S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ReganX]

They cared enough, and were close enough, to say "No. I think you're wrong." Now - apparently SG-1 can't muster that level of interest or energy for each other.

When SG-1 expressed their reservations with Mitchell's less than ingenious plan to pretend to be a drug dealer in "Off The Grid", he dismissed their opinions, despite the fact that they had eight (seven in Daniel's case) years more experience of being on an SG team than he could lay claim to.

If Mitchell is neither sensible enough, nor intelligent enough to heed the advice of those who know far more about what they are doing than he is, could Sam, Daniel and Teal'c really be blamed for not giving advice when they know that it will not be taken?

[Zoser]

This is definitely a situation where it is unnatural not to have conflict. If the writers genuinely felt that they couldn't write conflict, then they should not have created a situation where at least some degree of conflict within the team is inevitable.

We are talking about a situation where a newcomer has not only been thrust into an extremely close knit group, but has also been placed in command of people with far more experience than he has. There is no way that he would be welcomed unreservedly and immediately become part of the family.

I'm not suggesting that they all be at each other's throats, or that Sam, Daniel and Teal'c stage a mutiny - although they would have my full sympathy and support if they did - but to have everybody completely accept the situation without reservations is poor writing.

It makes sense that Sam isn't prepared to march into Landry's office and announce that if she isn't immediately restored to sole command of SG-1, she's leaving the SGC and to he|| with Earth, or to go over his head and appeal to Jack or General Hammond, it would even be in character for her not to want to show her unhappiness over losing command outwardly because she doesn't want to offend Mitchell but it makes no sense whatsoever for her to not be upset over losing a command that we all saw her work extremely hard for, to somebody she knows has only a tiny fraction of her experience and skills or for none of her feelings on the matter to show.

In Season Three, we saw Daniel argue that Sam deserved command of SG-1 over an officer two ranks higher, with nearly three years experience commanding his own team while that officer was present and we heard complaints that neither he nor Teal'c had accepted their new commanding officer's leadership and yet we are expected to believe that neither of them have any problem whatsoever with Sam being demoted in favour of an officer with a tiny fraction of her abilities, experience and intelligence.

Either Mitchell has been routinely dosing all three of them with mind control drugs, or its long past time for the writers to get beta readers.

Perhaps the writers should be presented with a complete set of the DVDs and watch the show.

[Simhavaktra]

When SG-1 expressed their reservations with Mitchell's less than ingenious plan to pretend to be a drug dealer in "Off The Grid", he dismissed their opinions, despite the fact that they had eight (seven in Daniel's case) years more experience of being on an SG team than he could lay claim to.

If Mitchell is neither sensible enough, nor intelligent enough to heed the advice of those who know far more about what they are doing than he is, could Sam, Daniel and Teal'c really be blamed for not giving advice when they know that it will not be taken?

You're right - they did say something, didn't they? And Cam did brush them off like flies, didn't he?

So, that's the death of conflict in SG-1 - the hewo will not hear of it, so It Shall Not Be?

What a load of dreck that course is, and has led to!

[Uber]

NOT THAT THIS IS A DEBATE THREAD... :ahem:

Shades of Grey (3.18)

DANIEL: Sir, uh, I don’t want to seem out of line here, but, uh, since I’m a civilian here and the only one who can say this --

HAMMOND: Spit it out, Doctor.

DANIEL: Well, no offence, but doesn’t Major Carter deserve to take charge of SG1?

HAMMOND: Major Carter has an exemplary record on the team as recognised by her recent promotion to Major. But Major is a far cry from Colonel.

CARTER: I understand, General.

DANIEL: I’m sorry, I don’t. What difference does it make what title she has? The point is that the --

Forever in a Day (3.10)

O’NEILL: General, I need to -- (He glances at Rothman) -- talk to you alone.

He walks off with Hammond.

DANIEL: How are they treating you, Robert?

ROTHMAN: Oh, uh well, I-I think they’d rather have you. Especially Colonel O’Neill.

DANIEL: Well don’t let Jack get to you. He’s just intimidated by you because you’re way smarter than he is.

Rothman laughs uncertainly, then leaves.

Redemption (6.01)

HAMMOND: ... Daniel Jackson provided SG-1 with invaluable knowledge, linguistic skills and, in my opinion, a very beneficial viewpoint. One I think is important enough to try and replace.

HAMMOND: ... my patience is starting to wear thin on this matter. I think I've given you a great deal of latitude lately, given the situation.

O'NEILL: Sir --

HAMMOND: Jack, you're off the mission list anyway until that knee fully heals. Use the time to try and get some perspective. Find someone qualified you can work with. I'll have all available personnel files forwarded to you. Dismissed.

The edginess regarding Jonas continues for the rest of Redemption 1 and 2, and then trickless off gradually in subsequent episodes.

Unfortunately, we saw nothing like these examples in S9.

You forgot Children of the Gods. *cheesy grin*

See there we saw how Jack had a specific idea of what he wanted on his team and was FORCED to have a *gasp*SCIENTIST on his team...and he bucked at the idea. Once he realized it was a losing battle, he went with the flow...but it took awhile before she really earned his respect.

And with Jonas...he was finally fully accepted as one of their own...but it happened in Prophecy (one of his last episodes). Sam even tells Jonas... "See? I told you he would warm up to you eventually." It started to happen in Descent though. I think Teal'c was the first to lighten up to Jonas, then Sam (who helped him out but made it clear it was only because she was ordered to do so) and then finally Jack.

There was a lot of tension. Jonas wanted to prove himself and fighting the feelings of ill will they harbored. It felt natural for them to not immediately accept him and for him to be the outsider earning their trust.

How they respond to Mitchell is completely unnatural.

[Zoser]

But, that's a good description of how SG-1 has always been in regards to human interaction and relationships relative to true "dramas". This is all par for the course.

I don't see the show as a true "drama", but an "action/adventure" show. A true drama would be all about conflict between people's individual goals and the messy-ness of relationships. SG-1 may dabble oh so lightly in those concepts but it doesn't jump in head first the way a show like BSG does. This isn't just a Season 9 and 10 Stargate comment but a Season 1-10 Stargate comment.

From what I can tell, the show is the way many fans like it to be. I've seen people say BSG is too dark for them. Well, conflict *is* dark to some people, I suppose.

I'm relatively new to this show's fandom, though I've been a casual, un-addicted viewer for years. I can't tell you how many fans since I joined have told me it's about "team" this and "team" that. I've gotten the message. No one has ever described Stargate as being about conflict between the team members.

Of course, it's not true-to-life, but it never has been.

There have been quite marked differences of opinion - culture vs weapons, Reese's fate, Carter's reaction to Daniel's death vs Jack's, secrecy vs disclosure. Sometimes it is hot mostly not but without conflict there is no drama - no drama no show.

[DEM]

You forgot Children of the Gods. *cheesy grin*

Grrr. I limited my excerpts to the episodes I mentioned in my post of 4 hours ago.

[AGateFan]

Yep the overbearing, over annoying, soap opera angst that is present in most of those other shows (except B5) has not been present in Stargate. But neither is the sappy happy, happyness of the Startrek.

There has been conflict. Most usually the conflict is SG-1 against everyone else (be it gou'ld, USAF, Washington, Jaffa or tokra) but there has been internal conflict as well. The type of conflict you expect from people that work together and like each other but dont exactly agree with everything the others say. The show was built on it with the hippie vs the military. The geeks vs the soldiers.

With mitchell there is no conflict of any type, from the writers point of veiw he is perfect-perfect and when hes not perfect, thats perfect too... everyone loves him, everyone emphasizes with him, everyone is completely and utterly focused on him, because they think he is that cool. He is after all the all sacraficing hewo who single handely saved the SG-1, heck he saved the wwwooorrrrllldddd and deserves everything he gets. (including the ratings)

[EmmaPeel]

Unfortunately, we saw nothing like these examples in S9.

That's because in spite of the name of the show being the same, it is NOT Stargate SG-1 anymore. It's the New Stargate - new people to care about. Not one member of SG-1 even so much as one time for 10 seconds mentioned Jack's name in S9; nothing as simple as, "I wonder how Jack is doing." Nada. After that, not much surprised me.

But, in S10, it seems like we are going to get Daniel coming to care about Vala, feeling she is worth redemption, giving her his friendship trust and loyalty, fighting for her to have a place on the team, etc. There will be caring; there will be "team," even though it's a different team. I'm convinced S10 will be the Vala/Daniel show and that really disinterests me.

[ReganX]

But, in S10, it seems like we are going to get Daniel coming to care about Vala, feeling she is worth redemption, giving her his friendship trust and loyalty, fighting for her to have a place on the team, etc. There will be caring; there will be "team," even though it's a different team. I'm convinced S10 will be the Vala/Daniel show and that really disinterests me.

I'll be surprised if it stays the Vala/Daniel show for long before mutating into the Vala/Cam show.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle Jack's appearances. His connection with his team - and SG-1 will always be his team - and the bond between him, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c is something that I would like to see shown but I have my doubts about whether it will be shown because TPTB may not want to show a bond that Mitchell and Vala are not a part of.

My fear is that we will either see completely forced scenes with Mitchell and Vala prominently shown as "part of the family", with Jack giving Mitchell his whole-hearted endorsement as his successor (Sam? Sam who?) commiserating with Vala over her child, etc, or else the scenes between Jack and his team will be cut down to a bare minimum and the bond between them intentionally ignored.

[binkpmmc]

I'll be surprised if it stays the Vala/Daniel show for long before mutating into the Vala/Cam show.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle Jack's appearances. His connection with his team - and SG-1 will always be his team - and the bond between him, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c is something that I would like to see shown but I have my doubts about whether it will be shown because TPTB may not want to show a bond that Mitchell and Vala are not a part of.

My fear is that we will either see completely forced scenes with Mitchell and Vala prominently shown as "part of the family", with Jack giving Mitchell his whole-hearted endorsement as his successor (Sam? Sam who?) commiserating with Vala over her child, etc, or else the scenes between Jack and his team will be cut down to a bare minimum and the bond between them intentionally ignored.

After seeing the debacle and crock o' crap TPKTS served up in S9 my $$ is on the scenes between Jack and his team (that would be the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) being cut down to nothing that even smells like cameraderie or that they saved each others butts, as well as the world, the galaxy, etc., dozens of times together for 8 years especially in light of the fact that one of his two appearances is essentially wasted on utter dreck of the fantasy, farcical circus (quite appropriate to represent where I think the show has devolved to).

[AGateFan]

After seeing the debacle and crock o' crap TPKTS served up in S9 my $$ is on the scenes between Jack and his team (that would be the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) being cut down to nothing that even smells like cameraderie or that they saved each others butts, as well as the world, the galaxy, etc., dozens of times together for 8 years especially in light of the fact that one of his two appearances is essentially wasted on utter dreck of the fantasy, farcical circus (quite appropriate to represent where I think the show has devolved to).

I bet he will be all doey eyed after Carter. They will turn the little subtext into the shipper dream. That is the only reason they are bringing him back isnt it? Besides that, he probably wont even remember anyone elses name except Mitchell, Landry and Walter (he is PDLs pet after all)

[ReganX]

After seeing the debacle and crock o' crap TPKTS served up in S9 my $$ is on the scenes between Jack and his team (that would be the BIG 3 of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c) being cut down to nothing that even smells like cameraderie or that they saved each others butts, as well as the world, the galaxy, etc., dozens of times together for 8 years especially in light of the fact that one of his two appearances is essentially wasted on utter dreck of the fantasy, farcical circus (quite appropriate to represent where I think the show has devolved to).

My prayer is that Season Ten is the last, and that TPTB realize that Mitchell and Vala (not Browder and Black) and the way the characters were handled bear a significant share of the responsibility for the show's demise.

[Skydiver]

they won't realize it, and even if they do, they won't admit it.

they will NEVER admit any sort of blame or fault. everything they do is grand and great and it's all our fault for not recognizing the wonder that is thier work

[Krilia]

I bet he will be all doey eyed after Carter. They will turn the little subtext into the shipper dream. That is the only reason they are bringing him back isnt it? Besides that, he probably wont even remember anyone elses name except Mitchell, Landry and Walter (he is PDLs pet after all)

On one hand, that would involve tying up a loose end - what state is Carter and Jack's relationship in. I can't picture them doing that, because they seem bound and determined to keep it in a limbo kind of state, lest they make either shippers or anti-shippers too upset.

But on the other hand, if they brought Jack back JUST to do that, that would certainly demonstrate in another way how they could do something right and yet so wrong at the same time.

[LaCroix]

My prayer is that Season Ten is the last, and that TPTB realize that Mitchell and Vala (not Browder and Black) and the way the characters were handled bear a significant share of the responsibility for the show's demise.

The end is very near nigh. Ten will be the last and everyone parts, and seprate ways.