Chloe - Jennifer Keller 2.0?

[Avenger]

Young has been seen with the personnel files for everyone on the ship in previous episodes, so he knows what everyone's background. Secondly, he had to pick someone not from the military and someone who would not have been loyal to Wray.

[MattSilver 3k]

Especially if you look at the way she is. Insecure, not assertive, aimless, currently without a position on the ship (almost everyone else has something they do in order to improve life for everybody on the ship).

Insecure - about what exactly? Being trapped on a ship and losing her father? Jeez, everybody would be insecure there.

Not Assertive- did you miss her beating the crap out of Rush in the pilot? Or her little outburst at his suggestion in Water that he leave Scott to die back on Hoth?

Aimless - That we've seen. You made a special point about not knowing the background of the others as to who could've defended Young... how do we know they're doing stuff like Chloe "should be" doing? And she is trying to find her niche and help out, as evidenced by Time and Justice (Even if she was asked to, she could've said no... but she didn't.)

[The Swarm]

This thread has Chloe hate writen all over it...jeesh i thought people would get tired of it already.
Want a Marry Sue? How about Keller who went from doctor to genetician/surgeon/biologist from one episode to another...that girl is like the mesiah of medicine.

[Naonak]

I sincerely doubt that out of the 80 or so people currently on the ship, Chloe was the best qualified to act as a defense attorney... because she has a background in political science.
I mean, no one else on the ship has a background in law of any kind?

How many lawyers do you think Icarus needed...?

[KEK]

I'm sorry, you must have missed season 5 of Atlantis.

Don't be sorry, I never.

No, but you need to be trained in off-world travel, how to handle a weapon, how to, I don't know, run really fast, should they encounter hostiles. We've seen very few people leave the ship to go off world and Chloe just happens to be one of those despite her having no skills whatsoever to aid the expedition off world! Why her? Why not another scientist or another soldier?

Every person off world is another possible liability in case of an emergency or a combat situation.

Did you conveniently ignore the part where I referenced Young wanting to see what everyone was made of, and sending them off-world despite no training?

She does not have a background in law! Political science =/= Law.

"This is more politics than law"

If you look at the things the PTB have had her do insofar, that's what it's beginning to look like.

To you, and you seem to be in a tiny minority.

[FallenAngelII]

Insecure - about what exactly? Being trapped on a ship and losing her father? Jeez, everybody would be insecure there.

It has been expressively stated by Chloe herself, other characters and the PTB that Chloe is insecure, unsure of her place in the world and on the ship.

Not Assertive- did you miss her beating the crap out of Rush in the pilot? Or her little outburst at his suggestion in Water that he leave Scott to die back on Hoth?

Sporadic outburst does not an assertive person make.

And she is trying to find her niche and help out, as evidenced by Time and Justice (Even if she was asked to, she could've said no... but she didn't.)

She should have. You don't "try to find your niche" during an evidentiary hearing that may very well land a person in Destiny jail.

Did you conveniently ignore the part where I referenced Young wanting to see what everyone was made of, and sending them off-world despite no training?

Fine. Then that's just the PTB shoehorning Chloe into the fray.

"This is more politics than law"

Yet we saw no politics in there. It was all about the law.

To you, and you seem to be in a tiny minority.

They keep throwing her into the fray and have her end up succeeding or at least not failing. She's not a Keller-level Mary Sue. But she's at least a quasi-Sue.

[KEK]

Fine. Then that's just the PTB shoehorning Chloe into the fray.

Um, no it isn't, it's the opposite, it proves she has a very valid reason for being there.

Yet we saw no politics in there. It was all about the law.

So? Either way it explains why Young chose her.

They keep throwing her into the fray and have her end up succeeding or at least not failing.

Do they? I can think of two times she's been 'thrown into the fray', once in Justice and once in Time, and she failed pretty hard in Time.

She's not a Keller-level Mary Sue. But she's at least a quasi-Sue.

Quasi-Sue? That doesn't even make sense, you're either idealised and unflawed character or your not, and even you yourself have identified some of her weaknesses. You don't like her character, that's fine, but the Mary Sue criticism is just ridiculous. No offence, but are you sure you understand what a Mary Sue actually is?

[Avenger]

Yet we saw no politics in there. It was all about the law.

And what law are you talking about? The hearing had no basis in any actual law.

[Girlbot]

Perhaps Young thru her into the fray of the trial to prove that there is no correct justice system on the ship for a trial, so Rush wouldn't have gotten the sentence he deserved for the crime he commited. So young passed sentence himself.

[Coronach]

The point is not that she didn't fail. The point is that according to Young, the episode and the PTB, out of all of the people on the ship, Chloe was the best person for the job. Oh really? You really want us to believe that?

No, they don't want us to believe that. Of course, no one ever said this in the episode itself, so this is all something you're reading too much into.

In fact, Chloe made this comment:

ARMSTRONG: Me?!

YOUNG: You went to Harvard.

ARMSTRONG: Political science!

YOUNG: This is more politics than law.

ARMSTRONG: I-I would think Lieutenant Scott ...

YOUNG: I don't want it to seem like the military against the civilians.

What is clear from this (at least to me) is that Young asked Chloe specifically because she was a civilian. Young was very deliberate in a lot of his actions in this episode, carefully taking every step he could to ensure that a riot didn't break out and that he could get leadership back without using force.

I don't think it's the idea that Chloe was best for this (though she wasn't bad), but she was an intelligent civilian with a political science background (Young does make a good point about politics vs law), and that's what was most important in this case.

She was shoehorned into the episode doing something allegedly only she could do when it's apparent to anyone with half a brain that it was not something that only she could do.

It seems to me that you have more of a problem with Chloe than any sort of writing or shoehorning issue. From what I gather, it's the very fact that it was Chloe and not someone else being chosen that has you irked. Because you keep throwing this "allegedly only she could do" stuff around, when this wasn't even suggested (and certainly wasn't said) in the episode itself.

I mean, the PTB actually come right out and tell us that she's the best person for the job (through writing it into Young's lines) when she didn't really do anything spectacular this episode.

They do?!

[FallenAngelII]

Um, no it isn't, it's the opposite, it proves she has a very valid reason for being there.

Me: Why was Chloe even off world?
MattSilver 3k: Because Young had decided to have everyone get to go off world, even people without any kind of training.
Me: Oooh. The PTB tried to justify shoe-horning her into off-world episodes.

How does what you just said disprove my thesis?

And then I ignored the rest because I've already addressed those issues a hundred or so times over... in the very post you're replying to, actually.

And what law are you talking about? The hearing had no basis in any actual law.

The skills exhibited in the hearing were all regarding law. None of it was in regards to political science. The hearing had no actual basis in law since they aren't within an Earth jurisdiction, but the questions posed are questions you'd need knowledge of law to ask, not knowledge of political science.

Stuff

OK, so I misremembered it a bit. I apologize.

I don't think it's the idea that Chloe was best for this (though she wasn't bad), but she was an intelligent civilian with a political science background (Young does make a good point about politics vs law), and that's what was most important in this case.

And the fact remains that nothing political sciency was shown! None of the questions posed had anything to do with political science but everything to do with the law. In other words, Chloe's political science background was virtually useless from what we saw.

Which is what makes it such an obvious shoehorning.

It seems to me that you have more of a problem with Chloe than any sort of writing or shoehorning issue. From what I gather, it's the very fact that it was Chloe and not someone else being chosen that has you irked. Because you keep throwing this "allegedly only she could do" stuff around, when this wasn't even suggested (and certainly wasn't said) in the episode itself.

Even if Young never said it, he chose Chloe out of everyone on the ship. Clearly, he thought Chloe was the best (or one of the best) for the job. Which is what's puzzling and irking since:
1) Political science =/= Law, no matter what Young says. When you have an evidentiary hearing, you want someone who knows the law to be present.
2) Chloe didn't use any of her knowledge of political science during the hearing. In other words, the very thing Young claims was a main contributing factor to his selection of her as his attorney was useless in the episode.

[Avenger]

The skills exhibited in the hearing were all regarding law. None of it was in regards to political science. The hearing had no actual basis in law since they aren't within an Earth jurisdiction, but the questions posed are questions you'd need knowledge of law to ask, not knowledge of political science.

Then why are you taking no issue with Wray's involvement? She has no background in law either. If you're going to say that Chloe was shoe horned, you have to do the same with Wray.

The hearing had no basis in any written law, civilian or military. Law cannot exist unless is written down in some official capacity. At no point have I seen anyone on the ship sit down and develop a proper legal system for determining how a trial would be handled on Destiny, present it to every one and have everyone come to some sort of agreement. They didn't bring in any lawyers or judges from Earth to properly oversee the proceedings.

By all rights, Young was entitled to a military lawyer to represent him and for the "trial" to be conducted in a military court given that he is a member of the military and the victim he was suspected of having killed was a member of the military.

If you honestly think that the hearing had anything to do with law, you are completely ignorant on the subject because there is no law of any kind on Destiny being enforced at this point in time.

[Naonak]

Me: Why was Chloe even off world?
MattSilver 3k: Because Young had decided to have everyone get to go off world, even people without any kind of training.
Me: Oooh. The PTB tried to justify shoe-horning her into off-world episodes.

How does what you just said disprove my thesis?

I guess this at least partly comes down to whether you think the justification's valid. Personally, I agree with Young - in this kind of situation, everybody needs to step up and contribute - so I don't see it as shoehorning.

Even if Young never said it, he chose Chloe out of everyone on the ship. Clearly, he thought Chloe was the best (or one of the best) for the job. Which is what's puzzling and irking

Well, he didn't want any military personnel doing it, and I'd assume every other civilian is a scientist of some sort. Or a nerdy math prodigy. As far as I can tell, political science - and having worked for a Senator - would have more transferable skills than a hard science - debate, forming an argument, etc.

[Coronach]

OK, so I misremembered it a bit. I apologize.

It happens

And the fact remains that nothing political sciency was shown! None of the questions posed had anything to do with political science but everything to do with the law. In other words, Chloe's political science background was virtually useless from what we saw.

Which is what makes it such an obvious shoehorning.

And the fact remains, that Chloe was the only civilian (unless you have a better choice?) with anything even remotely resembling a law training. You're right in that political science =/= law. But I'm stumped for a better civilian option, which is what Col. Young was very keen on the entire episode. That is, not causing a military/civilian division.

Even if Young never said it, he chose Chloe out of everyone on the ship. Clearly, he thought Chloe was the best (or one of the best) for the job. Which is what's puzzling and irking since:
1) Political science =/= Law, no matter what Young says. When you have an evidentiary hearing, you want someone who knows the law to be present.
2) Chloe didn't use any of her knowledge of political science during the hearing. In other words, the very thing Young claims was a main contributing factor to his selection of her as his attorney was useless in the episode.

And, again, I ask: why is this puzzling/irking? Can you think of another civilian that would have been better for the job who also had something resembling law training? Because the fact remains, it doesn't matter how unrelated her degree is or how inexperienced she is for such a matter. She's still better equipped (perhaps marginally, if you prefer) than some random civilian pulled out of the wood-work.

And I guess we'll have to disagree on the "main contributing factor". As I could just as easily say that I think Young's main contributing factor was that she was a civilian, and that her political science training was an added bonus. The dialogue certainly suggests this.

Interestingly enough, I find it odd that you aren't also complaining about TJ. As it stands, I wouldn't say she's had any truly ground-breaking character material. She was interim leader aboard Destiny in "Water", yes, but aside from that? The reason I mention this is because you'll remember that Young assigned her to do psych evals of the people aboard the Destiny in an episode. And that is all she did. As someone who was admittedly inexperienced (i.e. she mentions she only took one Psych course in her undergrad), isn't that also shoe-horning of a character to give them something to do? If you answer "she was the best qualified to do it", then why would you not grant the same to Chloe?

[Avenger]

Indeed, and he had to choose someone that wasn't loyal to Wray to represent him because, as we saw during the questioning, Wray was obviously trying to prevent Chloe from asking questions that would cast doubt on Wray's position.