General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

That's what I want - if Jack isn't on board for a season 9, let him retire and be with Sam. It could/would be off-screen, and the anti shippers wouldn't have to see it, and the shippers would know they're together.

Consider the reverse: can the anti Sam/Pete people stomach knowing that Sam and Pete are together, even if it isn't necessarily shown? Could you (general you) live with it if Sam and Pete got married and he became a permanent part of her offscreen life? Would you consider that an ideal solution? After all, the S/J shippers wouldn't have to see it and the anti-ship (or pro-S/P) people would know they're together.

[majorsal]

Consider the reverse: can the anti Sam/Pete people stomach knowing that Sam and Pete are together, even if it isn't necessarily shown? Could you (general you) live with it if Sam and Pete got married and he became a permanent part of her offscreen life? Would you consider that an ideal solution? After all, the S/J shippers wouldn't have to see it and the anti-ship (or pro-S/P) people would know they're together.

Nope. But it wouldn't tick me off, it would completely, totally, absolutely break my heart. I don't see this happening, so I don't need to start preparing myself for this conclusion. But if it did happen, I'd leave the show. Not from anger, but from heart break. Seriously.

But I do know what you're getting at, Shadow. That just the 'hint' that Sam and Jack end up together is enough for you and some others. But you've been having this particular pairing -borrowing terminology- shoved down your throats for years, so I know you'd handle S/J marrying *much* better than any S/J shipper I know handling the opposite. And not to belittle your S/P shippiness, but you've had S/P ship for an extremely short amount of time in comparison to how long S/J ship's been going on. What point am I making? I guess that I think the S/J shippers deserve a shippy ending more than the S/P shippers. That's a pretty bold statement to make, and can sound rude, but that's not how I mean for it to come off as. A relationship that's been going on for less than a year -S/P- in comparison to one that's been going on for 8 years -S/J. If I were a complete newcomer to this show, and someone asked me which relationship would I want to see happily resolved, I'd say the one that's been going on the longest. 8 years is a looooong time to wait. But I guess that isn't here nor there, considering that you despise S/J ship to your very core. Me wanting them to end up together has absolutely nothing to do with any other fans desires. I'm not being selfish to me, just waiting for the outcome that's been building for 8 long years. I'm sorry some of you hate it, but that's just how I feel.

Sally

[brihana25]

I don't like what she said, and I hope she's wrong, but me not liking it might not be enough for it not to be true

Brihana25, if you want to clarify or correct me then please do.

No, you understood me pretty well. I don't like what I was saying, not one bit. Which is why I also said that that kind of behavior, from the fans towards each other, will most likely be the reason I'll end up leaving the fandom.

I did not come into this fandom to make enemies; I came into it to make friends. Within minutes of "announcing" my presence in it, I was told to take my precious Michael and just go die. My sin? Answering the question, "So, who's your favorite character?" in front of one of those militant fans - and oh, yes, there are militant fans out there. In this particular case, a Jonas fan. Of course, the ironic thing here is that I was so new that I didn't even know who "my precious Michael" was, and had never even heard of Jonas.

All I knew was that I had liked Stargate in its first season, I'd liked the one Season Five episode I'd caught on Fox one night, and I'd always liked Daniel.

Granted, it's an extreme case. And I certainly hope to God that no one else has ever received a death threat because of their favorite character... but again, I know some who have. This is not a healthy fandom by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think that further widening the gap by completely validating one "side" or the other is going to make us any better.

I know for a fact that people can and do feel like they're personally under attack when they see something they enjoy being strenuously objected to or complained about. Something I said after TLC - about J/S the characters, not about J/S shippers - in a fit of anger ended up causing personal pain to someone I cared for very, very much, and because of me and others like me, she almost left the fandom forever. I'm so very grateful that she didn't, but she came so close to it... and it was because of me. Because of me, lashing out against something that made me unhappy, a real person ended up being hurt.

That's the kind of "power" I was talking about. I never in a million years would have imagined that I had that kind of power over anyone, but I most certainly did. We all have that power over each other, to a certain extent, and in the end, no matter how much we may try to avoid using it, most of us will. It's human nature to talk about those things that cause us either pain or happiness. That's what I did, and when I did it I abused a power that I didn't even know I had until I saw the results of it.

I never, ever want to do that again. I will not ever do that again. And I won't sit by and watch other people do it to each other either.

I hope to heck that I'm wrong, but no... when it's all over, I'm pretty certain it's going to happen too. And for some reason, knowing that I won't be around to see it doesn't make me feel any better.

[ShadowMaat]

I guess that I think the S/J shippers deserve a shippy ending more than the S/P shippers. That's a pretty bold statement to make, and can sound rude, but that's not how I mean for it to come off as. A relationship that's been going on for less than a year -S/P- in comparison to one that's been going on for 8 years -S/J.

Just because a relationship is newer doesn't make it any less real or valid and it doesn't mean that a relationship that has been going on for years is better or more deserving of attention. Obviously, you feel differently, but as far as I am personally concerned, new relationships and old relationships share equal value. There may be variances along the way, there may be places where the "older" relationship is better, but the "newer" one is better in other places. I think they balance out pretty well in terms of worthiness.

The old married couple may be familiar with one another's nuances, they may have a better understanding of who they are and who/what the other person is and that may lend them a great deal of ease in communication, but the newlyweds are still full of fire and excitement and paths unexplored, nuances to find and figure out, breakdowns in communication that lead to greater understanding. Newer isn't always bad. Unless you're talking about pop music.

Anyway, that's MY take on things...

[majorsal]

No, you understood me pretty well. I don't like what I was saying, not one bit. Which is why I also said that that kind of behavior, from the fans towards each other, will most likely be the reason I'll end up leaving the fandom.

<snipped>

(((((((((((bri))))))))))))

Sally

[ShadowMaat]

...And I certainly hope to God that no one else has ever received a death threat because of their favorite character... but again, I know some who have. This is not a healthy fandom by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think that further widening the gap by completely validating one "side" or the other is going to make us any better..

Amen to that. I have a friend who received a death threat for some similarly innocent comment and it scared him badly. If it hadn't been for the rest of us defending and reassuring him, he might have dropped out of fandom entirely.

I can't say that I've received death threats, but I have certainly come under personal attack from a wide variety of sources for daring to like Jonas. And what saddened me even more is that when I took a stand to defend Michael Shanks in a chat room where someone was bashing him, all of the Daniel fans seemed compleley shocked that I would do such a thing. Just because I like Jonas doesn't mean I hate Daniel/MS. Granted, my enjoyment of the character- and the actor- has been severely affected by the overwhelming negativity I and other Jonas fans were subjected to, but that doesn't mean I'm going to support someone attacking Michael.

And to bring this back closer to the subject, my anti-ship attitude apparently offends some people much more deeply than I would have thought possible. I was in a situation recently when I was meeting up with a bunch of other fans, including some shippers, and... well, let's just say that until that moment, it hadn't occurred to me that I could be loathed for disliking ship. It was not a little intimidating and quite a bit depressing as well. I don't think I've ever attacked any shippers- individually or as a group- for liking ship. I try to be very careful to not generalise and to keep most of my comments directed at ship rather than at shippers and I can't imagine what I've done to generate outright hatred in someone over a difference in opinion.

I'm a big girl and I dealt with it and I can deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it and I sure as hell can't understand it. Just because I'm anti-ship doesn't mean I'm the Anti-Christ. And just because I disagree with someone (or multiple someones) about ONE thing doesn't mean we'll disagree about EVERYTHING. There is more to life than one subject and it's quite possible to have civil (or frivolous) conversations without coming to blows on that one subject.

As for ship on the show, if they do resolve it in a concrete, shippy way, it will destroy the show just as thoroughly for me as a Sam/Pete ending would destroy it for (some) shippers.

[majorsal]

Just because a relationship is newer doesn't make it any less real or valid and it doesn't mean that a relationship that has been going on for years is better or more deserving of attention. Obviously, you feel differently, but as far as I am personally concerned, new relationships and old relationships share equal value.

When I read out what you've said, I have to agree. I think most of my feelings on deserving comes from... and this will be very controversial to say.... that I'm not sure who's *really* an S/P shipper. Literally everyone that's ever stated that they are into S/P just happens to be a- an anti-S/J shipper, or b- an S/J shipper that thinks shippers like myself are over emotional and are making fools of all shippers in general(stuff I've encounted on the s/j list). Point being, everyone that's said they like S/P together has some sort of agenda behind it. So with those feelings, I can't seem to trust who's really into that ship, and I can't seem to foster pitty for their predicament. I know this sounds harsh -and I'm ready to take the consequences for my words- but it's been something I've been feeling for some time. I'm not asking anyone to 'prove' they're an S/P shipper, just saying why I can't feel sympathy for them if they don't get what they want. And that sounds b*tchy, so maybe I need a breather from this thread. For anyone I've offended, I'm sorry.

Sally

[brihana25]

(((((((((((bri))))))))))))

Thank you, Sally.

[ShadowMaat]

Some people are Sam/Pete shippers to spite the Sam/Jack shippers. There's no denying that. But personally, I happen to really like Pete as a character and I like what he does for Sam.

If I were rabidly anti-S/J I wouldn't care whom she was with as long as it wasn't Jack, but there have been plenty of other possible Sam pairings over the years and Pete was the first one I really liked. Well... actually, McKay came first, but somehow Pete seemed a little more realisitc.

And there's still Luke.

No, I don't expect any of that to change your view on things, but I just wanted to offer up my own position on the matter.

[brihana25]

I can't say that I've received death threats, but I have certainly come under personal attack from a wide variety of sources for daring to like Jonas.

You and I do disagree on Jonas, but I don't see that as a problem, and I hope that you don't. Because we *do* agree on a hundred other things, or a thousand other things. And I myself would rather focus on the things we *do* agree on, and maybe have a side discussion about the one thing we don't disagree on every now and again , because I happen to think that a fandom built on multiple degrees of agreement is going to be much stronger, not to mention happier, than one built on one exclusive point of disagreement.

If I behaved the way I'm "supposed" to in this fandom, I'd hate you. And I'd pick fights with Sally and shipperahoy every time I saw them, rather than talking to them. Then again, being a die-hard Genner would also mean that I'd hate all slashers and shippers, and I consider a few of them to be among my very best friends in the fandom.

And to bring this back on-topic, again (man, I have *got* to quit doing this OT thing all the time), I still think onscreen, full-frontal ship is a bad idea.

Anyway, that's how I feel about it. What do you think?

[brihana25]

Literally everyone that's ever stated that they are into S/P just happens to be a- an anti-S/J shipper, or b- an S/J shipper that thinks shippers like myself are over emotional and are making fools of all shippers in general(stuff I've encounted on the s/j list). Point being, everyone that's said they like S/P together has some sort of agenda behind it.

I think you're right - it's a very controversial thing to say. But that doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened.

I do happen to fit one of those descriptions, if not both. Yet at the same time, I honestly do like Pete. But in my case, and in most cases that I know about personally, it's more a cooincidence than a conspiracy.

Most cases. I also know some people who have said, flat out, that they ship Sam/Pete only because they despise Jack/Sam. Are those people the vast majority of S/P shippers? No. No more than the vast majority of people who don't like Jonas only dislike him because he's not Daniel. No more than the vast majority of those who *do* ship J/S do so only because they can't stand Daniel.

It's all about perceptions, yet again. A few bad apples spoil the bunch, and the fact that these people do exist - those who claim a preference for one character or pairing only to oppose another character or pairing that they vehemently oppose - does end up making every other single member of that group immediately suspect.

As someone who's recently been accused of shipping J/Sara only because I really prefer J/D (which is absolutely hilarious to anyone who knows anything about me), I can also say that it stings more than a bit to have my motivations for chosing a pairing questioned simply because of which pairing it is.

The simple fact is, I just happen to like something "different." And it's easier to assume that I'm doing it for nasty reasons than it is to just admit that, "Hey, she's different than me. That's cool."

Just like it's easier to assume that all J/S shippers automatically hate Daniel. Or that all Daniel fans automatically hate Jonas. Or that all S/P shippers automatically must be J/D slashers...

[Jace021903]

that I'm not sure who's *really* an S/P shipper. Literally everyone that's ever stated that they are into S/P just happens to be a- an anti-S/J shipper, or b- an S/J shipper that thinks shippers like myself are over emotional and are making fools of all shippers in general(stuff I've encounted on the s/j list). Point being, everyone that's said they like S/P together has some sort of agenda behind it. So with those feelings, I can't seem to trust who's really into that ship,
Sally

Sally,

I have to give you a lot of credit for being honest about your feelings without being insulting.


I would call myself a Sam/Pete shipper although I don't hold out a lot of hope.
I even wrote a fanfic--my one and only--that included the pairing.

I have to admit that I don't care for J/S ship at all for lots of reasons. But if I did, maybe I wouldn't be open to anyone else with Sam including Pete.

I have never shipped (or slashed) for anyone else on the show ever--I was always firmly in the noromo camp. (Well, maybe for Daniel/Sha're a little)

From the first scenes, I saw a chemistry between the characters that I liked and have never seen for Sam with any of the numerous love interests that they have given her over the years.

So, speaking for myself, that's why I like Sam/Pete.

I can see where you are coming from though.

Jace

[majorsal]

I think you're right - it's a very controversial thing to say. But that doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened.

And I'm glad -so far- that no one's wanted to cut my head off for my views. But if it happens, then I get what I get. I know I was accusatory. As a tv show theme song sang out one time -'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'.

I do happen to fit one of those descriptions, if not both. Yet at the same time, I honestly do like Pete. But in my case, and in most cases that I know about personally, it's more a cooincidence than a conspiracy.

I've let up on Pete myself. I felt that Affinity redeemed him to sorts, so now my feelings on his behavior in Chimera is leveled solely onto the writers, not the character anymore. I'm a Sam fan, and I felt that in Affinity, Pete was respectful and loving and there for her. Which makes him good for her, even if the S/J shipper in me whimpers. I still don't want him around, and I still don't want him to end up with Sam, but that's entirely as an Sam/Jack shipper now.

No more than the vast majority of those who *do* ship J/S do so only because they can't stand Daniel.

At one time, I didn't care for Daniel, but that was because I wasn't too up on Michael Shanks. And that was because MS had make remarks in articles/interviews that he didn't like the idea of Sam and Jack together, amongst other things. Then all hell broke loose and he quit. Time passed, he came back, and I slowly changed my attitude about him. Whatever was making him unhappy ended, and whatever probs he had on the show obviously was over too. Everyone associated with the show seemed to have the attitude, 'over with, done with, let's move on', so I tried that too.

As someone who's recently been accused of shipping J/Sara only because I really prefer J/D (which is absolutely hilarious to anyone who knows anything about me), I can also say that it stings more than a bit to have my motivations for chosing a pairing questioned simply because of which pairing it is.

That could have happened to me if I'd joined the Buffy and Angel fandoms. I'm a Buffy/Spike and Angel/Cordy shipper, but since I really didn't get into Buffy/Angel, I could have been accused of only liking those other pairings because it kept Buff and Angel away from each other. I wasn't 'against' Buff and Angel together at all, just not thrilled by it. But it could have happened to me nonetheless.

Just like it's easier to assume that all J/S shippers automatically hate Daniel. Or that all Daniel fans automatically hate Jonas. Or that all S/P shippers automatically must be J/D slashers...

And you're right. Food for thought.

Sally

[Hubble]

So in other words - you don't have any proof. Maybe someone else will happen along who will.

While I don't have the articles stashed away in my house as evidence of "proof," I distinctly remember reading the same articles mentioned by DQ1. What she relayed regarding the wishes of MS at the time was exactly what I remember reading. I got the same sense/interpretation that she did.

Since I don't post here often at all, I have zip credibility, so don't take my word for it. But if you are interested in reading for yourself what he said, you can easily do some research and find the material.

Interesting discussion on both sides.

Hubble

[majorsal]

Sally,

I have to give you a lot of credit for being honest about your feelings without being insulting.


I would call myself a Sam/Pete shipper although I don't hold out a lot of hope.
I even wrote a fanfic--my one and only--that included the pairing.

I have to admit that I don't care for J/S ship at all for lots of reasons. But if I did, maybe I wouldn't be open to anyone else with Sam including Pete.

I have never shipped (or slashed) for anyone else on the show ever--I was always firmly in the noromo camp. (Well, maybe for Daniel/Sha're a little)

From the first scenes, I saw a chemistry between the characters that I liked and have never seen for Sam with any of the numerous love interests that they have given her over the years.

So, speaking for myself, that's why I like Sam/Pete.

I can see where you are coming from though.

Jace

Thank you, Jace. For all of it.

Sally