Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Coela Bellatore]

Not unless I had a sex change! I know I'm good, but I'm not that good.

But the whole problem with S/J, even in season one, is that the way it was written, they disrupted and distorted what made SG1 great; the fabulous team interaction in order to facilitate the 'relationship' - which is what most of the posters in the thread object to (hence the name of the thread itself).

FF

It would have been interesting to see(misnomer) their post-sex dialogue until they overcame the awkwardness. As long as the relationship was done away with.

[Snotr]

FrostFox - thanks for the pictures of Jack and the others. Great examples!

Amanda will listen to the fans that will scream the most but I thought it was her who pretty much wanted to stop the ship? and thats why by season 5, they were backing on it now, all of sudden, they want it for the 3rd movie to satisfy the kiddies?

I, too think I've heard that Amanda didn't want the ship - that it was bad for the character development.

Thanks for honesty. It's just, I'm sorry but I can't get my head around the concept of disliking the whole movie based on *one scene*. And believe me I do understand where are you coming from, because what you guys think about J/S ship I think about D/V. Same thing. But I still watched Unending and would watch the next movie even if they were involved. *shrug*

... lots snipped...

And for the record: the canonical age difference between Jack and Sam is 11 years. Personally I don't see the problem. My grandfather is 10 years older than my grandma - please tell him he's too old for her..

As for the age difference - I would agree with you in that it doesn't matter. If people like each other then who cares about age. I personally have no problems with that whatsoever.

As for not watching a movie that has a ship you don't like...would you watch a movie with Sam/Daniel, Sam/Martouf/Lantash, Sam/Narim, Jack/Daniel, or Jack/Janet ship? I could watch any of those, even if I only ship one of them, but I wouldn't watch a movie with even a little bit of Sam/Jack in it. What I'm trying to say is; there are some ships which I dislike so much I can't watch a movie with it in. And there are some ships which I am indifferent to. To me, Sam/Jack partly destroyed both team-goodness and the wonderful Sam-character, which means I can't watch a movie with that in.

Maybe I'm getting senile, but have we ever, in 13 years, seen Jack smile at Sam? I don't mean a smirk, I mean a full, open smile? Like Sam smiles at Pete or Jack smiles at Sara or Daniel. Have they ever said 'I love you?' Have they had a meaningful conversation I have fast forwarded over?

We've seen the odd (and unwarranted) snog, perhaps Amanda is right in the 'animal attraction, let them have a night of rumpy pumpy and get it over with' (as long as we don't have to watch. Shudder)?

FF

*grins* yes, great idea. I actually think that is just what they need to get it out of their systems.

I think its too late for that. They should have done it back in Season 1 when Sam and Jack were still young and nubile. Even the though of imagining the thought of RDA naked now makes me want to .

I have no wish to see Jack naked, but that has nothing to do with his age - I am one of those few, weird people who don't find him attractive.

[Killdeer]

I do find these photos shippy. Is Jack happy in them? Of course not, but then again he isn't supposed to be. It's called angst.

Well, if that's angst, I gotta say, I've seen it done much better. RDA himself did better angst in episodes like Cold Lazarus, IMO at least. Looking at those pictures, my first thought is....why would Sam even want this guy? His face is just so expressionless. I mean, I know Jack isn't supposed to be the most communicative guy in the world, but you'd think, if he really cared all that much about Sam, he would at least make some sort of effort.

I'm not expressing it very well, but looking at those pictures, I'm not getting the picture of a man in love, angst or no angst. I'm getting the picture of a man just going through the motions.

As far as the movie goes, I wasn't planning on watching it anyway, but yeah, any kind of confirmation they were together would annoy me, because I don't want them together, I don't think they're good for each other at all, and I think shipping them was one of the worst decisions the writers ever made on this show.

Maybe I'm getting senile, but have we ever, in 13 years, seen Jack smile at Sam? I don't mean a smirk, I mean a full, open smile? Like Sam smiles at Pete or Jack smiles at Sara or Daniel. Have they ever said 'I love you?' Have they had a meaningful conversation I have fast forwarded over?

Excellent point. I've found it interesting that so many of the arguments made in this thread parallel the arguments made in the anti-Shep/Teyla thread (which I am also a frequent poster in). And this is one of the key ones - the Stargate writers consistently try to ship characters without building a believable relationship between the two to back it up. At least in that case, the writers abandoned the idea in the end - we should only have been so lucky with S/J.

[Callista]

The only romantic-type smile I can think of is at the end of Window of Opportunity. Of course in that one, Sam didn't know to what it referred and it also had oatmeal in it.
To be fair with this one, it looked more like a smile when he was moving than in just one screen capture.

I do think there were smiles in the first few seasons (I can't think of any in particular off the top of my head), but I always took those as him being proud of her as his second in command or being proud of her as a strong woman sticking up for herself or "sticking it to the man" as he so likes to do.

I'd have to rewatch 200 again to be sure, but he might have smiled at her when Vala mentioned a wedding....I know Sam gave him a "knowing smile" at that. Edit: maybe not.

It does, however appear that Bra'tac may have a thing for Daniel.

[Killdeer]

Edit: maybe not.

Yeah, that looks more like alarm.

*snickers at the Bra'tac pic*

[Callista]

To be fair, I'm just grabbing things from the screen-caps which are only every five or six seconds, right? That's plenty of time to completely miss a smile.

[Coela Bellatore]

It does, however appear that Bra'tac may have a thing for Daniel.

Yeah baby! Haha, that is awesome, you just started a brand new ship for me!

[Snotr]

The only romantic-type smile I can think of is at the end of Window of Opportunity. Of course in that one, Sam didn't know to what it referred and it also had oatmeal in it.
To be fair with this one, it looked more like a smile when he was moving than in just one screen capture.

I do think there were smiles in the first few seasons (I can't think of any in particular off the top of my head), but I always took those as him being proud of her as his second in command or being proud of her as a strong woman sticking up for herself or "sticking it to the man" as he so likes to do.

I'd have to rewatch 200 again to be sure, but he might have smiled at her when Vala mentioned a wedding....I know Sam gave him a "knowing smile" at that. Edit: maybe not.

It does, however appear that Bra'tac may have a thing for Daniel.

Wonderful!

[Callista]

OK, Here's a real one from New Order, part 2. And I like this one because I don't recall it being shippy....to me it's one of those Jack being proud of Sam's accomplishments as a soldier/co-worker smiles.

Plus, Walter seems to be very proud of her as well.

In general, I think LoneStar is right in that Jack is not real big on the smiling thing. Daniel also doesn't smile very much and it's pretty rare for Teal'c as well. Sam is really the only one of the four with a big, frequent smile. (Now if you want to include Jonas, Cam, and Vala, the smile count goes up exponentially!)

[Khentkawes]

It does, however appear that Bra'tac may have a thing for Daniel.

Yeah baby! Haha, that is awesome, you just started a brand new ship for me!

Nope. Sorry. The love dodecagon (*points to Snotr's sig*) can not handle one more person. Nope. Bra'tac will just have to content himself with unrequited feelings.

[Frostfox]

It would have been interesting to see(misnomer) their post-sex dialogue until they overcame the awkwardness. As long as the relationship was done away with.

There could have been a very interesting TV show about the stresses and pressures of being a female 2IC to a charismatic and handsome CO. But it wouldn’t have been a prime time S/F action/adventure about a team going through the Gate, or if it was, it would have had a much more mature attitude to relationships than any shown in SG1, very fond of the old gal but high concept drama she ‘aint.

FrostFox - thanks for the pictures of Jack and the others. Great examples!

I, too think I've heard that Amanda didn't want the ship - that it was bad for the character development.

Amanda is very astute. I think she feels that now the programme is finished, what harm can it do. And in some ways I agree with her; SG1 is over, closed canon, it didn’t, thank all the gods of common sense, end in a ‘shippy’ love fest. The films are a codicil, an added extra, if I don’t have an interest in them, I don’t need to buy them to complete my collection.

As for the age difference - I would agree with you in that it doesn't matter. If people like each other then who cares about age. I personally have no problems with that whatsoever.

I was less bothered by the age difference than how much Jack looks and acts like a contemporary of Jacob. They even have Jack saying he thinks of Jacob like a brother. Eew. That’s just… creepy.

As for not watching a movie that has a ship you don't like...would you watch a movie with Sam/Daniel, Sam/Martouf/Lantash, Sam/Narim, Jack/Daniel, or Jack/Janet ship? I could watch any of those, even if I only ship one of them, but I wouldn't watch a movie with even a little bit of Sam/Jack in it. What I'm trying to say is; there are some ships which I dislike so much I can't watch a movie with it in. And there are some ships which I am indifferent to. To me, Sam/Jack partly destroyed both team-goodness and the wonderful Sam-character, which means I can't watch a movie with that in.

I think I have become resigned to the dissipation of the team due to the bumbled attempts at making Sam and Jack into something they aren’t, but the destruction of one of the most interesting female characters in S/F still smarts. And it’s heading towards the final nail in the coffin, the dreaded ‘Confirmation’.

*grins* yes, great idea. I actually think that is just what they need to get it out of their systems.

I have no wish to see Jack naked, but that has nothing to do with his age - I am one of those few, weird people who don't find him attractive.

I can see he’s attractive, wouldn’t kick him out of bed for leaving crumbs, but I don’t get the Jack/RDA worship. I think its part of RDA’s charisma, but I seem to be immune too.
Partly, it’s because I find the characters more sexy than the actors (with the exception on Amanda with dark hair, I think she’s much more stunning than Sam ever was). I don’t find Michael anywhere near as attractive as Daniel or RDA as attractive as Jack.

Well, if that's angst, I gotta say, I've seen it done much better. RDA himself did better angst in episodes like Cold Lazarus, IMO at least. Looking at those pictures, my first thought is....why would Sam even want this guy? His face is just so expressionless. I mean, I know Jack isn't supposed to be the most communicative guy in the world, but you'd think, if he really cared all that much about Sam, he would at least make some sort of effort.

I'm not expressing it very well, but looking at those pictures, I'm not getting the picture of a man in love, angst or no angst. I'm getting the picture of a man just going through the motions.

As far as the movie goes, I wasn't planning on watching it anyway, but yeah, any kind of confirmation they were together would annoy me, because I don't want them together, I don't think they're good for each other at all, and I think shipping them was one of the worst decisions the writers ever made on this show.

I think part of the problem is that the relationship, as written and shown on the show, has two modes – High drama/angst and snogging and nothing of any note in between. Like two ends of a bell curve without all the subtle, loving stuff which happens between those extremes.
And how RDA and the directors chose to play it, there’s stoic and then there is plank of wood. And there’s poor, dear Amanda, throwing herself into it, like a moth chucking itself at a light fitting. And Jack stares at Sam with empty eyes and poker face, no animation at all, for all the world as though she’s speaking a language he doesn’t hear.

Excellent point. I've found it interesting that so many of the arguments made in this thread parallel the arguments made in the anti-Shep/Teyla thread (which I am also a frequent poster in). And this is one of the key ones - the Stargate writers consistently try to ship characters without building a believable relationship between the two to back it up. At least in that case, the writers abandoned the idea in the end - we should only have been so lucky with S/J.

The writes trundled it out when they needed a reaction from one of the players, then shoved it back in the draw for weeks or months at a time. Played it for melodrama, rather than to expand the plot and our knowledge and empathy for the characters.
Bit sad to note that they repeated it with Atlantis too, you would have thought they would have learnt their lesson.

The only romantic-type smile I can think of is at the end of Window of Opportunity. Of course in that one, Sam didn't know to what it referred and it also had oatmeal in it.
To be fair with this one, it looked more like a smile when he was moving than in just one screen capture.

Wasn’t that more of a creepy smirk (I really wouldn’t have wanted my boss looking at me like that when I had no idea he had been playing out his sexual fantasies without me being aware of what he had been doing)?

I do think there were smiles in the first few seasons (I can't think of any in particular off the top of my head), but I always took those as him being proud of her as his second in command or being proud of her as a strong woman sticking up for herself or "sticking it to the man" as he so likes to do.

I'd have to rewatch 200 again to be sure, but he might have smiled at her when Vala mentioned a wedding....I know Sam gave him a "knowing smile" at that. Edit: maybe not.

Choke, less like a smile it would be hard to find! He looks about as delighted at the idea of a marriage as the fans were! Even the script said that they didn’t want to torture the fans that badly.

It does, however appear that Bra'tac may have a thing for Daniel.

That was RDA’s fault, apparently, he was fooling about on set, no change there then! I didn’t like the shot they chose for Sam in that scene, she looked embarrassed for heaven’s sake, she’s lived with, fought with, bled and cried with these people for seven years, she can’t be embarrassed by seeing one of them naked!
Jack seemed happy enough to see him, if adjusting his shirt was any indication. RDA is a Bad Man.

OK, Here's a real one from New Order, part 2. And I like this one because I don't recall it being shippy....to me it's one of those Jack being proud of Sam's accomplishments as a soldier/co-worker smiles.

Plus, Walter seems to be very proud of her as well.

In general, I think LoneStar is right in that Jack is not real big on the smiling thing. Daniel also doesn't smile very much and it's pretty rare for Teal'c as well. Sam is really the only one of the four with a big, frequent smile. (Now if you want to include Jonas, Cam, and Vala, the smile count goes up exponentially!)

So, in 10 years we have a grand total one, maybe two smiles? On this a relationship is built? Laughable if it weren’t so sad and so detrimental to the characters.

FF

[flynn1959]

I thought that the picture in Atlantis was enough confirmation. I don't know anyone who keeps pictures of their CO's with them when they switch commands. That alone is a subtle as a kick in gonads. While I don't care if they have a relationship (sexually...gasp) an obvious and contrived scene for the shippers is just distasteful.

But she also had other pictures too, including a very nice one of Daniel -though God only knows how she got hold of that one as that whole sequence didn't exist in the 'real world'. Of course it would be quite easy for a woman like Sam to photo shop anything she wanted.

[Coela Bellatore]

But she also had other pictures too, including a very nice one of Daniel -though God only knows how she got hold of that one as that whole sequence didn't exist in the 'real world'. Of course it would be quite easy for a woman like Sam to photo shop anything she wanted.

I guess SG-1 is different but photos of your non-military friends is a bit less weird than photos of your commanding officer. The only way they could have made it as a sort of "she misses the team" is if they had a picture of the entire team. There really isn't any other excuse that makes sense other than bad writing if it wasn't meant to suggest they were romantically involved.

[Frostfox]

I guess SG-1 is different but photos of your non-military friends is a bit less weird than photos of your commanding officer. The only way they could have made it as a sort of "she misses the team" is if they had a picture of the entire team. There really isn't any other excuse that makes sense other than bad writing if it wasn't meant to suggest they were romantically involved.

I don't watch Atlantis, never have, so it completely passed me by. If fans hadn't mentioned it, I would never have known it was there.

Which works just fine for me.

FF

[flynn1959]

I guess SG-1 is different but photos of your non-military friends is a bit less weird than photos of your commanding officer. The only way they could have made it as a sort of "she misses the team" is if they had a picture of the entire team. There really isn't any other excuse that makes sense other than bad writing if it wasn't meant to suggest they were romantically involved.

Well, if the shippers see that picture as meaning that - then why are they still calling for the all singing, all dancing, all important confirmation? And if that picture wasn't good enough confirmation - even though according to the shippers it means that Jack and Sam are together - then what would be good enough for them/you?

The trouble is everything that the shippers point to as being evidence that they are so married/together/making babies etc changes depending on your point of view and the way each group feels about the characters, doesn't it?

In my own experience of the show I have never seen anything that could even remotely be described as romantic between S/J, nothing at all. I have seen team moments and moments when Jack has shown concern for Sam, just the same as he has for Daniel and Teal'c. And it is that version of Jack and Sam I prefer. Team mates, not mates.