Too Powerful - Least Credible are the Ori

[JUNIOR]

it's more along the line of...blowing up a hospital's power plant then saying that it's not your fault that all those people inside died because the machines don't work anymore

we have a lot of evidence that the Ancients were far from the nice sweet glowing aliens they are put forth to be. they experimented on beings, made a drug geared towards killing a whole species, yet we're blindly siding with them and we have no real proof that the Ori are evil. yeah, they kill whole planets that don't worship them. that is definitely not nice. yet it's no different from teh human philosophy of 'if you don't have any tech to share, to heck with you' attitude.

Uh?...Wow!...Okay first off, if the Ori are killing whole planets for no reason except that the inhabitants don't want to worship the Ori as gods how is this not evil. Are you suggesting some sort of plot twist which involves some other force or a faction of the Ori here that are manipulating the collective Ori or falsely representing them? Also I don't see how comparing the human philosophy (I assume you mean the SGC, which if you do I don't think is the case) 'of if you don't have tech to share, to heck with you' attitude to the credo of the Ori: 'worship us or die'. ß-HOW IS THIS NOT EVIL!!!

[Milleniumlance]

more interesting would be more fun.

personally? nuby was a joke. he was a cheesy baddie and i found baal to be far more threatening (at least until ex deus machina and the stupidity there)

i still find baal kinda interesting since he's more multi-faceted. you never quite knowwhere you stand with him.

the Ori? no matter what we do with the Ori, we'll lose

we kill them and we'll have planets and planets full of peopel ticked off at us. we kill their followers, well that just makes us mass murderers killing people for believing in 'bad' gods

we'll never convert the believers, their belief is too deeply engrained

no matter what we do, we lose. we're in an unwinnable war

hmmm unwinnable war against an army of religious fanatics...sounds familiar.

[Skydiver]

Uh?...Wow!...Okay first off, if the Ori are killing whole planets for no reason except that the inhabitants don't want to worship the Ori as gods how is this not evil. Are you suggesting some sort of plot twist which involves some other force or a faction of the Ori here that are manipulating the collective Ori or falsely representing them? Also I don't see how comparing the human philosophy (I assume you mean the SGC, which if you do I don't think is the case) 'of if you don't have tech to share, to heck with you' attitude to the credo of the Ori: 'worship us or die'. ß-HOW IS THIS NOT EVIL!!!

i'm not saying that they're not evil. I'm not saying that they're the good guys in any way. but i am saying that we don't know the whole story. Why are they so intolerant towards non-believers? Why are the so afraid of questions?

chances are we know why, yet, other than daniel and orlin's word, we have no proof. We don't know that they're not really ascending folks. For all we know, we - as in the sgc - are being manipulated by the ancients into helping them complete a millennia long civil war amongst themselves

[JUNIOR]

exactly. why do we have to keep making them bigger and badder? Yeah, ok so it would be lame if the newest bad guy was a 98 pound weakling with a killer chihauhaha as his sidekick

but more evil doesn't necessarily = bigger and badder. evil is incidious and those nasty beggers that sneak up on you, that don't appear to be so mean and cruel are often the best villians.

comparing baal and nuby for example.

nuby was like a james bond villian. always coming up with the more complex and super duper plan...which just made him look more and more silly as all his elaborate plans fell apart

baal on the other hand - before the unfortunate plot twist in ex deus machina - was a very good villian. he was quietly evil. no grand plans, no grandious gestures...just simple evilness

now, now he's a joke. a nice looking joke, but a joke nonetheless

So how about a bi-polar Goa'uld?

[Skydiver]

hmmm unwinnable war against an army of religious fanatics...sounds familiar.

too familiar. it's too close to real life for my tastes.

No one wins a religious war...cept the gravediggers

[CueBa'al]

From the Ori point of view, they are good. They are showing the willing the path to enlightenment (or what they believe to be enlightenment), and using force to push their desires upon the unwilling. This is a classic "we're going to heaven, you're gonna burn in hell" type of scenario. Those that renounce their evil ways are saved, those that don't are seen as evil and must be destroyed. Every religion is, has been, or can be interpreted that way.

It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.

[Skydiver]

It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.

presuming, of course, that the shocked and angered believers don't descend on you to seek out vengeance for you killing thier gods...or defacing them i shoud say since gods can't die

the thing is, thus far, the ori have no achilles heel. they constantly and consistently outsmart and outtech us. and since you can't reason with a zealot, that leaves us to out tech them...and given how splendidly the asgard did against the replicators, it ain't gonna be pretty

is it possible that they've made an enemy that's TOO bad, TOO evil, TOO hard to defeat..so that when 'we' do beat them, it's gonna be some way too simple, trite and cheesy manner...kinda like uploading a virus to the mother ship

[CueBa'al]

is it possible that they've made an enemy that's TOO bad, TOO evil, TOO hard to defeat..so that when 'we' do beat them, it's gonna be some way too simple, trite and cheesy manner...kinda like uploading a virus to the mother ship

My thoughts centered upon this subject today. I came to the conclusion that we cannot yet count out the asgard, or the possibility of Vala wrecking things for the Ori by introducing Adria to her first XBox 360...

[Skydiver]

My thoughts centered upon this subject today. I came to the conclusion that we cannot yet count out the asgard, or the possibility of Vala wrecking things for the Ori by introducing Adria to her first XBox 360...

lolol

just hook the kid up to tv, that'll take care of her

[JUNIOR]

i'm not saying that they're not evil. I'm not saying that they're the good guys in any way. but i am saying that we don't know the whole story. Why are they so intolerant towards non-believers? Why are the so afraid of questions?

chances are we know why, yet, other than daniel and orlin's word, we have no proof. We don't know that they're not really ascending folks. For all we know, we - as in the sgc - are being manipulated by the ancients into helping them complete a millennia long civil war amongst themselves

You should run for the senate of Appropriations because your post kind of sounds like something Kinsey or the new senator would say to the SGC. I think the point is that they want to kill the MW inhabitants if they don’t worship them. Even if the Ancients were manipulating the SGC, Jaffa,… to finish their war that they were fighting with the Ori to me this still doesn’t make a difference. The Ori tried to kill us first (Daniel and Vala via Harrid and Salis) not the other way around. If Ori are trying their hardest to kill us off if we don’t believe them then why not help the Ancients its a win-win situation. The Ancients not trying to kill SG-1 and other unbelievers every time they look around the Stargate so how do they say it: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend” (not sure if I got that saying right) and the Ori have definitely made it quite clear that if you don't worship them then you're their enemy.

[JUNIOR]

From the Ori point of view, they are good. They are showing the willing the path to enlightenment (or what they believe to be enlightenment), and using force to push their desires upon the unwilling. This is a classic "we're going to heaven, you're gonna burn in hell" type of scenario. Those that renounce their evil ways are saved, those that don't are seen as evil and must be destroyed. Every religion is, has been, or can be interpreted that way.

It's a no-win situation. If you think it can be won, then you've never tried to sway a religious fanatic from his/her beliefs. Death is the only solution aside from visible and undenyable destruction of the "divine entity" whom is the object of worship. Kill the "God" in front of everyone in a fashion that cannot be disputed, and you will go a long way to dismantling the infrastructure of religious zealotry.

Okay you're forgetting one important thing ....its Scifi....anything can happen.

[CueBa'al]

Problem is that even sci-fi has to have a basis in reality. Reality is that this type of situation has never in recorded history been resolved. There has been perpetual holy war fought over ancient slights for as long as history has been recorded. No one has found a solution to it, if they had our world would be a distinctly different place.

The issue is here that the solution to the Ori problem has no precedent.

That's the way I see it.

IMO, it will end in either a stroke of writing genius or it will be resolved at the hands of Deus Ex Machina (ala holy grail, etc.).

[shiznaw]

I'm not that creative a person myself, but I was hoping that shiznaw would at least present a possible villain that just point out similarities between the different villains of Stargate.

I see a complaint of no resurgence of originality, yet nary a solution to the perceived problem is offered. "Why would you want Half-Life 2 when someone already made Doom, it's just FPS 9.0?"

I don't mean to sound hostile, and if it comes that way I am sorry, I just like reading solutions to more than what seems to be a rant.

I think you've missed the point. The premise that the success of the show's storyboard doesn't have to hinge on whether the villian is bigger and has more incredible powers next season. AS noted by Skydiver, now with the ORi in play, its almost a no win situation for all players in the STargate Universe because of the limitless power and the ostensibly awesome powers they've possessed. I believe that some of the rules in dealing with etheral (sp) beings in the ascended plane have been altered as well just to justify the powers tat the Priors have been given.

I'm sure there's a way out of this mess, but I just don't have an answer. Personally, I wouldn't have created the Ori in the first place, but hey, that's just me. Resources would have been better focused on developing what was already established in prior seasons

[Lord Shiva]

It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".

Ok, so...

Tell us what you'd like to see. I'd rather have the Ori then the Lucian Alliance. Actually, I'd rather STILL have the System Lords, but hey, everything advances, and I'm fine with the Ori.

[Skydiver]

Problem is that even sci-fi has to have a basis in reality. Reality is that this type of situation has never in recorded history been resolved. There has been perpetual holy war fought over ancient slights for as long as history has been recorded. No one has found a solution to it, if they had our world would be a distinctly different place.

The issue is here that the solution to the Ori problem has no precedent.

That's the way I see it.

IMO, it will end in either a stroke of writing genius or it will be resolved at the hands of Deus Ex Machina (ala holy grail, etc.).

and my money is on the cheesy deus ex machina.

kinda like we had in reckoning, kinda like we had in new order with

Spoiler:

jack's super gun, that gets disabled to allow for the bigger and better weapon in reckoning

the thing is, when the writers keep coming up with bigger and badder, without adequately giving said villians real motivation or a well thought out achilles heel, then they simply set themselves up to be mocked because they keep creating the more and more impossible situation and then create teh gizmo to get us out of it.

who needs ingenuity, we just need the next best thing off the 'as seen on tv' website