Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

For all those complaining about being behind in the discussion - I missed almost half of the season!

By the end of this episode I became convinced that I’m not a Drey’ac fan. She doesn’t seem like a strong or loyal person. As much as she still has feelings for Teal’c, she essentially made a deal with Fro’tac, and then she reneged. Really, I’m surprised that Teal’c didn’t hold her to it, although maybe the Jaffa culture seems to tolerate or expect infidelity? I’m thinking of Teal’c and Ishta and that girl from Affinity.

It's nice to find someone else who noticed this The more I think about it the more convinced I am that infidelity isn't a big deal in Jaffa culture. As you notice Drey'auc first betrays Teal'c with Fro'tac and then Fro'tac with Teal'c. Teal'c himself betrayed Drey'auc with Shaun'oc and later Ishta with Krista but no one ever acted like it was a wrong thing to do so I assume it's a cultural thing.

Anyway, as I'm way too behind to discuss past episodes, I'll respond to just 3 things:

1) VSS' question about children;

I'm pretty sure we already disscussed this (maybe while discussing Singularity? I don't remember exactly) but I don't mind repeating myself. I'm definitely against the idea. There's the age factor, the career factor, their previous experiences - for the life of me I can't see Jack extatic at the prospect of becoming a father again - and the danger factor - I guess a child whose parents have respectively an Ancient gene and Naquadah in the blood would definitely become an interest of some shady organisations and Sam and Jack must know that. I can't see them endangering their child like this. So no.

And a little pet peeve of mine, that was mentioned somewhere along the way: the canonical age difference between Jack and Sam is 11 years (Jack was born in 1957, Sam in 1968). I'm so sick and tired of people claiming Jack could be Sam's father, happily ignoring spoken canon in favour of prop canon just to "prove" they are right..

2) Jack's past in Gamekeeper

I think this action was to show us something different than Charlie's death, which is a recurring theme throughout the series anyway (it's also explored in the Devil You Know, Window Of Opportunity, Unnatural Selection and probably a few others I forgot). Apart from Charlie we don't know that much about Jack's past - actually, when you really think about it, his is the least explored history. All we got was Charlie, botched mission with Burke from Evolution and mentions in passing of Jack's grandfather, parachuting accident and being in prison. So I'm glad that Gamekeeper at least showed us what kind of military operations Jack was involved in in the past.

3) humour of "calm up" in Thor's Chariot

I can't speak for native speakers, but for someone for whom English is a second, taught language it's a very easy mistake to make. So I find it very funny, because it's realistic

I have a question though: in the series Teal'c is pretty much bilingual: he speaks in Goa'uld and English, but Goa'uld seems to be his first language (he curses in Goa'uld, uses it in distress etc). So where do you think he learned English? And what for?

[gater62]

3) humour of "calm up" I have a question though: in the series Teal'c is pretty much bilingual: he speaks in Goa'uld and English, but Goa'uld seems to be his first language (he curses in Goa'uld, uses it in distress etc). So where do you think he learned English? And what for?

I think I read somewhere that travel through the gate allows the travellers to be able to understand and speak the languages spoken on other planets. I may have even read "nanites", but I can't be certain. For Teal'c then it would work the same-as he travelled through the gate, he can understand and speak English. Let's face it-if we had to wait for the travellers to learn a new language every show, we'd never get anywhere!

[Aveo_amacus]

1) VSS' question about children;

I'm pretty sure we already disscussed this (maybe while discussing Singularity? I don't remember exactly) but I don't mind repeating myself. I'm definitely against the idea. There's the age factor, the career factor, their previous experiences - for the life of me I can't see Jack extatic at the prospect of becoming a father again - and the danger factor - I guess a child whose parents have respectively an Ancient gene and Naquadah in the blood would definitely become an interest of some shady organisations and Sam and Jack must know that. I can't see them endangering their child like this. So no.

And a little pet peeve of mine, that was mentioned somewhere along the way: the canonical age difference between Jack and Sam is 11 years (Jack was born in 1957, Sam in 1968). I'm so sick and tired of people claiming Jack could be Sam's father, happily ignoring spoken canon in favour of prop canon just to "prove" they are right..

Hey Col aga!
Can I ask where you got that year from? I because the screen cap I have :

Spoiler:

(Fragile Balance)

shows it as 1951. But then I guess this could be just a prop guy making it up as Carter's shows 28th Dec 1968 (Entity) when the writers said it was May. I know in BC he says he's 40 years old, but I always kinda assumed that he was using the years as the important factor and really meant "I'm in my 40s) but again I could be wrong!

I have to say the ancient gene as a problem for having kids is a pet peeve of mine! Jack, Sheppard, Beckett etc all got the gene naturally so I don't think the gene by itself would have been an object of interest for the NID. That said it could be if combined with the naquadah protein marker...

[leiasky]

And a little pet peeve of mine, that was mentioned somewhere along the way: the canonical age difference between Jack and Sam is 11 years (Jack was born in 1957, Sam in 1968). I'm so sick and tired of people claiming Jack could be Sam's father, happily ignoring spoken canon in favour of prop canon just to "prove" they are right..

Oh, I'm so glad you posted this and I'm glad to know there's at least one other person who thinks the same as I do. I take dialogue over a prop any day and believe their age difference is only 11 years. When there is only a prop to indicate age, well, sure, take that as canon. But Jack said he was 40 in Brief Candle, not in his 40's, and that's canon to me.

[leiasky]

I have to say the ancient gene as a problem for having kids is a pet peeve of mine! Jack, Sheppard, Beckett etc all got the gene naturally so I don't think the gene by itself would have been an object of interest for the NID. That said it could be if combined with the naquadah protein marker...

I've seen a multitude of stories that deal with Sam's protein marker making it very difficult for her to have children, but, is this supported anywhere in the show or is it just made up by the fans?

I'd love to see some stories that show that Sam having the protein marker made it quite easy to have children. Do we even know if that protein marker is passed on to children?

The ancient gene didn't negatively affect Jack's ability to procreate since he had Charlie. So I don't buy that as an excuse not to have a baby.

I could see that a child with both the ancient gene and the protein marker might be a target for various nefarious factions of the government, but it also makes for damn good drama if written well

[hedwig]

I've seen a multitude of stories that deal with Sam's protein marker making it very difficult for her to have children, but, is this supported anywhere in the show or is it just made up by the fans?

I'd love to see some stories that show that Sam having the protein marker made it quite easy to have children. Do we even know if that protein marker is passed on to children?

The ancient gene didn't negatively affect Jack's ability to procreate since he had Charlie. So I don't buy that as an excuse not to have a baby.

I could see that a child with both the ancient gene and the protein marker might be a target for various nefarious factions of the government, but it also makes for damn good drama if written well

I'm pretty sure the only times the protein marker was mentioned was to say that it changed Sam's body chemistry, but didn't specify how. There were also times that apparently due to the protein marker, Sam had to be given extra heavy doses of sedatives (as in "Foothold" and "Desperate Measures") and a couple of other episodes, since the marker apparently made her a bit more resistant to drugs. But nothing was ever said (if I remember right) that it would affect whether she could or could not have children or how difficult a pregnancy might be.

I think the protein marker thing is just a convenient plot device to be used in fanfiction for whatever the author wants to have happen.

[jasminaGo]

I've seen a multitude of stories that deal with Sam's protein marker making it very difficult for her to have children, but, is this supported anywhere in the show or is it just made up by the fans?

I'd love to see some stories that show that Sam having the protein marker made it quite easy to have children. Do we even know if that protein marker is passed on to children?

It's all pure fanon. I've only read one story (sorry I don't remember the name or the author) were Sam and Jack have few kids, and Jack makes a joke at the end that thanks to Jolinar the births all go without problem and she throws 'em out like bullets or something like that.

I think that the 'no-baby' scenario is very popular cause it brings angst to the story. Jack wants kids, but Sam can't have any (although at the end by some miracle she always has them), and like all things fanon, one person writes it, another one reads it, likes it and later includes it in their own stories. And so it goes, and it's much easier to re-use someone's else idea (especially if it has been well received by the readers), then coming up with something new and different, I would assume, especially for new or younger writers.

Personally I don't have a big problem with that scenario (as long as the story is written well), cause when it comes to canon we haven't seen anything that can prove or disprove that theory, so it can go either way. It can be true or false depending on your point of view.

The ancient gene didn't negatively affect Jack's ability to procreate since he had Charlie. So I don't buy that as an excuse not to have a baby.

I could see that a child with both the ancient gene and the protein marker might be a target for various nefarious factions of the government, but it also makes for damn good drama if written well

I think it was janissima who did that very well in A Father's Determination.

[Petra]

I think I read somewhere that travel through the gate allows the travellers to be able to understand and speak the languages spoken on other planets. I may have even read "nanites", but I can't be certain. For Teal'c then it would work the same-as he travelled through the gate, he can understand and speak English. Let's face it-if we had to wait for the travellers to learn a new language every show, we'd never get anywhere!

Oh, I realise that everybody speaks English for practical purposes; as you said learning a new language in every episode would kill the show instantly. I don't have a problem with suspending my disbelief on this one but still, some explanation would be nice. I think translating abilities of the wormhole was mentioned as a joke , as it is flatly contradicted in the show. In the early episodes the team deals with different languages, Daniel often translates/learns new languages. If the wormhole allowed everyone to understand other languages, Daniel wouldn't have to learn Unas language for example.
Nanites also don't work, because who has them in their blood? And if somebody has, how did they get them in the first place?

Hey Col aga!
Can I ask where you got that year from? I because the screen cap I have :

Spoiler:

(Fragile Balance)

shows it as 1951. But then I guess this could be just a prop guy making it up as Carter's shows 28th Dec 1968 (Entity) when the writers said it was May. I know in BC he says he's 40 years old, but I always kinda assumed that he was using the years as the important factor and really meant "I'm in my 40s) but again I could be wrong!

Oh, I'm so glad you posted this and I'm glad to know there's at least one other person who thinks the same as I do. I take dialogue over a prop any day and believe their age difference is only 11 years. When there is only a prop to indicate age, well, sure, take that as canon. But Jack said he was 40 in Brief Candle, not in his 40's, and that's canon to me.

Exactly what leiasky said. I use 1957 as Jack's year of birth because of what he said in Brief Candle. I know people think he meant "in his 40s" but if that was the case I believe he would have said so. Jack's a very concrete, down to earth guy and he's always very precise with his words. I don't know any other character on tv who would use "-ish" so much! But he said "I'm forty", not "I'm fortish" and not "I'm in my forties" which means that whether we like it or not he was 40 in the first season. It's canon, you can't change that. Moreover it's spoken canon, which is always more important that the prop canon, which often is made up or mistaken (e.g In "The Return" in SGA Jack had only 1 star on his uniform even though we all know he was a Major General at the time)
Here's a link to back me up on this:

http://www.stargatehandbook.org/sg1/

go to "SG-1 page: Jack: life: born"

My little theory on why Fragile Balance shows us a different date:

Spoiler:

Don't take this the wrong way, because I absolutely love RDA and think he's the sexiest guy in the world But in season 1 he didn't look his age. I would never think he's over 40 in 1997. So saying Jack was 40 was totally believable. When we got to season 7 though he started to show his real age so the props might have been changed to reflect this. It doesn't however change what was said in Brief Candle. Until someone on the show says otherwise, spoken canon from Brief Candle stands.

leiasky, I'm really happy I'm not the only one too

[leiasky]

I think it was janissima who did that very well in A Father's Determination.

Yes, I remember reading that one and liking at a lot. I'll have to go back and re-read one of these days.

[Toomi]

Sorry it's so late. We had inventory last night and I've been at work all day

Secrets


Banner by josiane

Fave Quote: Jack: I can navigate my way across the galaxy but I get lost everytime I come to Washington.

Jack: It's O'Neill, with 2 LL's. There's another Colonel O'Neil with only one L and he's got no sense of humour at all.


Fave Scene: Hmmmm.... not entirely sure. I think it's where Jacob tells Sam about his cancer as it's a great Sam bit, and AT really did an awesome job with this scene.

It's been a year since Daniel told the people of Abydos he would be back. In one year they were to unbury the Stargate and wait for him to return. (Was it the one year anniversary of when he said that? Even close when it aired?) Hammond says that Sam and Jack have to go to Washington, so it'll only be him. Teal'c offers to go too.

Kasuf leads Daniel into a tent where a pregnant Sha're is. She tells him that the Goa'uld sleeps because she is pregnant. She tells him that the father, Apophis, wants the child to become his new host. Daniel is very shaken by all this information. I can't imagine being in his position, finding the one you love to find out she's pregnant by your enemy and will return to being an enemy when a child is born.

Jack and Sam look very dashing in their dress blues and Jack goes to get both of them a drink. Hammond beckons Sam over, when the man he's talking to turns. It's Sam's father.

Sha're reveals she remembers Teal'c. Teal'c then informs Daniel that even though the Goa'uld in Sha're is 'sleeping' she still shares it's memories. He wants to take Sha're back to Earth to access the genetic memory of the Goa'uld. Daniel is upset about the idea, saying that he doesn't care if the knowledge Sha're carries saves his world, he doesn't want to put her through that.

Hammond tells Sam that he invited Jacob as a treat for her. Jack joins the group clearly thrilled at the opportunity to meet Sam's Dad. (at least he seems very very thrilled to me!) He quickly excueses himself as does Hammond. Jacob begins talking to Sam about joining NASA, about actually going into space someday.

Jacob and Sam continue to talk (more Jacob trying to tell Sam what he's done to get her a shoo in for NASA) until Sam asks him to leave it be. Jacob asks that she please just go talk to this guy, for him. Sam remarks that it's always about him.

This is our first introduction to Jacob. Has Sam at anypoint by this time in the series mentionned her father? We find out later some of their estranged relationship but what do we know at this point? Trying to keep a blank mind, it feels like Sam is frustrated that her father is trying to meddle in her life and she can't tell him she's already travelling space.

A man catches up to Jack in the bar, and harasses him about the Stargate. Jack denies it and comes up with a cover when the man replays a message he recorded with Jack and Sam earlier. Jack lets Hammond know about their leak.

Daniel and Teal'c convince Sha're to head back to Earth with them and as they're about to leave, a ship arrives and Sha're goes into labour.

Back on Earth, Hammond, Sam and Jack meet and discuss who their leak could be. Sam and Hammond agree that it isn't anyone at the SGC as they know how important their work is. I can't imagine a base load of people and no one breathing a word or letting something slip after a year. But where I work nothing is kept quite for longer than a minute

Jack goes to meet the reporter to find out what he knows. As the reporter goes to leave he gets hit by a car. Jack goes to help him and orders people to go call 911. When the reporter accuses Jack of 'doing this' Jack moves the man's head and he dies. Jack pulls away his hands to reveal blood. Did Jack kill this man by moving his neck??????? I always thought so, and still think so.

Back in Washington, Sam tells Jacob that the ceremony will now happen back at their base. Jacob lets Sam know he has cancer and he wants to stick around long enough to see Sam go into space. I can't imagine how Sam feels. Her father telling her he's dying and wants to see his daughter live her dream of going into space, and she can't tell him she really is living her dream.

As Sha're's baby is born, her eyes flash, and Daniel announces it's a boy. Ammunet demands to have the child and when Daniel backs up a Jaffa in armour arrives to take the child. Daniel moves towards the Jaffa as he shoots Sha're. Teal'c removes the head gear and they leave Ammunet. They give the child to Kasuf and tell him to get somewhere safe.

Back at the SGC Hammond awards medals to Jack and Sam in the briefing room. When Sam leaves, Hammond tells Jack it was an accident. Jack looks sad/haunted.

Where did Daniel get his SGC clothes???? He arrived in the clothes he used to wear in Abydos, then shows up in his SGC stuff..... Anyway, he's given the child to Kasuf and is now being lead to the other Goa'uld with Teal'c as the Jaffa. The Stargate activates and SG-1 come through. Teal'c zats two of the Jaffa guard, and kills one in the opening vortex. Jack and Sam take cover and I believe this is where we see the third zat blast for the first time? Jack throws his knife at the Goa'uld and it goes through the personal shield into his hand.

Aphophis shows up and Ammunet greets him. She tells him that the child was taken by the enemy Goa'uld. Ammunet/Sha're sees Daniel hiding but doesn't tell Apophis that they're there as Teal'c points out later, as if to give Daniel hope that something of the host does survive, and is still fighting inside.

Sam and Jack implications: Well, we get the first, and very important meeting of the father.... Jack seems quite thrilled to be meeting Sam's father and leaves them quickly so they can catch up. I wonder if he wonders about Sam's family and why she doesn't talk about them. As team leader I would have assumed he'd know as much about Sam as he could, including the fact that her father is a General in the Airforce. Other than a few nice smiles they share, I'm not sure there's much for the ship. This is a good ep for Sam as we do start to see some of her background emerge and hear forshadowing for the rest of the series.

Tidbits: I believe that the actress playing Sha're was really pregnant at the time, with MS's child. It was his first child and when she had to act that she was giving birth the child started kicking up a storm and MS was worried she really would go into labour.

[Kel]

I'm pretty sure the only times the protein marker was mentioned was to say that it changed Sam's body chemistry, but didn't specify how. There were also times that apparently due to the protein marker, Sam had to be given extra heavy doses of sedatives (as in "Foothold" and "Desperate Measures") and a couple of other episodes, since the marker apparently made her a bit more resistant to drugs. But nothing was ever said (if I remember right) that it would affect whether she could or could not have children or how difficult a pregnancy might be.

I think the protein marker thing is just a convenient plot device to be used in fanfiction for whatever the author wants to have happen.

Yes, I agree, the protein marker and the gene are things which make Sam and Jacks bodies maybe special in particular meaning. But it is not connected with children (I hope)

[leiasky]

Tidbits: I believe that the actress playing Sha're was really pregnant at the time, with MS's child. It was his first child and when she had to act that she was giving birth the child started kicking up a storm and MS was worried she really would go into labour.[/COLOR]

Really? I thought he only had kids with the woman who played Carolyn Lam?

I love the scene when Jack meets Jacob "Good to meet you, sir. I've heard nothing about you." Jack and Sam share some nice looks in that scene but I wouldn't describe them as overly shippy. Jacob might have gotten a certain vibe, though, as I assume he knows she has a weakness for the lunatic fringe. And if he didn't know Jack's history, I bet, as an overprotective high ranking air force officer, he tried to find out.

This episode is a favorite of mine.

[josiane]

Jack and Sam look very dashing in their dress blues and Jack goes to get both of them a drink. Hammond beckons Sam over, when the man he's talking to turns. It's Sam's father.

Someone (I can't remember who, one of our resident AF experts, possibly Jenn?) always points out that technically Sam should have gone to get the drinks, as the junior officer, and that Jack doing so was breaking protocol in favour of chivalry. Which is interesting from a ship perspective, that he's treating Sam like a woman here rather than his 2IC.

Hammond tells Sam that he invited Jacob as a treat for her. Jack joins the group clearly thrilled at the opportunity to meet Sam's Dad. (at least he seems very very thrilled to me!) He quickly excueses himself as does Hammond. Jacob begins talking to Sam about joining NASA, about actually going into space someday.

Jacob and Sam continue to talk (more Jacob trying to tell Sam what he's done to get her a shoo in for NASA) until Sam asks him to leave it be. Jacob asks that she please just go talk to this guy, for him. Sam remarks that it's always about him.

This is our first introduction to Jacob. Has Sam at anypoint by this time in the series mentionned her father? We find out later some of their estranged relationship but what do we know at this point? Trying to keep a blank mind, it feels like Sam is frustrated that her father is trying to meddle in her life and she can't tell him she's already travelling space.

We definitely don't hear anything about Jacob until this point, which if nothing else implies that Sam has always been very determined to be successful in her career in spite of her father. It fits very well with her character, IMO, that she would not want people to know her Dad is a high-ranking General - I'd have thought it certainly contributes to that chip she has on her shoulder right at the start with her need and desire to prove herself as a good officer in her own right, regardless of gender or her intellectual abilities or her family background. Jack's slightly pointed 'I've heard nothing about you' seems a bit like a gentle tease of Sam in this respect to me.

Jack goes to meet the reporter to find out what he knows. As the reporter goes to leave he gets hit by a car. Jack goes to help him and orders people to go call 911. When the reporter accuses Jack of 'doing this' Jack moves the man's head and he dies. Jack pulls away his hands to reveal blood. Did Jack kill this man by moving his neck??????? I always thought so, and still think so.

Interesting. That's never occurred to me, I have to say. I always thought thought that the blood on his hand is intended to be symbolic, to a certain extent, going along with the doubt Jack clearly displays at the end when Hammond assures him it wasn't the SGC - in that it's probably an image that will haunt him and make him wonder about the extent of his guilt in this. And seeing as this is starting to link into the idea of rogue elements using the Stargate for their own ends I think it is actually supposed to be hinty, rather than certain.

Where did Daniel get his SGC clothes???? He arrived in the clothes he used to wear in Abydos, then shows up in his SGC stuff..... Anyway, he's given the child to Kasuf and is now being lead to the other Goa'uld with Teal'c as the Jaffa. The Stargate activates and SG-1 come through. Teal'c zats two of the Jaffa guard, and kills one in the opening vortex. Jack and Sam take cover and I believe this is where we see the third zat blast for the first time? Jack throws his knife at the Goa'uld and it goes through the personal shield into his hand.

The thing I most love about this scene is the reference back to The Nox and what it says about how Sam and Jack's relationship has developed in that time. Sam's line about the deflective capabilities and kinetic energy is identical in both episodes (in The Nox it's when Jack is making bows and arrows to get through Apophis's shield), but Jack's reaction is markedly different. In The Nox he just agrees with her as if 'yes of course', but here, just a season later, he throws her that 'yeah whatever you say, don't ask me' look. To me this shows how Jack has now developed his habit of playing dumb in response to her technobabble, and the fact it wasn't there right from the start shows how much of an act it is. He plays the dumb card because it's a way of teasing her, and she lets him get away with it because she likes to be teased. Just think of how she is not surprised at Jack's astronomical knowledge in Singularity and yet still is happy to patiently explain wormholes to him using an apple in A Matter of Time and, even later on, to let him get away with pretending he didn't realise you can't see nebulae during the day at the start of Forsaken.

Sam and Jack implications: Well, we get the first, and very important meeting of the father.... Jack seems quite thrilled to be meeting Sam's father and leaves them quickly so they can catch up. I wonder if he wonders about Sam's family and why she doesn't talk about them. As team leader I would have assumed he'd know as much about Sam as he could, including the fact that her father is a General in the Airforce. Other than a few nice smiles they share, I'm not sure there's much for the ship. This is a good ep for Sam as we do start to see some of her background emerge and hear forshadowing for the rest of the series.

I think the way Jack is with Jacob (and Sam) in that scene is very interesting from a ship perspective. There's quite a teasing tone to his voice and lots of flirty/knowing looks flying around between all three of them. I think Jacob and Jack are both sizing each other up, and Sam is not entirely comfortable having them there together like that, which to me all hints at various levels of subtext going on on all sorts of levels - their cover stories, Jacob wondering about Jack both as Sam's CO and personally, Jack wondering about Sam's family background and what Jacob will be thinking of him, Sam wondering just what both of these men are making of each other and whether there's a potential conflict brewing... all pretty shippy IMO Jenn made a great gif of this scene which I reckon sums it all up rather well

Tidbits: I believe that the actress playing Sha're was really pregnant at the time, with MS's child. It was his first child and when she had to act that she was giving birth the child started kicking up a storm and MS was worried she really would go into labour.[/COLOR]

Yep, that's definitely true, I heard that too

Really? I thought he only had kids with the woman who played Carolyn Lam?

I love the scene when Jack meets Jacob "Good to meet you, sir. I've heard nothing about you." Jack and Sam share some nice looks in that scene but I wouldn't describe them as overly shippy. Jacob might have gotten a certain vibe, though, as I assume he knows she has a weakness for the lunatic fringe. And if he didn't know Jack's history, I bet, as an overprotective high ranking air force officer, he tried to find out.

This episode is a favorite of mine.

*nods* I agree about the potential for vibe there, and also that Jacob almost certainly did some digging about Jack afterwards, even if only to make sure that Sam was going to be safe with him, as it were

[VSS]

Kasuf leads Daniel into a tent where a pregnant Sha're is. She tells him that the Goa'uld sleeps because she is pregnant. She tells him that the father, Apophis, wants the child to become his new host. Daniel is very shaken by all this information. I can't imagine being in his position, finding the one you love to find out she's pregnant by your enemy and will return to being an enemy when a child is born.

Yes, I have to say that this episode was very rough for Daniel and I think MS acting was terrific. Also, considering the preceding episode, Family I wonder if Teal'c's extremely protective reaction has to do with how things worked out there. Not a great couple of weeks for the romantic life of a couple of SG-1's members, anyway. But I think it also brings Teal'c full circle in trying to undo the damage he did to Sha're, so it's a big episode for him, too.

Sam remarks that it's always about him.

That didn't sit well with me. Of course, we're not privy to everything that's happened in the past, but he really did think he was trying to help and it's natural that it would make him happy. I thought she was being a bit mean there.

Jack goes to meet the reporter to find out what he knows. As the reporter goes to leave he gets hit by a car. Jack goes to help him and orders people to go call 911. When the reporter accuses Jack of 'doing this' Jack moves the man's head and he dies. Jack pulls away his hands to reveal blood. Did Jack kill this man by moving his neck??????? I always thought so, and still think so.

I thought Jack should have known better than to move the mans's neck, but I don't think he did it deliberately. Do you? That would be very unlike Jack. He knows it's the man's perfect right to learn about the program, he even says so.

Someone (I can't remember who, one of our resident AF experts, possibly Jenn?) always points out that technically Sam should have gone to get the drinks, as the junior officer, and that Jack doing so was breaking protocol in favour of chivalry. Which is interesting from a ship perspective, that he's treating Sam like a woman here rather than his 2IC.

I didn't even know anything about that, but I always had the feeling it wasn't quite up to protocol. At the very least, they should have gotten their own drinks.

Jack's slightly pointed 'I've heard nothing about you' seems a bit like a gentle tease of Sam in this respect to me.

I agree with you about that being a a little bit of a dig in that regard, because I'm not sure how her family ties would ever show up in her records, unless Jack himself made the connection. At any rate, I thought that wasn't exactly a polite thing to say.

It is kind of a shippy thing, really, because why would Jack want to know, and why does he think she'd tell him? Although, considering how secretive he's been with his personal life, that's the pot calling the kettle black, IMHO.

I think Jacob and Jack are both sizing each other up, and Sam is not entirely comfortable having them there together like that, which to me all hints at various levels of subtext going on on all sorts of levels - their cover stories, Jacob wondering about Jack both as Sam's CO and personally, Jack wondering about Sam's family background and what Jacob will be thinking of him, Sam wondering just what both of these men are making of each other and whether there's a potential conflict brewing... all pretty shippy IMO

Yes, that was a pretty busy scene. In fact, I need to go back and watch it again. But it seemed like each one of them wanted to see what the other was made of and it seemed to have to do with Sam, whether it was shippy I'm not 100% certain.

Coela Bellatore once mentioned a rather colorful way to describe that knd of scene, though. That's what I think of when I see it.

*nods* I agree about the potential for vibe there, and also that Jacob almost certainly did some digging about Jack afterwards, even if only to make sure that Sam was going to be safe with him, as it were

Oh, I'm sure he did some digging beforehand. Jack may not have known about Jacob, but I'm sure Jacob knew all about Jack. It's his privilege.

[Nynaeve506]

Apparently I knew nothing about this thread so I'm going to repost my thoughts here:

So, I'm working on my fic and I wanted to make off-handedly about Jack, but I have to research every last little detail so I looked up Jack's profile... and of course they say nothing about things like when he went to college, when he achieved his Masters (as an officer he would have been required to hold a masters to move up in rank).

Judging from the ribbons listed, I'm piecing together my own personal made-up biography of Jack...

Born 1952. He has Vietnam ribbons, so he was probably drafted and enlisted in 1970. After returning from Vietnam (say 1973-74?), he probably took night classes and got his college degree and thus was commissioned as an officer.

I was trying to decide what he would major in. Poli sci seemed like a good choice (with a Masters either in Poli sci or public administration) since he was covert ops doing a lot of overseas work.

This then led me thinking about Sam - she obviously got her undergrad at the Academy. Her graduate work would have had to have been done elsewhere - UC Berkeley is a great school for astrophysics....

Any thoughts?

-- I know someone was pointing out that 1957 would have been pulled from "Brief Candle", my problem is that would have made him too old for Vietnam and he has several Vietnam ribbons, so for purposes of my story, I'm going to stick with 1952.

Sorry if this has been discussed, I just discovered this place