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    Originally posted by ShimmeringStar
    ...it is usually impossible for Powers That Be to make all of their viewers happy all of the time with regards to any kind of ship
    I never hung out in any fandom before this, but I know there are people here who have. *Are* there any pairings that were pretty much universally liked (or at least universally not-disliked)? Willow and Tara? Sheridan and Delenn? Leia and Han? The Red Dwarf Scutters?

    Madeleine

    Comment


      Originally posted by ShimmeringStar
      Guess if we get into the finer details of interpreting how RDA/AT’s eyeballs & muscles are moving … we might squeeeeeze ship outta it.
      I realize you put a grin in there, but it still comes off a little facetious to me. Please give me SOME credit for understanding the difference between eye movements and actual "shippy" scenes.

      The scene in Heroes is one example (IMO) of Sam acting counter to her relationship with Pete. Another example is the scene in Lost City, which I have not seen myself (thank the gods) but which I've heard about in detail from shippers and antishippers alike.

      There are also scenes which are filmed in a way to make them "shippy". There is a "shippy" theme which plays in the background, the cameras are angled to emphasize it, the lighting is dimmed and focused just right... Evolution has a good example of that.

      As for Sam's "hallucination", it must have at least been based on something. I have a good imagination, but it isn't good enough to play that off as just a wildly deviant figment of Sam's imagination.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Madeleine_W
        *Are* there any pairings that were pretty much universally liked (or at least universally not-disliked)? Willow and Tara? Sheridan and Delenn? Leia and Han? The Red Dwarf Scutters?
        Are there people who didn't like Sheridan and Delenn? I never got into the show too deeply and I wouldn't say I was a S/D shipper, but it never bothered me. It seemed natural to the storyline- unlike SOME shows I could mention.

        Never cared for Willow/Tara, myself. Again, I wasn't deeply into the show, but I could never shake the feeling that they paired those two as a ratings/publicity stunt. I know it probably wasn't, but that's the vibe I got.

        Leia and Han? Can't see how folks can object to that one. Can't exactly ship Leia and Luke without getting really creepy. And Leia/Chewie just doesn't work for me. Sorry.

        Red Dwarf Scutters? I don't think I want to know. Liked the books, hated the show.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ShadowMaat
          I realize you put a grin in there, but it still comes off a little facetious to me. Please give me SOME credit for understanding the difference between eye movements and actual "shippy" scenes.
          If I have offended you, I apologize.

          It was not meant to be facetious and it most definitely was not meant to be directed at you personally. Guess I didn't get the memo that this is a "serious" thread. No humor nor lightheartedness allowed in the discussion. Will try to remember that in the future.

          I only meant that in our (we the posters, we the viewers) discussions, we can get bogged down with the minutae in giving our interpretations of a certain phrase, a certain look, the musical score...
          Convention Pix Shore Leave ('06 to '09), AT2, AT3, & AT4 ('06, '08, & '09), and Vancouver ('07)
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          Comment


            Originally posted by ShimmeringStar
            No humor nor lightheartedness allowed in the discussion. Will try to remember that in the future.
            *sigh*

            Humor and light-heartedness are fine, but my post was fairly serious and to have you make light of it... it just struck me the wrong way. And I took it as being aimed specifically at me because you quoted my post and the rest of everything you said DID seem to be a reply to me.

            Yes, fandom does get bogged down in the niggly little things. That's why it's called fandom. We're fanatical about things. I agonized for three days over how to utilize the Wraith finger guards in a story because I didn't want it to be wrong. I can be extremely anal about details.

            I can joke about a lot of things, but I have certain opinions which are engraved in stone. I don't like to play around with them.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ShadowMaat
              Just because a relationship is newer doesn't make it any less real or valid and it doesn't mean that a relationship that has been going on for years is better or more deserving of attention. Obviously, you feel differently, but as far as I am personally concerned, new relationships and old relationships share equal value. There may be variances along the way, there may be places where the "older" relationship is better, but the "newer" one is better in other places. I think they balance out pretty well in terms of worthiness.

              The old married couple may be familiar with one another's nuances, they may have a better understanding of who they are and who/what the other person is and that may lend them a great deal of ease in communication, but the newlyweds are still full of fire and excitement and paths unexplored, nuances to find and figure out, breakdowns in communication that lead to greater understanding. Newer isn't always bad. Unless you're talking about pop music.

              Anyway, that's MY take on things...
              Plus there are those of us who've only seen it since the bells and whistles started going off the past couple of years. I DEFINITELY never saw it in S1-S3. S4 I just blamed on Sam's hairdo.
              Webbgirl
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              Comment


                Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                Speaking personally, I'm getting tired of having to answer the same questions, I'm tired of covering the same territory repeatedly as folks "try and understand" where I'm coming from and why I can't tolerate ship. I don't like ship. Why is that such a problem?

                You want to know why I don't like it? Fine. As I've said, both here here, on the anti-ship thread and elsewhere, I think that Sam and Jack have zero chemistry. Sure, they're friends, but I can't see it as anything more than that and every time the producers try and pull off a shippy scene it comes off looking forced. RDA in particular stops acting like Jack and starts acting like RDA trying to get through a tedious scene. Age isn't as much of a factor as interests: I don't think they share any, beyond the bare basics of the job. Opposites may attract, but not always and not in their case, not in MY opinion.

                Pete may not be as smart as Sam, but few people are (with the exception of McKay). At least Pete doesn't act dumber than he really is. If there's one thing guaranteed to irritate me, it's a character who intentionally acts like an idiot. Jack's obtuseness was mildly amusing the first few years of the show, but TPTB seem to have latched onto the concept to exploit it for all it's worth and in the process they've made Jack dumber. In my opinion. I know not every character can be super-intelligent, but I would like for most of them to at least be reasonably intelligent and sometimes I really wonder about Jack. "Dumb jock" are not my idea of a good character.

                As I've said, I wasn't always so intolerant of ship. I was willing to live and let live and I even enjoyed some of the subtler moments of ship in the earlier seasons. Unfortunately, "subtle" seems to have been struck from TPTB's dictionary. The more forceful they make ship (which I already don't see as being realistic), the more they try to shove it down our throats instead of leaving it up to the fans to decide, the more I hate it.

                I'm watching Stargate for the PLOTS. I'm watching Stargate for the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. If I wanted to watch characters moon over each other and entangle themselves in their complicated love lives, I'd watch a soap opera. I don't want to see it on Stargate becase, for me, it takes away from the REAL stories. Every moment spent on ship is a moment NOT spent on furthering the plot or exploring the characters. Some people consider ship to be another form of character development. I say it brings the show to a grinding halt every time.

                I like Pete. I like what he does for Sam and the side of her he brings out whenever they're together. That I like because it's something different from what we usually see of her and because it's positive. Pete makes Sam HAPPY (generally speaking). S/J shippy stuff tends to make her look angsty and miserable and uncertain and incompetent. Maybe those are aspects of her character, too, but I think there are better ways to explore that part of her than by having her get all moopy over her boss.

                I don't like Sam/Jack and the producers have seen to it that I will never tolerate them as a couple. Putting them together would, for me, undermine the entire purpose of the show. It would (and has, in a few eps) cease being about exploration of the universe and defense of the planet and it would be about the love lives and personal "interactions" of the characters. Particularly TWO of them. Ship, in my view, automatically elevates the importance of Jack and Sam above all other characters and that, to me, is grossly unfair. But that's also exactly what we're going to get because TPTB seem hellbent and determined to put Sam and Jack together. The views of anti-shippers, as has been so kindly pointed out by a variety of sources, don't matter. Ship is "canon", ship is gonna happen. If we don't like it, we should sit down and shut up or turn the dial because it's TPTB's show and THEY get to decide what THEY want to do with it.

                Sorry, but if I don't like something, I'm going to say so.

                I hope that answers your questions.
                That was seriously, like, the best explanation I've ever read. I don't agree with all of it, of course, but that post is definitely one to which you'll want to refer in the future. I think it covered every point imaginable.

                I'm not gonna bother with the quote-and-respond deal, because (a) I think y'all know where I stand, and (b) like I said, it's pretty well-said from an anti-shipper's POV.

                I dig ship. *shrugs* And life goes on.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                  Speaking personally, I'm getting tired of having to answer the same questions, I'm tired of covering the same territory repeatedly as folks "try and understand" where I'm coming from and why I can't tolerate ship. I don't like ship. Why is that such a problem?
                  This isn't a problem.Sorry if you took it that way. As a newbie I just wanted to get to know other people points of view.And my questions were for all the anti-shippers,not specifically for you.Having said that I'm grateful that you've answered.This was really great post.

                  Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                  I hope that answers your questions.
                  Yes, thank you.I don't agree with some things you said but I can understand them.
                  There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                  Comment


                    Originally posted by GateGipsy
                    Hi DQ, I don't actually get what you're saying here. Slash is purely projection - I'm not a slasher in any show but there's one show - The Professionals - that I love watching and chatting about from a slash viewpoint because it is a lot of fun. However, there isn't any actual sexual or romantic relationship in the show between the two male leads nor is there in Stargate.

                    I totally agree that there is no slash, even in the dreaded "subtext", in Stargate. However, no show exists in a vacuum. They are affected by things going on around them (pulling the Buffy ep because of Columbine, for example). There are Daniel fans who believe that their campaign had an effect on bringing DJ back (I'm not looking to discuss whether it did or didn't, which is not on topic here). Either fan interests, wants and actions affect the show or they don't.

                    TPTB are aware of slash and posts like the ones to which I referred also let them know the way some fans are viewing certain things, in this case, seeing a slashy subtext. Everyone involved in SciFi seems to want to increase the 18-49 year-old male demographic. When TPTB read posts like that, it is not unreasonable to assume that they might be concerned that having Jack fall all over Daniel and angst over him--angsting is a real fan thing!--and/or hug and the like, might make them (to the male audience) look like--in the words of a state governor not particularly respected in my household <<g>>--"girlie men".

                    My only point was that I think that slash being out there *does* impact on the show, but that some fans take the position that it is reprehensible to suggest such a thing. I think it's just being realistic. And I also think that it is mistaken to blame ship for everything that occurs on the show, in terms of friendships and relationships, that you don't like. There are many factors to be considered, some of them part of the universe (like the dark arc) and some of them external.


                    J.
                    "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Webbgirl
                      Plus there are those of us who've only seen it since the bells and whistles started going off the past couple of years. I DEFINITELY never saw it in S1-S3. S4 I just blamed on Sam's hairdo.

                      Matter of perception then. I saw interest from the start. Not love immediately; that takes time to grow. And the show did it the right way, slowly.

                      I don't see that ship elevates Sam and Jack above the others. It's one thread among many, and all of the characters have storylines that emphasize them. Does the ascension story arc elevate Daniel above the others? Does Jack's having the Ancient gene or being Thor's special friend elevate him above the others?

                      RDA's time is limited and the shooting of multiple episodes at the same time mean that we are simply going to see fewer scenes with all four of them. We tend to see two and two, in order to get the eps done. I fail to see why the *show* would be any better if the pairings were Jack and Daniel/ Sam and Teal'c, rather than Jack and Sam/Daniel and Teal'c. Yes, depending on your preferred characters, you might also have a preferred pairing, but that doesn't improve or damage the show one way or the other.

                      I agree that I think that RDA went over the line with Jack on occasion, in his effort to make (as he termed it) Jack an "Everyman", but we have seen enough on the show to know that Jack is smart (when RDA is not playing it up), that he has solved problems the more academic members of his team could not solve because they were looking for too abstract a solution, and he is definitely good at his job. OTOH, when Pete is stupid, he's incompetently stupid in regard to things about which he should know better: running blindly out into the middle of an op and almost blowing it, or talking about Sam's going to alien worlds while surrounded by people in the middle of a public park. Without rehashing Chimera, for me, the character of Pete makes Sam look desperate, for putting up with his actions and behavior (again, it's offtopic, so I'm not going to go into the problems I had with what Pete did, and I'm sure everyone here has their own opinions. We are none of us going to change each other's mind about the character); I found him less offensive in Affinity, but still self-absorbed.


                      J.
                      "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


                      Comment


                        Originally posted by DarkQuee1
                        I totally agree that there is no slash, even in the dreaded "subtext", in Stargate. However, no show exists in a vacuum. They are affected by things going on around them (pulling the Buffy ep because of Columbine, for example). There are Daniel fans who believe that their campaign had an effect on bringing DJ back (I'm not looking to discuss whether it did or didn't, which is not on topic here). Either fan interests, wants and actions affect the show or they don't.

                        The campaign to bring Daniel back was saying they wanted Daniel back on the show. As far as I know, no slasher has said they want slash on the show. They don't want a J/D wedding, or Jack and Daniel snogging in the gateroom. They just interpret scenes a certain way, and expand it off screen. So, (again, as far as I know) slashers don't want anything more than what tptb had no trouble showing before. If tptb honestly stopped showing scenes of caring because slashers wanted to imagine something more off screen, then, I'm sorry. They need to get real.

                        TPTB are aware of slash and posts like the ones to which I referred also let them know the way some fans are viewing certain things, in this case, seeing a slashy subtext. Everyone involved in SciFi seems to want to increase the 18-49 year-old male demographic. When TPTB read posts like that, it is not unreasonable to assume that they might be concerned that having Jack fall all over Daniel and angst over him--angsting is a real fan thing!--and/or hug and the like, might make them (to the male audience) look like--in the words of a state governor not particularly respected in my household <<g>>--"girlie men".

                        When they wrote Need (the most vivid example of Jack giving Daniel a hug ) they weren't worried that the 18-49 yr old men would think that they were behaving like girly men. But, now that they know that some viewers see a slashy subtext in scenes, all those 18-49'ers will suddenly start seeing it too, when they didn't before? Makes no sense to me. And, they really think that
                        everyone sees slash, and it will make them look like "girly men" if they show Jack showing normal human affection for a friend? Slashers must have some powerful brain washing machine, if all those 18-49ers who didn't seem to have a problem back in season 2 (not to mention all the female friendshippers) will suddenly start seeing slash when they didn't before.

                        Hey, if any 18-49 year old man is reading this thread, assuming that you don't see Jack and Daniel as ever being anything but friends, does the fact that you're aware that some people do see a slash subtext suddenly make you see Jack and Daniel acting like "girly men", if you didn't before? Let me know, so I can ask the slashers if I can borrow their brain washing machine. I'd like a little power. Or, better yet, let tptb know that they don't have to be afraid of the All Powerful Slasher. You've resisted before.

                        And, Jack has never fallen all over Daniel. And, I've never seen anyone say they want him to. Also, interesting that showing care and concern for a fellow friend is "girly" Maybe I should feel flattered that it seems to be solely a female trait. There are worst things that people consider "girly". I've always thought it was human, myself.


                        My only point was that I think that slash being out there *does* impact on the show, but that some fans take the position that it is reprehensible to suggest such a thing. I think it's just being realistic.
                        And, I think if that is a reason they've done it, it's a stupid one. It would be the same thing if tptb didn't want any ship on the show, and found that some fans interepret regular caring gestures between Jack and Sam as shippy, and decided to eliminate all scenes of caring on the off chance that some might interpret it differently than they planned. Like I said, there's no reason at all to think that everyone sees slash (just like there's no reason to think that everyone sees ship). So, some people interpreting scenes a certain way, and expanding them off screen, shouldn't have any affect on what tptb do on screen. This isn't campaigning to get slash on the show. This isn't people asking for Jack and Daniel to act as anything other than close friends.

                        I have no patience with them if they use something that fans like to play with off screen as an excuse for anything. It's dumb. It's actually more than that, but dumb works. Thing is, with ship, this is what they chose to put there. And, they chose to have Jack spend most of his limited time with Sam,
                        Spoiler:
                        as well as make Sam's second thoughts about Pete, and her seeking Jack out a big part of one of the final episodes (I'm not sure if Threads is the final episode or not, but it's close)
                        which emphasis their relationship more and puts it above others. No story is automatically more important than any other (not Jack having Ancient data downloaded in him, or Daniel's ascension, or anything). How they choose to present stories can show what they consider to be more important. And, imo, when they push ship, they emphasize it above all other stories.

                        And, for the record, my problem with how tptb portrayed Jack and Daniel (or, stopped portraying them) started last season. It had nothing to do with any darkness after losing Sha're (not unless he carried all that after ascending, descending, and losing his memory) or anything like that. And, interestingly, it was also at the same time they took away my ability to have a matter of opinion about ship.
                        Last edited by Dani347; 03 September 2004, 09:57 PM.
                        I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

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                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Dani347
                          I have no patience with them if they use something that fans like to play with off screen as an excuse for anything. It's dumb. It's actually more than that, but dumb works.
                          You're right, it is more than dumb. It's wrong. If the writers are truly backing away from showing emotional or close scenes between Jack and Daniel (or any two men), because they are concerned that some fans might interpret them as homoerotic, shame on them. They should know better than anyone else that they can't control how fans see the show, and concentrate instead on the best possible story--which might include seeing emotion between two men. Hamstringing themselves because they're worried that the evil slash fans might see something they didn't intend is just silly. I really, really hope this isn't the case.

                          And no, I'm not talking about the over-the-top stuff. I wouldn't want to see that on the show anyway. Save that for fanfic. I'm just talking about honest emotion and concern.

                          There are slash fans for almost every show out there. Good heavens, check out the Buffy and Angel fandom for instance (and Joss Whedon had a great sense of humor about it). Big deal. Slash fans are also a small subset of an already small subset, online fandom. The vast majority of people out there haven't ever heard of it, and would stare at you blankly if you brought it up. I'm quite sure most of the target male demographic out there have never heard of it. Yes, it's better known now than in year's past because of the internet, but it's still small. If the writers are worried about slash fans, then they have too much time on their hands.

                          And Dani, I also agree with you about ship. It didn't bother me until Season 7. I must have missed Daniel's dark arc, because I never noticed it. He did seem awfully sad though, after Sha're died. Maybe it wasn't really dark, maybe it was more of a light brown.

                          Anyway, I'm of the opinion that I don't mind ship as long as it doesn't take away from the other relationships. Shippers deserve their moments, just like everyone else. It only bothered me when during Season 7.5 it was coming at me from all sides, and I couldn't get away from it. Not only that, because of the emphasis on ship, the other team members and the other relationships in the team were neglected.

                          If the writers can pull off a Season 8 where they can put ship in without shoving everything and everyone else to the side and beating it into our heads until we're bleeding from the ears, I won't have a problem with it. Here's hoping they can do it.

                          All MHO, of course.

                          Comment


                            Somehow, I don't think there are lots of the coveted male demographic reading lots of slash. It is pretty much a female thing.

                            So why would they see it on the show?

                            Lots of guys watch sports and there is all kinds of male hugging going on there so it is safe to assume that they are familiar with the concept.

                            I bet a good number of them have actually hugged their male friends.

                            I really don't think that Bridge received lots of mail from people telling them to stop with the Jack/Daniel scenes, but I know for a fact that shippers wrote in asking for kisses and such between Jack and Sam. (nothing wrong with writing to the powers that be--I'm just making a point about campaigns )

                            IF the PTB are cutting out signs of care and concern betweem men because of slash, then I agree with Dani--dumb and too bad for the friendshippers.

                            And, they are in for a rude surprise because from what I have heard, "Atlantis" is already being slashed.
                            Jace


                            When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people.

                            Abraham Joshua Heschel

                            Comment


                              =Jonisa And Dani, I also agree with you about ship. It didn't bother me until Season 7. I must have missed Daniel's dark arc, because I never noticed it. He did seem awfully sad though, after Sha're died. Maybe it wasn't really dark, maybe it was more of a light brown.

                              As I said, I thought it was an interesting arc. And I'm glad to see that some people, like you, apparently didn't blame ship for the rocky stretches in the friendship. But I did see a ream of posts from Daniel fans since season 4 complaining about the fact that Jack and Daniel didn't seem to be good friends anymore and it was all the fault of ship, and D&C, and so on. There was never any explanation offered for why the ship would cause friction between Jack and Daniel (as there was never any contest between them for Sam's affection).

                              Anyway, I'm of the opinion that I don't mind ship as long as it doesn't take away from the other relationships. Shippers deserve their moments, just like everyone else. It only bothered me when during Season 7.5 it was coming at me from all sides, and I couldn't get away from it. Not only that, because of the emphasis on ship, the other team members and the other relationships in the team were neglected.
                              While I agree that there was more mention of ship in the second half of season 7 than in the first, I still fail to see how the other team members were neglected, or why the other relationships were neglected. We aren't going to see the same amount of time with all four together as we did through season 6, because the shooting set-up has changed and made it impossible, along with RDA's limited schedule. The fact that Jack may not have as many scenes with Daniel as some fans might prefer, does *not* change the relationship between them, as we can see in the scenes they *do* share.

                              Daniel and Teal'c are not being neglected in terms of screen time or storyline (there are three Teal'c-dominant episodes in the first half of season eight alone); they simply may not be having it with Jack, but may be sharing time with each other (remember that if RDA were filming full time, some of the Daniel/Teal'c scenes wouldn't have happened. An example was "AFfinity": the scene at Teal'c's apartment where Daniel came to talk to him, was supposed to be Jack but was changed to Daniel because of RDA's diminished schedule.) And we are seeing more Daniel and Sam scenes because of things being Jack-lite. (Even in regard to romance: in Affinity, while there was a scene between Sam and Jack, there was also a scene between Sam, Teal'c and Daniel about romance and love lives.)

                              Basically, it seems that for some people the problem is simply with whom Jack is sharing scenes. With Jack's reduced presence, there is no way that everyone will get everything they want in this regard.

                              (BTW, even if ship were dropped tomorrow, that is no guarantee that Sam would not still be in scenes with Jack that did not involve anyone else. For seven years, we have seen that Jack, as CO of SG1, had scenes with Hammond that did not involve any of the other team members. There is no reason why we would not see the same thing between Gen. O'Neill and the new CO of SG1, Lt. Col. Carter.)

                              If the writers can pull off a Season 8 where they can put ship in without shoving everything and everyone else to the side and beating it into our heads until we're bleeding from the ears, I won't have a problem with it. Here's hoping they can do it.

                              All MHO, of course.

                              I don't think that any of the characters will be pushed to the side. I think they will continue to have episodes and/or storylines that emphasize them. I am glad that you are not really anti-ship. This may surprise you, but I'm not looking for Romance of the Week, either. OTOH, there is no way to put ship into some of the eps (and I do think it will only be some) without actually talking about it, so if they do deal with it, there will be some eps where it is front-and-center or, at least, the B-story, just as there will be eps where it is will not be mentioned at all. I think they will try to balance it as best they can.

                              J.
                              "He's an amazing man. After everything he's done, he's still modest. Quite self-effacing actually. He even likes people to think he's not as smart as he is. Bottom line, he's an incredibly strong leader who's given more to this program than any man has given to anything I can imagine."


                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Jace021903
                                And, they are in for a rude surprise because from what I have heard, "Atlantis" is already being slashed.
                                Atlantis was being slashed (McKay/Beckett at least) the day after it premiered. And before the premiere, people were slashing based on spoilers.

                                If the writers are truly keeping Jack and Daniel away from each other because of slash, then I am seriously PO'd. It was Jack and Daniel's friendship that brought me back to this show after six years away from it, and if I'm to be denied that because of what someone else might possibly want to interpret from scenes of two men being close friends and actually loving each other (without being in love with each other), then yes, I'm ticked.

                                Not at the people who might perceive that, but at those people who would be so arrogant as to believe that they can stop it.

                                The slashers are still slashing as much as they ever have - more, actually - while I (and all other friendshippers) are being denied the friendship scenes that we want to see?

                                Kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face, isn't it?
                                ~bri~


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