S10: Critique & Contemplation

[smurf]

Re: Company of Thieves spoilers.
Am I a bad person because I laughed at this line.

Spoiler:

But when Teal'c is captured and brutally interrogated by Netan's men, Cameron must think quickly.

The episode seems incredibly complicated for 40-odd minutes of screen time. I can't see many team/character moments in this episode, it'll just be the characters wandering from situation to situation.

Recently I've rewatched the first four eps of S6 and it strikes me how they have so much space to breathe. Most of the plots can be written on the back of a postage stamp, and yet they're still interesting, but more importantly having less plot gives plenty of time for those team and character moments sorely missing from S9 (and, IMO, S8).
A good 30 seconds to a minute of Descent involves Jonas taking a banana out of his pocket and the exchange of looks that follows before the dialogue starts. Or the long moment in Redemption Part 2 where the lightbulb goes off in Sam's head - no huge exposition, no movement, just watch the expression change on her face when she works it out.

Stargate has always been plot driven but not to the detriment of the characters. With all the character moments that have hit the cutting room floor of late, maybe they need to start cutting down the plots a little?
And they could probably save a bit of time and money working that way.

[Skydiver]

Re: Company of Thieves spoilers.
Am I a bad person because I laughed at this line.

Spoiler:

But when Teal'c is captured and brutally interrogated by Netan's men, Cameron must think quickly.

well if you know who is thinking, it must be a two parter

i too find that line exceedingly humorous

[Skydiver]

Stargate has always been plot driven but not to the detriment of the characters. With all the character moments that have hit the cutting room floor of late, maybe they need to start cutting down the plots a little?
And they could probably save a bit of time and money working that way.

maybe they need to get someone writing/producing/directing the show that gives more emphasis to the characters instead of bombs, boobs and butts????

the ton of character interaction is why i like s6 so much

those little moments, little looks, glances, quips, they're what makes this group of people a team. not some patch on a jacket

[golfbooy]

Re: Company of Thieves spoilers.
Am I a bad person because I laughed at this line.

Spoiler:

But when Teal'c is captured and brutally interrogated by Netan's men, Cameron must think quickly.

The episode seems incredibly complicated for 40-odd minutes of screen time. I can't see many team/character moments in this episode, it'll just be the characters wandering from situation to situation.

Recently I've rewatched the first four eps of S6 and it strikes me how they have so much space to breathe. Most of the plots can be written on the back of a postage stamp, and yet they're still interesting, but more importantly having less plot gives plenty of time for those team and character moments sorely missing from S9 (and, IMO, S8).
A good 30 seconds to a minute of Descent involves Jonas taking a banana out of his pocket and the exchange of looks that follows before the dialogue starts. Or the long moment in Redemption Part 2 where the lightbulb goes off in Sam's head - no huge exposition, no movement, just watch the expression change on her face when she works it out.

Stargate has always been plot driven but not to the detriment of the characters. With all the character moments that have hit the cutting room floor of late, maybe they need to start cutting down the plots a little?
And they could probably save a bit of time and money working that way.

I had the exact same initial reaction after reading the Company of Thieves spoilers. The episode, right now, just sounds like a complete mess. It's all over the place, and it's crammed full to the point of smothering itself to death. This, more than anything else, has been my biggest fear with the ever growing cast. Atlantis has the same problem. There are too many characters to service in this episode and I can't fathom how any of them will be given enough time to make the episode work on any but the shallowest of levels. Add to that the fact that it sounds like a startlingly absurd, contrived plotline to get every single other character besides Col. Eyeore captured by the laughable Lucian Alliance and, well, I'm less than enthused.

You're right, though. Up until season nine, episodes weren't written to be jammed packed with nothing but inane, plodding plot points. No, the lack of patience and pacing with episodes is a hallmark of New Stargate, and it sucks. No character gets the time that they deserve. None of them. Stargate episodes were so well paced for so long; there always seemed to be so much time for the characters, for fleshing out the details of a story. The sudden and violent jump away from this fundamental tenet is, I think, one of the reasons why there are so many people who are "anti". And it's a primary reason why the "antis" are so extremely unhappy.

Alan McCollough in particluar seems to have a habit of smashing what should be two separate episodes together into one hour. Off the Grid was like that, as was Stronghold. So was Arthur's Mantle. More plot stuff does not automatically equal bigger and better. I am reluctant to call it lazy writing, but it must certainly make it easier to fill your time if you have so much stuff to jam into an episode. Those pesky emotional beats are so difficult to write well, and they lack explosions, gunfire, and CGI that so effectively obfuscate an episode's flaws. Character beats must be too cheap. Yeah, that's it. If it doesn't cost anything then it must not be worth doing.

[esoap524]

Re: Company of Thieves spoilers.



Recently I've rewatched the first four eps of S6 and it strikes me how they have so much space to breathe. Most of the plots can be written on the back of a postage stamp, and yet they're still interesting, but more importantly having less plot gives plenty of time for those team and character moments sorely missing from S9 (and, IMO, S8).
.

I don't know...24 and Battlestar Galactica both manage to jam pack plot and character into 40 minutes without me walking out of the room and coming back to the same conversation. For me, "so much space to breathe" is not a good thing in a TV show.

A little action wouldn't bother me too much. Balancing action and character...it can be done.

[smurf]

But space to breathe does not mean to sit in one room having the same conversation.
It's the build up into the action, it's the quiet before the storm, it's the counterpoint to the excitement. If we are constantly on the go then the viewer gets fatigued, they lose concentration, and the only way to fix that (in the current TPTB opinion) is to have more action rather than better paced action.

Anyway, if the writers could remember how to write action and character we wouldn't have this extremely long thread.

[suse]

The e-mail to express grips or praise regarding Sci-fi and its programming is
[email protected]

I have e-mailed to the feedback addy as well but you wont get any response.
It does seem they at least read them and that is a good thing.

I'd like to tell 'em to Get A Grip...

Suse

[suse]

clothes? clothes? you mean they may actually let the women wear clothes?

What "original" thinkers, those Ferengi...I mean TPTB.

Suse

[Skydiver]

it's an apt analolgy

treat women like second class citizens, keep them down and submissive and see them as only objects of desire...and the central motive is money

misogyny and moolah

two great predjudices that go great together

[ToasterOnFire]

But space to breathe does not mean to sit in one room having the same conversation.
It's the build up into the action, it's the quiet before the storm, it's the counterpoint to the excitement. If we are constantly on the go then the viewer gets fatigued, they lose concentration, and the only way to fix that (in the current TPTB opinion) is to have more action rather than better paced action.

I agree - I think it's better to have a buildup to the action and show the decline after the action as well. This allows the viewers to see how the events affected the characters and provide some opportunity for interactions and development. There are plenty of SG1 and Atlantis episodes that just seem to end suddenly after the action, which always gave me the jarring sense that TPTB just ran out of time.

CoT does sound jam packed. Guess we'll have to wait to see what it's jam packed with...

[smurf]

Gnawing at me on the way home.
If you were a current PTB which character moment would you remove from season 6 (using this cos IMO it's the last great season) to add more plot/action?

Imagine if they made Paradise Lost now (I know, give it time ) and playing it without the fishing scene, and the locker room scene. Neither add to the central plot and both would be the first to hit the cutting room floor, but what a great loss that would be.
Would anyone honestly trade those two scenes for more running around, explosions, and one-liners?

It makes me wonder how much of the good stuff does still exist. Just nowhere where we can see it.

[Skydiver]

if i was gonna rewrite s6 to s9 standards, the invisible aliens in sight unseen wouda been half naked sexy women that kept peeping in the showers

[suse]

I agree - I think it's better to have a buildup to the action and show the decline after the action as well. This allows the viewers to see how the events affected the characters and provide some opportunity for interactions and development. There are plenty of SG1 and Atlantis episodes that just seem to end suddenly after the action, which always gave me the jarring sense that TPTB just ran out of time.

CoT does sound jam packed. Guess we'll have to wait to see what it's jam packed with...

Jam packed with many reasons to cut Sam's lines as "unnecessary", I'm sure.

Suse

[smurf]

if i was gonna rewrite s6 to s9 standards, the invisible aliens in sight unseen wouda been half naked sexy women that kept peeping in the showers

Sounds like a Vala episode waiting to happen.


Speaking of Sight Unseen; I'd trade all the action moments in that for more of the character bits. The ep contained the moment when Sam's relationship with Jonas changed, shame we had to spend half the episode with the deeply irritating Vernon.

[Strix varia]

I had the exact same initial reaction after reading the Company of Thieves spoilers. The episode, right now, just sounds like a complete mess. It's all over the place, and it's crammed full to the point of smothering itself to death. This, more than anything else, has been my biggest fear with the ever growing cast. Atlantis has the same problem. There are too many characters to service in this episode and I can't fathom how any of them will be given enough time to make the episode work on any but the shallowest of levels. Add to that the fact that it sounds like a startlingly absurd, contrived plotline to get every single other character besides Col. Eyeore captured by the laughable Lucian Alliance and, well, I'm less than enthused.

You're right, though. Up until season nine, episodes weren't written to be jammed packed with nothing but inane, plodding plot points. No, the lack of patience and pacing with episodes is a hallmark of New Stargate, and it sucks. No character gets the time that they deserve. None of them. Stargate episodes were so well paced for so long; there always seemed to be so much time for the characters, for fleshing out the details of a story. The sudden and violent jump away from this fundamental tenet is, I think, one of the reasons why there are so many people who are "anti". And it's a primary reason why the "antis" are so extremely unhappy.

Alan McCollough in particluar seems to have a habit of smashing what should be two separate episodes together into one hour. Off the Grid was like that, as was Stronghold. So was Arthur's Mantle. More plot stuff does not automatically equal bigger and better. I am reluctant to call it lazy writing, but it must certainly make it easier to fill your time if you have so much stuff to jam into an episode. Those pesky emotional beats are so difficult to write well, and they lack explosions, gunfire, and CGI that so effectively obfuscate an episode's flaws. Character beats must be too cheap. Yeah, that's it. If it doesn't cost anything then it must not be worth doing.

Oh good grief. I just read the spoilers. Off the Grid and Stronghold were two of my least favorite eps last season, and here McCollough goes combining my least favorite aspects of both episodes. Apparently, to McCollough's mind, they were so good the first time, they needed to be repeated.

Spoiler:

Not only do we have Mitchell going undercover again, but we have him rescuing Teal'c (who is being tortured) all by himself again. Oh, and just rescuing Teal'c isn't good enough; he also gets to rescue Sam, Daniel, and Vala, too. And possibly the entire crew of the ship. Thank goodness SG-1 has Mitchell to pull their asses out of the fire. Mitchell appears to be the only competent person on the entire team. And Teal'c makes such a lovely punching bag.