Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Khentkawes]

For me, all of the SG-1 team members have built their friendships on common experiences, sometimes ones they shared together like in Serpent's Grasp, or in pairs like Sam and Jack in Solitudes, Sam and Daniel in Gamekeeper, Jack and Teal'c in Tangent, or Jack and Daniel in Abyss. Probably what I love most about the show was the variety of friendships showcased in the SG-1 team, and to me at least, they all felt natural and complemented each other. The whole team, with all its myriad of emotions and relationships, is what caught my attention and made me become more than just a casual Stargate fan.

I don't think anyone here is denying the team dynamic, or that all of the team members have close ties to each other. They have to be close in order for the team to function. And it sounds like you and I had a similar experience, in that the friendships and the relationships within the team were also the reason that I became a true fan of this show. I might have watched it even if those friendships weren't there, but I would have been a causal viewer at best (as I was with Atlantis). But the friendships intrigued me and made me more interested in the show.

What I tried to say in the past (and what I think other posters also expressed) was that I feel that Sam and Jack's friendship is not as close as some of the other friendships because of their positions in the Air Force, because they have little in common outside of work, and because it would be inapporpriate for them to spend large amounts of time alone together. I'm not denying that they are friends, I just think that their friendship is different, for many reasons, and IMHO, it's a friendship based more on work than on their personal lives. I'm sorry if you disagree, or if you think that it diminished their friendship in some way, but like I said, it's just my opinion. If you don't agree, I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to change your your mind, or anyone else's.

Hi Sorry to drop in on you guys, I know it's not the best place for me to post, but since Frostfox gave her permission (sorta).. I just have a few questions to ask, and then I'll be back to lurking, no worries.

Hi, aga! *waves* To add to what has already been said, yes this thread used to be the anti-S/J thread. Many of us are willing to discuss with shippers so long as they don't try to convert us or tell us we are delusional for not seeing things their way (you can laugh, but I have been told I was delusional a time or two... hence the reason I don't usually bring up S/J issues on other threads if I can avoid it... quite simply, I don't feel safe bringing it up elsewhere). So yes, some of us do view this place as a bit of a haven where we can express our gripes and discuss why we felt like S/J didn't work for us. But it's also an open discussion thread... just like every other thread. The tough part about these new GW guidelines (for me, at least) is that I have to decide if it's worthwhile to engage a discussion in a thread where the prevailing attidute differs from my own. Sometimes it can provide interesting discussion, sometimes it provides only frustration.

So, that's my long-winded way of confirming FrostFox's statement that everyone is welcome here, so long as they understand the purpose of this thread and respect the posters who frequent it.

And given that my personal experiences with casual viewers differ from yours, I don't think anyone from us fans can tell what the "general audience" likes.

I agree. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I am fully aware that I can't speak for the "general" audience. No one can. I was just trying to say that, in my experience, S/J is not a big issue outside of the dedicated online fandom. And I have met loyal viewers (who never particpated in online fandom,) who were confsued by the very idea of S/J. So I assume that TPTB will consider the difference between the die-hard online fans and the casual viewers (or non-internet fans) when they make the third movie. Obviously that's just my opinion based on my experiences.

I've been reading through this thread, and find myself agreeing with most of you. I must admit I never saw the S/J ship in the first three seasons, but later it got pretty obvious, I think. I wish they would have kept to the team-stories, as that is what I like best about SG-1. The ship was bad for the characters of both Jack and Sam, though mostly for Sam, I think.

So say we all. (and welcome to the thread )

[Frostfox]

I don't think anyone here is denying the team dynamic, or that all of the team members have close ties to each other. They have to be close in order for the team to function. And it sounds like you and I had a similar experience, in that the friendships and the relationships within the team were also the reason that I became a true fan of this show. I might have watched it even if those friendships weren't there, but I would have been a causal viewer at best (as I was with Atlantis). But the friendships intrigued me and made me more interested in the show.

Rich and interesting and believable friendships are rather rare on TV. It's nice to see them.

What I tried to say in the past (and what I think other posters also expressed) was that I feel that Sam and Jack's friendship is not as close as some of the other friendships because of their positions in the Air Force, because they have little in common outside of work, and because it would be inapporpriate for them to spend large amounts of time alone together. I'm not denying that they are friends, I just think that their friendship is different, for many reasons, and IMHO, it's a friendship based more on work than on their personal lives. I'm sorry if you disagree, or if you think that it diminished their friendship in some way, but like I said, it's just my opinion. If you don't agree, I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to change your your mind, or anyone else's.

Bingo. I can see a friendship, I just can't see one you could build a lifetime on, the connection, the spark just isn't there. Particularly obvious if you flick back to season one and see just the few brief moments of Jack with Sara, that is chemistry, in a couple of scenes they had me convinced more than 8 seasons of Sam 'n Sir.

Hi, aga! *waves* To add to what has already been said, yes this thread used to be the anti-S/J thread. Many of us are willing to discuss with shippers so long as they don't try to convert us or tell us we are delusional for not seeing things their way (you can laugh, but I have been told I was delusional a time or two... hence the reason I don't usually bring up S/J issues on other threads if I can avoid it... quite simply, I don't feel safe bringing it up elsewhere). So yes, some of us do view this place as a bit of a haven where we can express our gripes and discuss why we felt like S/J didn't work for us. But it's also an open discussion thread... just like every other thread. The tough part about these new GW guidelines (for me, at least) is that I have to decide if it's worthwhile to engage a discussion in a thread where the prevailing attidute differs from my own. Sometimes it can provide interesting discussion, sometimes it provides only frustration.

So, that's my long-winded way of confirming FrostFox's statement that everyone is welcome here, so long as they understand the purpose of this thread and respect the posters who frequent it.

A debate will only work if those you are debating with play fair and are prepared to enter into discourse rather than bullying and harrying. Some threads are more open than others.

I agree. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I am fully aware that I can't speak for the "general" audience. No one can. I was just trying to say that, in my experience, S/J is not a big issue outside of the dedicated online fandom. And I have met loyal viewers (who never particpated in online fandom,) who were confsued by the very idea of S/J. So I assume that TPTB will consider the difference between the die-hard online fans and the casual viewers (or non-internet fans) when they make the third movie. Obviously that's just my opinion based on my experiences.

So say we all. (and welcome to the thread )

I'd be very, very surprised if MGM didn't do some independent customer research, I would for a multi million pound franchise. If corporations start basing ideas on online fans, they are in for a nasty surprise as I don't think online fans are at all representative of Joe Public.

FF

[EvenstarSRV]

What I tried to say in the past (and what I think other posters also expressed) was that I feel that Sam and Jack's friendship is not as close as some of the other friendships because of their positions in the Air Force, because they have little in common outside of work, and because it would be inapporpriate for them to spend large amounts of time alone together. I'm not denying that they are friends, I just think that their friendship is different, for many reasons, and IMHO, it's a friendship based more on work than on their personal lives. I'm sorry if you disagree, or if you think that it diminished their friendship in some way, but like I said, it's just my opinion. If you don't agree, I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to change your your mind, or anyone else's.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion either, I'm content just to agree to disagree.

My main interest in this thread was a place to discuss Sam and Jack in a non-shippy way, what I see as their friendship, etc. As my view on their friendship differs quite a bit from most others here, and I'm not an anti-shipper just a non-shipper, I don't think this thread is quite for me.

[discodiva]

Bingo. I can see a friendship, I just can't see one you could build a lifetime on, the connection, the spark just isn't there. Particularly obvious if you flick back to season one and see just the few brief moments of Jack with Sara, that is chemistry, in a couple of scenes they had me convinced more than 8 seasons of Sam 'n Sir.

FF

Bingo!.......nail. head. on. hit.........well said that woman......sums my feelings up totally....


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

Bingo!.......nail. head. on. hit.........well said that woman......sums my feelings up totally....

Deeds xx

4.20 am, someone's body clock is still on Vancouver time?

We kind of share a brain on this one Deeds.

I'm off to Portmeirion today, may not have teh interwebz for a week, so if I disappear, I'm out there walking on beaches and drinking beer. It will depend on how clever the tech of my friends is. Times like this I could do with a Sam.

FF

[discodiva]

4.20 am, someone's body clock is still on Vancouver time?

We kind of share a brain on this one Deeds.

I'm off to Portmeirion today, may not have teh interwebz for a week, so if I disappear, I'm out there walking on beaches and drinking beer. It will depend on how clever the tech of my friends is. Times like this I could do with a Sam.

FF

Indeedy!....up nearly 6 hours now and bouncing off the walls punch drunk!...


Enjoy your break and drink plenty of beer and other such like forbidden (for me anyway) beverages and nibbles!.....


Deeds xx

[Petra]

Hi, aga! *waves* To add to what has already been said, yes this thread used to be the anti-S/J thread. Many of us are willing to discuss with shippers so long as they don't try to convert us or tell us we are delusional for not seeing things their way (you can laugh, but I have been told I was delusional a time or two... hence the reason I don't usually bring up S/J issues on other threads if I can avoid it... quite simply, I don't feel safe bringing it up elsewhere). So yes, some of us do view this place as a bit of a haven where we can express our gripes and discuss why we felt like S/J didn't work for us. But it's also an open discussion thread... just like every other thread. The tough part about these new GW guidelines (for me, at least) is that I have to decide if it's worthwhile to engage a discussion in a thread where the prevailing attidute differs from my own. Sometimes it can provide interesting discussion, sometimes it provides only frustration.

Hi Khent *waves back* Thank you, Frostfox and Callista for replies and explanations. I guess we'll try to revive ship discussion thread then. I don't mind discussing other pairings as well, although I really ship only S/J.

I'll reply there to some things I read here (boy, that's confusing ), in a few days. Right now I have an exam to prepare for.

[Frostfox]

Hi Khent *waves back* Thank you, Frostfox and Callista for replies and explanations. I guess we'll try to revive ship discussion thread then. I don't mind discussing other pairings as well, although I really ship only S/J.

I'll reply there to some things I read here (boy, that's confusing ), in a few days. Right now I have an exam to prepare for.

Good luck.
I am on holiday, so won't be posting much but we can haz interwebz!! Hurrah for technology!

FF

[Frostfox]

Agreed. It's like beating a dead horse.

I'm just waiting too see what they'll do in the 3rd movie.

I prefer Carter/Baal for fun anyway lol.

My gut tells me film three is their last chance.

I think TPTB think they will be writing a Roslin/Adama type romance which will touch the heart-strings.
Sadly, it will be much more reminiscent of Troi/Riker.
SF fans still shudder over that one.

They went fishing at the end of season eight. Which is what the S/J fans had mithered for years for. S/J fans saw Sam getting her man, twu wuv and all that baloney, the rest of the fanbase/casual fans/team fans saw a good teamy ending, how Jack's leaving should always have been, the big four together at the end.
Both sides were happy, story over. Now it's a dead horse and most of the S/J fans have moved on and there is a huge batch of new fans who don't give a fig. It's going to be Troi/Riker all over again.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

I just took Jack and Sam off my shipper list in my sig because I really couldn't ship them anymore I was only a minor shipper of them anyways but the more I thought about it the more they didn't work as couple. When I watched the DVDs the time I shipped them was during the first 3 seasons then it turned into something that I didn't like I wish WoO was in season 3 because that is how I thought of them I hope that I didn't offend anyone but to me both were attractive people and if there was no repercussions for it then sure but I never thought Sam was chasing Jack or pining for him she was career focused and for scientists that is not uncommon. I have Sam with Agent Barret in my AU. Not sure about Jack maybe the CIA lady

what am going to do about my clones now lol

[Frostfox]

I just took Jack and Sam off my shipper list in my sig because I really couldn't ship them anymore I was only a minor shipper of them anyways but the more I thought about it the more they didn't work as couple. When I watched the DVDs the time I shipped them was during the first 3 seasons then it turned into something that I didn't like I wish WoO was in season 3 because that is how I thought of them I hope that I didn't offend anyone but to me both were attractive people and if there was no repercussions for it then sure but I never thought Sam was chasing Jack or pining for him she was career focused and for scientists that is not uncommon. I have Sam with Agent Barret in my AU. Not sure about Jack maybe the CIA lady

what am going to do about my clones now lol

You'll have to re-home the clones!

Your post shows that it's very hard for the writers to please all the fans, that all fans are looking for different things from the show. No matter how critical I am of TPTB, I know that writing isn't an easy task and they managed 10 seasons and two films, so they clearly did some things right.

FF

[jckfan55]

Maybe too much contact with or concern about fans is a bad thing for PTB...

[Frostfox]

Maybe too much contact with or concern about fans is a bad thing for PTB...

It was completely unheard of in Trek.
Even my friends who write Trek lit are held in some kind of religious awe (they wouldn't be if people knew 'em!) by fans.

The Bridge Studio is the total reverse, too much so in my opinion, they should be focusing on good storytelling not pandering to whoever yells loudest.

Fan interaction is fabulous, I adore how creative fans are, and that means all fans. But judging what to do with a multi million pound franchise based on letters to the office (or whatever) is really dodgy.
Imagine the mess we'd be in if the politicians listened to those lunatics who stand on street corners (or at soldiers funerals - which horrifies me beyond comprehension) saying that god hates gays. Just because something is visible, doesn't mean it's a majority view or the right thing to do.

At conventions, Amanda hears cheers when she mentions S/J.
Does that mean the majority of the audience wants to see it? Or does it mean that the majority are too polite to say that it doesn't appeal to them? Ten or twenty or a hundred cheering in an audience of 500 can make a lot of impact. What about the other 400 who don't cheer? What about the viewing audience beyond the convention who don't have any interaction with fandom or the actors/writers/TPTB?
When I've met a member of the cast or TPTB I've never mentioned that S/J (and D/V and relationships in general) turn me off from the show. It's not about me and what I want; it's about good storytelling and characterization. When I meet someone involved with SG1 I want to tell them what they are doing well or ask about what they are doing beyond the show, not what I don't like.
So perceptions get skewed.

Troi/Riker was popular in its day. Its day came and went long, long before they finished the storyline.
Ditto S/J. It's an old plotline, it's finished. I want to look forward not harp on about something which didn't work for me and for a lot of casual fans. Something good, not character and team assassination.

FF

[Coela Bellatore]

In the end I hear that every script that they run has to be approved by the pentagon so whatever they want is going to get the go. Maybe all the shippers should go protest there.

[discodiva]

*sighs*....we had at least 2 questions in Vancouver re: S/J ship, plus the usual "squealing" every time he got within a few feet of her during the fan vids shown....from a vocal minority for sure (but that's excusable - people squeal when their favourite in SG always comes on in one of those..).....Amanda was gracious and answered as tactfully as possible...but I'm sure it must get very hard to try and please all people all the time...hey - isn't there a saying about that somewhere?.....like you can't!...

I would NEVER dream of passing on my desires for "confirmation" re: my fanfiction pairing () and do not understand this incessant need for it in S/J ship....

I do blame some of the writers for encouraging so much interaction between fans and them.....my own opinion is that with the growth of the internet there is now TOO much interaction between fans and writers/stars/etc....many fans now feel it's their right to "demand" constant interaction from said writers/stars/etc - please DO NOT get me started on the demands for the likes of MS to start blogging again or Twittering!!......just leave the man in peace to get on with the important things in life - like finding constant work to further his career, pay the bills and support his wife and children!.....grrrrrrrrrrrrr!...

*takes deep breath*...but I digress.....


I sometimes wish the old style "magic" was there....no spoilers, no fan input on certain writers' blogs .......and none of this belief that one fan group has a greater "right" to a conclusion than others......


Deeds xx