Too Powerful - Least Credible are the Ori

[Pharaoh Atem]

i think it's great that the ori are so powerful the gou'lud looked strong to use at first but thats beofre we started toi make advancements in tech.

now juts the same thing with the ori our tech needs to catch up to fight them and we'll be all set

[Peoples_General]

i think it's great that the ori are so powerful the gou'lud looked strong to use at first but thats beofre we started toi make advancements in tech.

now juts the same thing with the ori our tech needs to catch up to fight them and we'll be all set

So... make leaps in technology? In other words, reach the Ancient's level of tech? And how many seasons would that take?

[FallenAngelII]

The following was quoted prior:

First come the The Goa'uld were bad, but they were interesting. The whole symbiote things was interesting.. and it made for a cheap enemy too, because it was an alien in a human body and not for silly Star Trek "everybody is human" reasons. Granted, the comic book bad guy dialogue did make the Goa'uld a little cheesy, but really, all in all they were O.K.

Next, The Replicators were also bad, and they were SOMEWHAT interesting. Legos with attitude aren't that scary, but they weren't a virtual copy of the Goa'uld.

Next, we get the "new and improved" Apophis in Season 8. He takes over a larger kingdom. He has bigger ships. He has more troops. He's worse, but there's no great creativity there. He's just "System Lord" 2.0.

Then we have "worse than the Goa'uld" in the form of Anubis-Ascended. The whole "half ascended" bit was supposed to make him scarier, but really he was the same as any other Goa'uld in motives. He still had to gloat. He still had to dominate others in much the same way. Not until the end, in "Threads" when he wanted to destroy all life in the galaxy and start over did Anubis really differentiate himself from other Goa'uld. Sure, he had "worse" warriors than Jaffa, but they weren't very interesting. Sure, he had slightly more tech than other Goa'uld, but really, is slightly better tech anything other than just more of the same? Anubis is "System Lord" 3.0.

Then we have the human-form Replicators. They still want to do the same thing as regular Replicators, but they add a comic book villain element too. Now we can talk to them. Other than that? Not so differernt. These are Replicators 2.0. But they aren't bad enough, so we need to personalize it more. We create history between Carter and Fifth, and now he has a personal grudge against SG1 and humanity in general. Replicator 3.0. Still not enough, let's personalize it some more with a RepliCarter, who is about as personalized as you can get. Replicator 4.0. More of the same. Just "crank up the volume".

For Stargate Atlantis, we have the Wraith, who are a lot like the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld use humanity as unwilling hosts and slaves, while the Wraith use thumanity as unwilling food. Both the Goa'uld and the Wraith have unnatural regenerative powers, and through either nature or technology live forever. Both use the same comic book villain lines. Both are more technologically advanced than humanity. Both rule large swaths of their respective galaxies. Both are dependent upon humanity for their very lives (the Goa'uld as hosts, the Wraith as food). In order to make the Wraith "worse than" the Goa'uld, instead of space enslavers, they are space vampires. So really, in a lot of ways, it is just more of the same.

Now, in season nine, we have the Ori. "Worse than the Goa'uld" we are told. But really, aren't they just another form of ascended being just like Anubis but? Shouldn't they be calling it "Worse than Anubis"?

It seems to me, rather than concentrating on making an enemy "worse than" the predecessor enemy, a more INTERESTING enemy would be a good idea. This whole "Worse Than" craze really is no way to drive a series. Interesting is a lot more important than "worse than".

But when you look at it, AREN'T they ALSO "more interesting than"? First there were the Goa'uld. Then we learned more about them and how they're not just delusional megalomaniacs, giving us personas such as Ba'al.

Then came the Replicaters, once mindless machines, later smart and evil... Carter, Anubis, evil half-descended-ascended being and now the Ori, crazy ascended beings enslaving and destroying worlds.

It's not just "Random bad guy of the season" whose background and stuff we only learn of in apendices and small paragrafs in reference books and stuff. Stargate is not comic booky and it's not just "Worse than...".

And the Wraith are much more than mere space vampires. "Condemned", "Instinct", "Michael" and "Allies" taught us a lot about them.

[Skydiver]

Replicarter was a fantastic villian. Largely because we knew her motivation. to surivive. To have her brethern survive. That was why she did what she die.

Pops, yeah, even understood pops' motivation. And after Serpents Song, when we got to see the poor host, it gave pops a bit more depth.

Nuby? Nuby was a joke. Plain and simple. He was OTT silliness.

Ba'al, well y eah, the clone angle was stupid, but until that point, Ba'al was far more sinister than Nuby and all his grand plans.

The Wraith, in the beginnign they were silly. They were nothing more than blue skinned vampires. But this season we have gotten a different look at them and they are a ton more interesting. And for just the eps that Fifth said. Condemned, Instsinct, Michael and Allies.

To me, the only way the Ori will be anything more than boring men in silly makup is if they give them more depth than 'we want all the power' duh, hello, who doesn't want power? that's always the villian's motivation. Care to give us something more?

[Amanda Eros]

Not no way. We have already seen that there are some people in the Ori galaxy that don't trust the Ori. We just need many more of them.

At the end these worshippers are still human, and, even if it takes something super-drastic (I don't know what, blowing up a galaxy?), they can be convinced. Somehow.

It would seem that there are those who don't believe in the Orii in their galaxy, but they are basically powerless to do anything. Apparently the Priors have the ablity to sence doubt, or have some form of mind reading. (Though why the Prior in Avalon didn't kill Daniel and Vala's hosts long ago is beyond me. That and the one in Crusiade, why he didn't kill the barkeep and whore a long time ago, doesn't really make sence. Unless they had some type of plan that allowed them to stay alive until they had played their part. )

Anyway, they were able to stop the sabatoge against their ships, how successful can anyone else be? The Orii keep their people at the preindustrialzed state to control them and keep them ignorate. Unless they can find old weapons left over from when the Alterrens and the Orii were one race and convince others nothing will change because they will be killed the moment the Orii suspect anything. It's a depressing no win situation.

The only shread of hope is that Daniel will be able to convince Vala's super baby that the Orii are bad and that she has to go and convince the priors that the Orii are bad. Though how long will it be before the Orii eliminate her as well if that course of action does take place.

[Skydiver]

At the end these worshippers are still human, and, even if it takes something super-drastic (I don't know what, blowing up a galaxy?), they can be convinced. Somehow.

i don't think so. these people are fanatics. they will literally DIE before they listen to someone else. they are 100000% indoctrinated into believing that the Ori are gods.

they will not have changes of heart. They do not doubt. They are totally devoted to thier belief and will not change. That is the futility of fighting the Ori. To get to them you have to wade through countless thousands of believers. or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

[Hybridbabe]

or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

Not only will they be mad at you, but it'll further cement their beliefs: by killing off their gods or their Gods' mesengers, you make the ones you executed "martyrs", and people will be even more devout than ever before.

[Skydiver]

and you're back to a lose/lose situation because no matter what you show these folks as proof, they won't believe you.

[Hybridbabe]

and you're back to a lose/lose situation because no matter what you show these folks as proof, they won't believe you.

Which effectively makes us screwed.

[Skydiver]

Which effectively makes us screwed.

yeah, and if vala is any indication, we're screwed but didn't get to have any fun

it does set the ori up as maybe TOO unbeatable. so when earth triumphs it'll be something rather anticlimactic and contrived to get them out of the corner they've written themselves into

[Karec]

Has NO ONE here realised the Ori weakness yet?!
The writers *Mumbles*Blessed are their names*Mumbles* are gonna pull a goa'uld defet on them again There is a resistance movement, Earth has reached the goa'uld's technology level at least enough to fight them of so their no threat anymore so the writers made the ori. Now with merlins weapon and alittle japping and **** every soldier is gonna turn against the Ori and there goes their power source.

They will probably also find more evidance of the ori's poeples past.

[Skydiver]

it's easy to turn folks when you say 'this is a fake god. defeat him and you won't have to slave in the mines'

it's a bit harder when you're saying 'your gods are fake. oh and heaven? ya ain't gonna get there, so sorry'

the people don't see how they've been enslaved so they have nothing to rebel against other than praying a few less hours a day

[PG15]

i don't think so. these people are fanatics. they will literally DIE before they listen to someone else. they are 100000% indoctrinated into believing that the Ori are gods.

they will not have changes of heart. They do not doubt. They are totally devoted to thier belief and will not change. That is the futility of fighting the Ori. To get to them you have to wade through countless thousands of believers. or if you kill the Ori, then you have all those believers mad at you for killing their gods. There is no way to win and there is nothing that can be done to change these folks' minds.

thus is the nature of the fanatic.

Nice that you forgot to quote the part where I said that THERE ARE ALREADY UNBELIEVERS.

If they were such fanatics, why would there be unbelievers?

It would seem that there are those who don't believe in the Orii in their galaxy, but they are basically powerless to do anything. Apparently the Priors have the ablity to sence doubt, or have some form of mind reading. (Though why the Prior in Avalon didn't kill Daniel and Vala's hosts long ago is beyond me. That and the one in Crusiade, why he didn't kill the barkeep and whore a long time ago, doesn't really make sence. Unless they had some type of plan that allowed them to stay alive until they had played their part. )

Anyway, they were able to stop the sabatoge against their ships, how successful can anyone else be? The Orii keep their people at the preindustrialzed state to control them and keep them ignorate. Unless they can find old weapons left over from when the Alterrens and the Orii were one race and convince others nothing will change because they will be killed the moment the Orii suspect anything. It's a depressing no win situation.

The only shread of hope is that Daniel will be able to convince Vala's super baby that the Orii are bad and that she has to go and convince the priors that the Orii are bad. Though how long will it be before the Orii eliminate her as well if that course of action does take place.

See, even when you say the situation is hopeless, you come up with 2 solutions. Not easy solutions mind you, but none of them are.

[Skydiver]

of course there are unbelievers.

but when the unbelievers are what? maybe 5% of the population and are killed when discovered i don't see much potential for a viable form of resistence.

what you would need is 90% of a population to be unbelievers...but when the ori find that, they kill EVERYONE rather than have unbelievers around to spread thier point of view.

like they did on the jaffa planet, like they did with the sodan, like they tried to do with the folks on vala's planet, like they tried to do with earth

and they rarely kill by themselves, they engineer somethng to do it. a disease, a zombie, a third party that can take the blame instead of someone watching a prior massacre a village of women and children.

they kill everyone, then spin the truth to mean what they want it to mean

and again, how can you prove that the Ori are responsible for the bad things when they rarely commit the atrocities themselves? and without proof, how do the fanatical believers change thier minds? presuming, of course, that the ori don't get wind of what is going on and engineer a nice plague to take care of the issue for them

[PG15]

I have no idea, but I know it's not impossible.

There is no such a thing as a no-win situation, at least that's what I think.