Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

[EllieVee]

Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?

I think it's more likely that he used to be competent rather than having someone in a powerful position giving him a free pass. In previous episodes, we've heard comments like Jack saying that Young was his choice for expedition leader but Young said no, his heart wasn't in it (or somesuch). Then Rush said Young didn't want to make the hard decisions. Pure speculation but perhaps something happened to make him psychologically crumble, as the thread title states. Presumably he passed whatever last psych eval he had - if he had one - but certainly, he's not fit for command now.

[Kaiphantom]

I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.

Assuming the risk is small is still stupid. As is relying on people covering the doors, because he also had NO idea how many LA people would come through. What if 200+ had come through? That's enough to throw bodies at the corridors until you get through.

Stupid.

Or what if they had flashbangs or Goa'uld grenades that could easily take out the people in the corridor? Oh wait, that they had the former and that's exactly what happen. Relying on that is.. what's the word?

Stupid.

Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?

Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.

Wrong. JM told us that Young made his decisions because he thought he would lose nothing. That's as close to thinking your position is impenetrable as you're going to get. And if you want to say that JM is wrong, then you have to accept that Young's actions were wrong. It's a shaky position to be in.

Here's how a trained commander would lay things out:

"Okay, chances are good we have enemy coming. Locking the doors and preparing to vent the atmosphere is good. We can't delay too long in doing that, though, because we have to assume they are coming in heavily armed, and will blow the doors as soon as they can, which negates my plan; after all, that's what I would do if I were in the enemy commander's position. So waiting is suicide and monumentally stupid. I can probably delay only a minute from when they start coming in. I'll have people int he hallways outside, but if they blow the doors and have more men than us, or stuff like flashbangs or goa'uld grenades, they won't be able to hold long. Best nip this in the bud ASAP."

LA starts coming through, and they see Telford.

"Uh oh, if I do it now, I could end up killing Rush and Telford. I'll take 30 seconds to disconnect the stones and then vent the atmosphere, that way only Telford is at risk. We should be able to revive him after, but he's a soldier, and if he is back to normal, he'll understand. The life of 1 soldier vs. the lives of everyone on this ship, soldier and civilian."

As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.

You're seriously going to argue that the Goa'uld weren't arrogant about their power? I mean, I can pull up examples starting from the end of season 1, where Apophis attacked Earth with two ships. Hell, even Apophis planned to use Sokar's arrogance against him. I don't think this is an argument you really want to make when it was pointed out many times in the show by the characters themselves, about how arrogant the Goa'uld were.

[Aurora24]

I agree with Young's decision not to vent the air out of the gate room when he saw that Telford (or Rush depending on who Young thought was in control of Telford's body when he came through the gate). I was kinda surprised in the episode when Jack was telling Young he should have followed the original plan to stop the incursion. I couldn't see any leader sacrificing a valued member of their team if they believed other options were available.

That being said, the fact that Young seems to have difficulty controlling his emotions in stressful situations is a problem. I liked Young at the beginning of the show, but I've been liking him a lot less since he stranded Rush on that planet. Regardless of the fact that Rush framed him for murder, abandoning him on a planet in the middle of nowhere was not the way to handle things. I don't really know what the ideal way to handle a situation like that would be, but Young's reaction was a little too extreme. The in this episode he starts freaking out and yelling at the scientists when they are trying to figure out how to deal with the problem of the ship being hit by gamma radiation. I understand that it's an extremely stressful situation, but in the middle of something like that the military leader should try to remain a bit calmer. Another thing that bothered me was that Young was checking in with Jack in the middle of the incursion. In my opinion, when your ship is being taken over it's a little late to call home for advice on how to deal with things. That is another thing that makes me doubt Young's ability to be an effective leader.

[EllieVee]

I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.

Amen

I don't expect Young to be 'all heroey' but I do expect competence. A reliance on an overly emotional temper does not replace competence in a military commander.

[Sami_]

There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.

I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.

Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.

As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.

[Kaiphantom]

Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.

There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.

But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

What did you think I said before? Because from my view, I haven't deviated much. At most, tried to explain things from another angle.

What it looks like to me, is #1, which is what I call BS on. Young should have assumed that any hostile force would come through the gate fully armed, because that's what he would do, that's what he was trained to do, and thus what he should expect them to do. Part of a solider's arsenal is explosives; to assume that an enemy wouldn't come through with explosives is sheer stupidity. Or given that it's the LA use a vast mix of tech, they could have come through with staff weapons which might have been able to breach the doors.

The point is he should have assumed they'd come through with enough weaponry.

If they didn't, then good; we got lucky. But a military commander should always assume the worst and plan accordingly; he should be putting himself in the enemy's position to think about what tactics would be effective. And he knows that Telford has given them intel on Destiny, so it's highly likely they would have been prepared for locked doors.

But yeah, I tossed JM's explanation a long time ago. Maybe that's what they intended, but how it came out in the show was different. Sorta similar to the Chloe-kidnapped-by-aliens thing.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...
Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.

As are most of the rest of the crew. Everyone is out of their element.

But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.

I'm going with 2, that he had the plan in mind and changed it when he saw what he thought was Rush come through the gate. That's not fundamentally stupid, it's fundamentally decent.

[PG15]

Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.

But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.

[Sami_]

It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.

Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.

[Kaiphantom]

Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

Kay. You're part of the ship now, on your knees as Kiva's troops put a gun to your head, and you're in that situation because of Young. Put yourself in that position, and tell me honestly if you'd be willing to follow that man again. Or whether you'd go "Oops, you screwed up. It happens. Oh well!"

It's easy to say "yeah, it was just a minor oopsie" when you're safe in your computer chair at home. If your life was on the line, I think you'd react a bit differently.

To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.

It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.

Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again.

Your doctor screws up repeatedly, and you're scheduled to go in for him to perform an operation on you. Of course, you'd go in, never mind the fact that the past twelve patients have learned they've had medical instruments left inside them after the operation. Yes, this *does* happen, occasionally, but not several times in a row. I think you'd request a different doctor if you found out your current one has a habit of this.

Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.

Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.

Did you forget 1+1? If I told you I forgot the answer, you'd probably think me fairly stupid.

[PG15]

^Remind me to green you for that.

This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again.

Seriously though, I can partly agree with the thread subject. Feel free to take a look at my first post in the thread if you haven't already; it outlines what I think TPTB should have Young do.

Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.

Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).

I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.

...
Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

Amen

[Sami_]

To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.

[Tuvok]

This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

A whole series of them?

Perhaps.

By himself.

No.

Should he have abandoned Rush on the planet?

No.

Then again Rush should'nt have set him up for murder.

Should he have vented the Gateroom?

Debatable, could have costed Telford life. Also intelligence was limited and was unknown that they could open doors.

Should have surrendered the ship to Kiva?

In the old days his science guy would have come up with a plan to prevent this. Didn't have one and didn't have a choice . Surrender to Kiva with a chance to get the ship back later, a gamble with a chance. Or not, and definately die. Low chance vs No chance, as a leader he did what he had to do.

Should he be replaced?

Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

[Kaiphantom]

But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).

This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.