue to give me the backstory to make their (TPTB) viewpoints known & canon. (Like, for example, I'm interested to know exactly what conversation did Sam/Pete have get to the point where Pete thinks he can pop a stalker joke on her before proposing? Everyone, please don’t take that the wrong way, I don’t mean for that to be a point of contention in this thread… I only mean that I personally am interested in what happened to make her OK with it and without TPTB directly addressing it, I can only speculate about what might have been discussed between S/P… I would have liked to have heard through S/P’s mouths what TPTB had in mind.)

        My own person opinion is that romantic relationships can and do have their place in sci-fi just as any other type of ‘ship’ does whether it be team-ship, friend-ship, enemy-ship

        SG1 would just be about a MALP going through that shimmering circle thing that looks like a swimming pool, and then coming back out with lots of digital imagery, atmospheric readings & the occasional soil sample or two, if there wasn’t a human component to it. Humans are going to fight, to hate, to argue, to betray, to be happy, and… to be in & make love. As viewers, IMHO, we’re likely going to identify and connect with a variety of the human emotions the characters demonstrate. I may identify with some emotions, another person will identify more with other emotions, and still yet someone else will be somewhere further down the spectrum of emotions and some won’t identify with the character's emotions at all. And each is a valid viewpoint.
        Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
        My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Gategirl12000
          Sam+Jack=happily ever after. My question is why can't the writers grasp such a simple mathematical concept?
          Funny, I thought Sam+Jack = heavy objects thrown at tv screen, and projectile vomitting.
          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

          Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

          Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


          Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

          Comment


            Originally posted by Liebestraume
            …the human drama -- that of the main characters and how others people impact them -- is what makes their story compelling.

            I followed the show because I wanted to know how the past shaped these people, and I look forward to the new season because I care about what the future holds for them.
            ‘Fleshing’ out the characters is important to me also. Especially when the plot *cough*cough*cough* may have missed its intended mark a bit. I know not everyone agrees with that, and that’s cool. We’re all entitled to our own opinions.
            Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
            My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Skydiver
              i like knowing that their relationships can complicate an issue, i like knowing that the situation of one is more angsty for another because of their relationship...but i don't need all the gory details
              I agree. You see one thing, then you reach a certain threshold and the bar gets raised; it’ll take a bit more to get that same thrill or excitement. Show or do a little more and the bar gets raised a bit more… Until you’ve gone through the ratings alphabet from G to TripleX & have nowhere else to raise the bar to. IMHO, I think that the Chimera ‘skin’ scene, raised the bar for all of the character’s ships, not just S/J ship. Instead of a little of this here & a little of that there, it was a nearly full-blown bedroom scene. I like romance. I like ‘love’ scenes. But I didn’t like that scene. I agree with everyone of any persuasion who thinks that it had no place in SG.
              Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
              My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

              Comment


                Originally posted by bcmilco
                Part of what makes Jack 'Jack', and Sam 'Sam' is their respect and honor, and their devotion to duty. And for me that conflict between duty, honor and love does make it a great story to tell.
                **wish bcmilco was able to come back & play with us, I know I for one miss him**
                But I agree w/him… love stories where the lead characters sacrifice their relationship because of their commitment to their & others’ honor & duty hit you in the breastbone & are that much more poignant because you feel you know what they could have had and are sacrificing for the greater good.
                Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

                Comment


                  Another thing that irritates me to no end- and forgive me if it sounds like I'm aiming this at you, Star, it's a general problem and one you simply reminded me of- I hate it when people assume that because I don't like ship, I don't like to see ANY human emotion on the show. Where the hell does THAT come from? I'd really like to know. Just because I don't want to see two characters "making love" doesn't mean I want to see a bunch of emotionless robots carrying out missions by rote. It means- and try to follow along with me, here: I. Don't. Like. Ship. On a show like Stargate, romance between main characters takes away from MY viewing pleasure. Does this mean I don't want the characters to ever be happy? Does this mean that I don't want to see anything tragic and angsty happen to them? Does this mean I want TPTB to ban all instances of laughter, tears or other emotions? Hell no! All it means is that I, personally, would like to see other emotional avenues explored. I don't think that things should automatically default to love. Two characters can have a deep, meaningful relationship with each other without it having to be romantic. That is what I want to see on Stargate.

                  And just because I object to ship on Stargate doesn't mean I object to all ship EVERYWHERE. I am very much a Luke/Lorelai shipper on Gilmore Girls. I just feel that the formula for Stargate- the premise of the show, the dynamic between the characters and the general chemistry of the actors, is not conducive to a romance-based relationship. Between ANY of them. Outside, offscene relationships don't but me because they tend not to get in the way, but romance between the main characters is IN YOUR FACE all the time, whether it's being directly referred to or not- it's there in every look, in every comment, in the lighting and camera angles and the stupid music... When the main characters are involved, there is no possible way to avoid it.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                    Another thing that irritates me to no end- and forgive me if it sounds like I'm aiming this at you, Star, it's a general problem and one you simply reminded me of- I hate it when people assume that because I don't like ship, I don't like to see ANY human emotion on the show. Where the hell does THAT come from? I'd really like to know.
                    Forgiven.
                    I know you're venting your viewpoint. It's a valid one. **grins** Just as valid as mine.
                    And just for the record - and I acknowledge you weren't 'aiming' your post at me in particular - my comments weren't aimed at anyone else either, they were just thoughts I had after reading through this long thread & thinking about just what 2-cents I wanted to contribute to the cause... errrr... the discussion...

                    Just because I don't want to see two characters "making love" doesn't mean I want to see a bunch of emotionless robots carrying out missions by rote.
                    I don't think anyone's accused you directly here of that have they? **squints around the VR room**
                    It means- and try to follow along with me, here: I. Don't. Like. Ship.
                    LOL. Yep. I. Know. You. Don't. Like. Ship. I understood that one even back in my GW lurking days...
                    On a show like Stargate, romance between main characters takes away from MY viewing pleasure. Does this mean I don't want the characters to ever be happy? Does this mean that I don't want to see anything tragic and angsty happen to them? Does this mean I want TPTB to ban all instances of laughter, tears or other emotions? Hell no!
                    All it means is that I, personally, would like to see other emotional avenues explored. I don't think that things should automatically default to love. Two characters can have a deep, meaningful relationship with each other without it having to be romantic. That is what I want to see on Stargate.
                    Ahhh.... but that is the wonderment of interpretation... that we both see a deep meaningful relationship between 2 characters. You may perhaps see it as two teambuddies who have developed a respectful, caring friendship over many years of working together. Me... I might agree with you on the friendship part & then just put a romantic shippy little spin to top it off. Both equally valid...

                    And just because I object to ship on Stargate doesn't mean I object to all ship EVERYWHERE. I am very much a Luke/Lorelai shipper on Gilmore Girls. I just feel that the formula for Stargate- the premise of the show, the dynamic between the characters and the general chemistry of the actors, is not conducive to a romance-based relationship. Between ANY of them. Outside, offscene relationships don't but me because they tend not to get in the way, but romance between the main characters is IN YOUR FACE all the time, whether it's being directly referred to or not- it's there in every look, in every comment, in the lighting and camera angles and the stupid music... When the main characters are involved, there is no possible way to avoid it.
                    Valid viewpoints Shadow. Not mine, but valid.

                    And, just in case, for anyone who DOESN'T know me (I am pretty sure the Shadow knows) & how I feel about S/J ship.... Subtle S/J ship is the icing on my little SG cupcake.
                    Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                    My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by ShimmeringStar
                      Ahhh.... but that is the wonderment of interpretation... that we both see a deep meaningful relationship between 2 characters. You may perhaps see it as two teambuddies who have developed a respectful, caring friendship over many years of working together. Me... I might agree with you on the friendship part & then just put a romantic shippy little spin to top it off. Both equally valid...
                      Yeah, but the thing of it is, is that S/J ship is now canon. I can no longer see it as "two teambuddies" because I know that the producers are shipping them and that things are supposed to be shippy and romantic. I can't ignore that anymore. Before, there was always the option to see ship or to not see it. Now, it's all ship, ship, ship and throwing poor Pete into the mix hasn't helped, either. If anything, it has made it worse because the producers are still trying to ship Sam and Jack even when Sam is supposed to be with Pete!

                      The "no ship" option has been rather forcefully taken away from me and regardless of whether or not it's "their" show, I still resent it being done.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Liebestraume
                        Any one-on-one relationship, be it romantic or otherwise, is exclusive by its very nature. This does not, however, limit each party solely to this (type of) relationship. To use the example cited above, Daniel's friendship with Jack did not prevent Daniel from forming an emotional bond with Sam. Neither relationship was pushed at the expense of the other, yet it’s fair to say that the dynamic of the D/J relationship is distinctly different from that of D/S. Thus, such exclusive-ness begets the unique texture of each relationship, which in turn enriches the whole showEven the most platonic relationship between two people shuts out the rest of the world, in the sense that it excludes anyone else from that particular relationship. Yes, they could include other people in friendship. But, by definition, this new friendship is distinctly different from the original one-on-one friendship.
                        RE: what I bolded of your post: IMO, that is true of friendships. And teamships. Not just romantic ships. Ships are always dynamic. The ships are always changing as the friends & teammates grow and have more life-changing experiences. Each ship is unique and while each keeps its underlying integrity, it doesn’t remain the static. For example, (MHO) if Daniel had remained as he was in the movie & hadn’t become more of Jack’s emotional and personality equal as he has over the years, I wouldn’t have liked that J/D friendship dynamic as much. I appreciate that he grew & became more comfortable ‘bucking’ up to Jack and more easily able to powerfully get his views across when he needed to.
                        Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                        My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by GateGipsy
                          While I have mixed feelings about Joe's participation in discussions on forums such as GateWorld, I do really feel that one instance, where he made one post in a ship thread (which did not actually reassure the shippers in that thread judging by the discussion afterwards) is rather slim evidence on which to base your impression that TPTB have chosen sides. Especially given that Joe is just one half of a writing duo, who are just one part of the writers on the show - there are a large number of other writers, directors and producers making up the TPTB. And that doesn't even count the suits at MGM.
                          Speaking as a frequenter of the S/J ship discussion thread, JM’s post in that thread didn't do anything for me. IMO, it was a driveby post that can & was interpreted many different ways; meant to titillate, not promote any certain point view on JM or any PTB's part. I liken that post to that day/evening I watched JM "sit" on the Affinity Thread (the night it aired here in the U.S.)the whole time I was on-line… IMHO to be overtly "sitting" on a certain thread begged anyone who knew how to determine where other posters were at to go & see what was going on at that particular thread because JM was “there” & to post while he allegedly watched... Otherwise, he, as any of the rest of us registered posters could & can do, could have sat out there as a "Guest" instead of making it known where he was at/observing. But back to your statement… unless they’re releasing a spoiler or fact as he may do in a Q&A or production notes… I wouldn’t read anything into it.

                          Maybe just as they’re prohibited from reading fanfics & such for legal reasons… we should prohibit ourselves from reading their ‘driveby posts’ for the same reasons & for those given by Shadow in her later post on the thread…
                          Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                          This whole entire thing- Pete, TPTB comments, all the stupid interviews, it's all a huge, childish smokescreen to keep us guessing and at each others' throats about the whole Pete (or anyone else)/Sam/Jack issue. I think it's an incredibly stupid and dangerous move. Fandom is hostile and fractured enough as it is without rubbing salt in the wounds.
                          Y'know, one step towards better understanding among the factions is to not be constantly on the offensive, to stop taking umbrage at everything said and to quit attacking each other's opinions.
                          Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                          My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ShimmeringStar
                            Maybe just as they’re prohibited from reading fanfics & such for legal reasons… we should prohibit ourselves from reading their ‘driveby posts’
                            BAN Joe from Gateworld?? LOL! I know that isn't what you said, but it still amuses me. And imagine if you COULD get everyone to- for example- put Joe on ignore. How hysterical would that be?? Joe posts something and gets universally ignored. Muahaha. That appeals to the sadist in me. It'll never happen, but it's good for a chuckle...

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by ShadowMa’at
                              Yeah, but the thing of it is, is that S/J ship is now canon.
                              OK, let me play devil’s advocate… (and I know I’m opening the can of worms…) But really, is S/J ship canon? Sam had a pretty darn big knock on the head in “Grace.” Would the delusional ramblings of a character with a concussion be canon? One could argue she wasn’t in her right mind & that she could be having a mid-life crisis that she projected into her hallucination & she was only putting Jack in the hallucination where one “inserts virile man here” because she wasn’t currently dating anyone at that time… And anything that could be construed as S/J shippy in “Lost City” & “Heroes”… those shows were after Chimera, after it is canon that she has an established relationship w/Pete and showed the same interactions S/J have always had….
                              I can no longer see it as "two teambuddies" because I know that the producers are shipping them and that things are supposed to be shippy and romantic.
                              I respectfully differ w/you here. Not that I’m particularly wide-read when it comes to PTB interviews… but most of the ones that I have seen… IMHO, they don’t seem like S/J shippers to me. At times I’ve gotten the distinct impression they wanted to strangle RDA & AT for inserting more ship in their acting. (‘Course I wondered why they didn’t just edit it out, or DIRECT the actors to cool their heels, if TPTB didn’t want that particular ship as they were quoted as saying… )
                              I can't ignore that anymore. Before, there was always the option to see ship or to not see it. Now, it's all ship, ship, ship and throwing poor Pete into the mix hasn't helped, either.
                              Y’think? To me, just me wee humble opinion, season 8 has had S/J ship in drydock.
                              If anything, it has made it worse because the producers are still trying to ship Sam and Jack even when Sam is supposed to be with Pete!
                              Guess if we get into the finer details of interpreting how RDA/AT’s eyeballs & muscles are moving … we might squeeeeeze ship outta it. Or not. But you do bring up a concern of mine also - how either of them appear to us viewers shipping each other when they have their respective other relationships going on…
                              The "no ship" option has been rather forcefully taken away from me and regardless of whether or not it's "their" show, I still resent it being done.
                              Sorry you feel that way. I’d hoped you’d enjoy the shows airing right now as there’s only (MHO) miniscule ship to be found…
                              Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                              My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                                BAN Joe from Gateworld?? LOL! I know that isn't what you said, but it still amuses me. And imagine if you COULD get everyone to- for example- put Joe on ignore. How hysterical would that be?? Joe posts something and gets universally ignored. Muahaha. That appeals to the sadist in me. It'll never happen, but it's good for a chuckle...
                                Anytime, anytime!
                                I could never ignore Joe, tho. Haven't been able to bring myself to use the 'ignore' function on anyone. Yet. In fact got Joe on my buddy list just so's I can see if he's on when I'm on... But he hasn't been "officially" by GW lately from what I can tell... (and being on the U.S. East Coast... I'm ususally trying to catch the zzzzzzz's by the time he'd be on in the West Coast...)

                                But that would be a real PTB eyeopener, wouldn't it?

                                "Gateworld Forum regulars ignore popular SG PTB"

                                Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
                                My SG fanfic! ..Click Here.

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