Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

[magictrick]

Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.

[FallenAngelII]

It's been clear to me for quite some time now that Young is not fit to lead. Sure, he tried to atone for his mistakes after the whole coup fiasco, but he is not fit for command of the Destiny.

The second he wavered in ordering the venting of the gate room, he sealed his fate, in my eyes. It'll be a miracle if he manages to keep his command after the resolution of the incursion. After all, his indecision and misguided attempt at "saving everyone" resulted in countless deaths on our side.

For all of his talk of the "Greater good", that philosophy apparently flies out the window when he has to sacrifice one of his own best friends (or, if you want to be generous, Rush and/or Telford and Rush, as a way to atone for the attempt at Rush's life).

"Sure, for the greater good, we must be willing to sacrifice the lives of individuals for the survival of the expedition... unless he's one of my oldest friends! Because then screw that plan!"

Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Richard (Woolsey), George (S. Hammond), Henry ("Hank" Landry) would all have known what to do: Sacrifice the life of the one for the safety of the many. In fact, many of them have already had to make that choice themselves and they made the correct one (sacrificing the one for the many).

No matter what happens, unless they manage to go back in time or find a revival machine, the blood of the many casualties on Earth's side will be partially on Young's hands.

[Kelara]

Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

[...]

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.

No one is the right person, and yes, even Young says he's one of those 'not the right people'. What's your point? Please feel free to point out any actual ignorance there

My guess would be ignorance in so far as to cling to Young in command, no matter how good his decisions turn out to be. Because even if he happened to be the textbook example for "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and I'm not convinced he even got the "good intentions" part going most of the time), military will be judged by the results. I totally don't follow the reasoning that Young makes all his decisions with best intentions and catastrophic results therefore don't matter (Stargate does have quite a bit of history with that line of agument, it's still not realistic, even if this show insists on calling itself that). Excusing all of the fails with bad luck also doesn't work for me because either he has chronic bad luck and therefore is a danger to people around him anyway , or he relies on luck in the first place. Which is not particularly sound, strategically speaking.

Or ignorance to the possibility that this character is actually written to show psychological deteoriation (though I admit it might be hard to spot, given the low starting value of mental stability I see in that character) and will drop/ be dropped from command. So he's maybe going to be the first Stargate commander portrayed as incompetent. On top of that he may be the first Stargate commander failing in his job, so what? You can accept that people have flaws and are bad at the job they are supposed to do, but failing on the job due to these flaws is unthinkable? Why?

[JustAnotherVoice]

How much longer will this thread continue

If it manages to keep going until the start of S2, I'll be very impressed.

[Blackhole]

Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.

I agree.

[Blackhole]

*eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already

No reason to be testy. I think you are forgetting that this is just a TV show. Young is a fictional character and any analysis of his behavior has to be done objectively.

[EllieVee]

Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.

It's also worth noting that Young's fall back position is to say 'You can do this' or 'We can fix this' before having any information about the situation. In Darkness, for example (my aside in blue):

RUSH (beginning to pace around the room): I refuse to be held responsible for this situation!

YOUNG: Nobody's blaming you. [Ironically, Young had actually accused Rush of doing something to cause the power failure a few minutes earlier]

RUSH: I ran out of time!

YOUNG: We can fix this.

(By now, Rush is almost apoplectic with rage.)

RUSH: "Fix this"! What, you think just because you give the order that it's possible? There is no more power! Destiny saved every last ounce of its reserves for life support - and I've seen it happening. I've seen it being sequestered away from me. I tried to ... I tried to stop it. I tried to stop it but I couldn't!

Just one example.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...

*eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already

[Blackhole]

apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that?

I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.

apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that?

[Blackhole]

First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen
I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

Disengenuous would be making this statement:
And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.

I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.

That is indeed an interesting question about Telford, and I do agree that something writerish is going to happen to him, for that reason.

As for Wray - Wray has been in command. Once during "Justice" and it left her so rattled that her hands shook. Sort of again in "Divided" during the coup, although that was extremely short lived. I believe that there is a time when Wray could handle being a leader. I just don't think that time is now. Huge swipes have been taken at Young's leadership here, but if Wray had been in charge during this current event, I believe that she would have handed over the ship to Kiva (with no goal to get it back) in the hopes that she could simply talk and the woman would go along. I actually have hope that she'll step up at some point and be leadership material, for real, instead of just because her position at IOA grants her that right.

[Kaiphantom]

Telford is the one who was meant to lead the expedition. So at least one of them was meant to be there, now at least.

You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.

First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen
I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

Disengenuous would be making this statement:
And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.

[Blackhole]

I've addressed it several times, Blackstone, so don;t be all disingenuous now
You`ll also note, by use of the RED TEXT, that I was specifically targeting your use of the word hysterical, so, to add to being disingenuous, you`re now moving the goalposts. Yelling at the scientists? He was pissed off and didn't want a bunch of excuses for why someone can't do something - he wanted them to DO IT. Being pissed at Rush for saying - yet again - something callous? That's not hysterical either. Young's got his problems, no argument there, but you are going to near-ridiculous lengths to assert that he's hysterical. Your OWN DEFINITION of hysteria - excessive or uncontrolled emotion? By your own definition, it doesn't fit, as he wasn't excessive (it didn't go on past a yell and he wasn't shrieking or crying or having a panic attack, or you, know, like the one occassion where we HAVE seen hysteria in this show, falling unconscious) nor uncontrolled (he had no problem going on calmly to talk about the pulsar and had no problem at all not yelling when Park told him not to yell.)

Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush reiterated the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier - the invasion should have been over. All subsequent deaths with the exception of Telford would have been unnecessary and preventable. The truth of O'Neill's and now Rush's statement stung Young and he reacted violently. The same type of reaction in the command center, now without provocation, was what had led to his beating of Telford and his stranding of Rush on the planet.

Young's inability to sacrifice a man under his command coupled with his fits of uncontrolled rage and anger paint a very sad picture of a very troubled solider with the best of intentions undergoing progressive psychological deterioration. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. It just means he still has some control. When is uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack (particularly when viewed in context with all of his past violence) aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous by downplaying his reaction it is you.

Young out of compassion hesitated to immediately vent the gate room. This understandable but tactically catastrophic initial mistake let LA gain a foothold and led to the loss of the ship. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery and a history of violent reactions including attempted murder; gross errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) leading to the loss of the ship aren’t sufficient enough evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state and command ability for you then I don’t know what action ever will be?