Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[yessika]

I am finally delurking...

Josiane, your review just blew me away!!! If only I could formulate my shippy thoughts that way *sigh*

I must say I loved every second of this episode. Yes, all of it. You name it, I liked it

I originally thought that the forceshield scene was a realization of Sam and Jack feelings for each other, but know I think it might be a realization of the consequences of their feelings. I have to rewatch to pass judgement on that

Aveo Teal'c knew *nods*

I don't know about Daniel, I like to think he plays dumb and he actually knows Sam and Jack's feelings

[Rachel500]

I actually love D&C as an episode and as a story.

I just think they try and cram a lot in within the bounds of an hour - and just never deal with the fallout.

My analysis of D&C...

Firstly, although we accept it as normal now, this was the first time Stargate really attempted to create a link between sequential episodes that were not formally part of the same story, a sequel to a previous episode or related to the overall story arc (defeating the Goa'uld). Upgrades, Crossroads and D&C still work as stand alone stories but linked together they form a loose trilogy (the loose arc concerning Earth's relationship with the Tok'ra). Even WOO picks up on the Sam/Jack arc to form a kind of fluffy epilogue in regards to the kiss.

TV has changed so much in the last ten/twelve years that we forget that this was a big step forward for a show that lived and breathed the "adventure of the week" format with the reset button pressed every time.

I remember being absolutely blown away by the reuse of the "Upgrades" mission to create the za'tarc result for Sam and Jack; and absolutely blown away as the revelation of what else happened between them at the forceshield. The reveal is just incredible.

I also think that it's easy in hindsight not to realise just how HUGE a moment this was for the show when the couple's feelings are actually brought into the open. They'd clearly been playing with the UST for a while; creating the dynamic and the will-they/won't-they scenario but to handle it so openly was again very unusual in TV terms back then.

And killing off Martouf was a major shock. While I never warmed to the character, that they would kill of a recurring in such a way - someone who the audience had invested in getting to know - was again very unusual.

All these things have kind of turned into TV (and Stargate) norms but they were surprising when the show aired.

Other things I just want to mention:
1) The peek into another SG team is just so cool. They kind of repeat this again in Heroes with DIxon's team on a bigger level but I just loved seeing another SG team in action. Obviously SG1 is the focus of the show but it just widens the lens to kind of provide context and believability that our team doesn't just exist in a bubble.
2) The main story isn't actually about Sam and Jack (I know we tend to give it emphasis) but about the relationship between the Tok'ra and Earth. The treaty presumably is to fix the damage done in Upgrades and Crossroads, and yet there is this threat. I buy the za'tarc thing suddenly cropping up because it's been well set up that the Tok'ra aren't telling them anything. The threat of the za'tarc is about the possible threat of dividing Earth and the Tok'ra as allies, enabling the Goa'uld to conquer both. The plothole here is given the Tok'ra know about the za'tarcs it eliminates the possibility of an Earth assassin killing Per'sus, and the one side blaming the other. So, I agree that the za'tarc business itself and the testing of personnel is contrived to force the Sam/Jack revelation.

Sam and Jack

The set-up of D&C is very interesting in that for the most part there is a lot of misdirection going on so we have Freya approaching Jack romantically, Martouf approaching Sam romantically. The possibility of 'other' is there.

I love the scene when Jack goes to see Sam and tells her he's a za'tarc too. And when she questions whether he's worried that the machine is right. There's just this brief pause between them because if they are za'tarcs, they must wonder what of that moment at the forceshield actually happened - whether it could be a reconstructed memory...

For me, I don't think either of them have buried it so deep that they don't remember it. I think they just don't initially see the need to explain their deeper feelings about the incident in terms of the machine. It's a personal moment between them when they felt feelings that they're used to not discussing in public and sharing. For them, the moment had no relevance to the mission or the semantics of what happened: Sam got trapped, Jack tried to help her escape. They don't connect that omitting the more personal reasons about the why will cause the machine to think they're lying. From their perspective, they've told the truth about what happened so the machine should accept it.

I love that moment in the corridor where they exchange that same look that helps Sam connect the why the za'tarc machine thinks they're lying - because they have omitted something personal that happened, they just didn't realise the omission was a lie.

Although, I too think they recognised they had mutual feelings offworld between Nemesis and Small Victories, for me the moment at the forceshield is still that "OMG we love each other" moment. And while I think Jack knew he loved her, I do think Jack is shocked about the extent to which he loves her. There is just that heartbreaking sense of realisation. Sam, for me, at the forceshield isn't so much 'I was hoping you would never know' as she is 'I can't bear that you're not going to leave me and you're going to die because of that', whereas Jack is 'I can't bear that you're going to die.'

And I think I've babbled enough for the time being...

[JenniferJF]

Excellent analysis, Josi. Some things I'd like to add to or comment on:

However, afterwards, they both seem to do what they always do, which is compartmentalise and pretend it never happened. It takes something of the magnitude of possibly being za'tarcs (and even then, actually, it's the magnitude of Jack possibly dying) to get them to admit to it. However I think it's even more than that - it takes something of this magnitude to get them to even admit it to themselves, let alone to each other and to Anise's machine. The description of what the machine actually does seems to me to be the key here - it reads the subconscious and compares it to the conscious, indicating that Sam and Jack's memories of the moment at the forceshield, and the significance of it, has been buried so deep that even they don't really remember it. This is also borne out by the way that the realisation only comes to Sam about what it means when the sedative starts to take effect, and she flashes back to seeing Jack walking away from her, reminding her of the forceshield moment.

I love that moment when Sam sees Jack walking away, which I think she sort of dwells on and mulls over until the full implication of that comes to her while she's being sedated. Which, as you say, doesn't really strike her until that moment lying there in front of Janet.

Considering I am of the opinion that they both knew that the feelings existed and were mutual from their period off-world between Nemesis and Small Victories, I think what we see at the forceshield is the crashing realisation that it is a problem, and that they were naive to think that it was just harmless fluffy flirting.

I agree with you on this. There is, imho, too much horror in their expressions - especially Jack's - for it to 'merely' be realization that the feelings are reciprocated. Plus, frankly, given their expressions in Small Victories they'd have to be even worse at this than I think they possibly could be for them not to have some idea...

And has been said, I think Jack's horror in that moment - not his fury and desperation of the earlier one when he is trying to free Sam and can't but the calmer one in which he makes the decision to stand there and die - is because, as he says in WoO, that he can't bear 'going through that again'... can't stand to lose someone he loves and live through the grief of that. So when he says, "I'd rather die myself than lose Carter" it means literally that. Because he's not saying he'd rather die than let her die - that he'd give his life to save hers, which is the typical romantic idea. He's saying that, if she's going to die, he'd rather die then live without her. Which is, IMHO, far more tragic and is, in fact, descriptive of his inner demons more than of his love for her.

It also sets him up for Entity when it is made even more abundantly clear - IMHO - that his loving her is dangerous... not simply to her or because of the regs, but because it sets him up for pain and loss which he is not prepared to handle again. Or, in other words, while he functions, the wound left by Charlie's death is, in fact, still not healed.

And while you discuss their eye contact and the how grudgingly they admit everything, what really strikes me about the scene is that Jack stumbles and falters a bit during his admission, and it is at that point when he makes eye-contact with Sam and maintains that contact through the rest of his confession. There may be others in that room, but for the space of those minutes, it's just the two of them - he's talking directly to her, and I really get the impression it's her strength he's drawing on to allow him to go through with it.

Tied to that is the impression I get from Sam while Jack's making his confession. Because while there's discomfort and resignation there in her eyes, and almost a sort of grief for Jack that he's being forced to admit these feelings which he views, I think, as a sort of failure and weakness on his part, there's also - for just one moment - a look of joy. For that one beat, her features soften and she looks, IMHO, like any woman being told by the man she loves that he loves her, too.

It is interesting that it is Sam who is the one who takes the lead in this episode, especially considering our recent discussion over on the appreciation thread about this. But again it turns out to be very much in line with what will happen in the future - Sam is always the one to bring the subject up. I this is because Jack's capacity for denial is far greater than Sam's (and that's saying something!), and also because he is more aware of the potential for his actions to be misinterpreted as coercive, as the senior officer. He is desperately proud of Sam and probably terrified that he might do something that would cause her ever to fail in any way.

I'm not going to go into all the reasons - and there are many starting with the purely professional ramifications - why I think Jack agrees to leave it in the room (though his ultimate reason, I believe, is fear of love based on prior loss), but as you said, it's significant that Jack agrees to leave it in the room because I think, whether she's consciously aware of it or not, this sends Sam the very clear message that Jack values his professional relationship with her above any hope of a personal one. In effect, telling her he values her as scientist and soldier above any feelings he's developed for her as a person. Because I hear a question in her tone as she suggests they leave it in the room... She's asking him, subtly, if he wants to, which is one of those examples - IMHO - of her trying to get him to take the lead, which he doesn't do. Instead he follows her 'lead' (for all those previously mentioned reasons) leaving her to believe his love for her - and her love for him - are relatively unimportant.

And before I start getting replies about the regs and about the situation.. I'm not talking about the logical and reasonable reasons they left it in the room but the deeper instinctive impression doing so would have left on Sam's emotions and self-esteem, especially given I believe she already feels Jacob values that part of her less than he does her professional accomplishments. The fallout of which, btw, I think we feel all the way through till Threads when that part of Sam is finally validated.

Anyway, I think that's all I can think of to say for now

Me too, cause I just got to Threads and after that, what more can I say



(plus Pavor Nocturnus just got to the bit I need to rewatch for my fic )

EDIT: And.. OMG... I started writing this before Rachel posted her thoughts... flush 15 more minutes of my life right there lol

[josiane]

*Fangurls all over Josi's awesome review*

Sorry, I'd green you but, apparently, I love you too much already.

Seriously great analysis and I don't have much to add on the subject except I think the episode should have been called "Can Open: Worms Everywhere."

Yes, absolutely!

Oh and this.

Ignoring Daniel for a moment but focussing on Janet and Teal'c watching on during The Confession. I was always under the impression they heard what was said and reacted to it (and thus a thousand "talky feely" fanfics were born - some of which aren't bad actually). However it wasn't until I rewatched with the commentary on (*takes a moment to do my own Martin Wood fangurling* ) that I realised the way the scene is edited is to possibly imply that, in fact, they may be watching - and therefore see that they are not Zatarcs - but they might not have actually heard what was said. i.e the truth of the depth of their feelings might not have been revealed to their colleagues even then. Although, personally, I've never had any doubt Teal'c had known all along. It's an interesting idea, not one I subscribe to though, maybe because I'm tainted by all those fanfics or by my own interpretation all these years, however it would explain just why they were able to carry on regardless without Janet saying something at least; she probably would have been duty bound to report what she'd heard.

Oh that's a good point - I hadn't considered it but you're right in that we don't know for *sure*. However every other time we've seen the iso room/gallery in use the people watching have always been able to hear, so logically I'd assume Janet and Teal'c did.

I am finally delurking...

Josiane, your review just blew me away!!! If only I could formulate my shippy thoughts that way *sigh*

Aw *blushes* It did kind of get a little out of hand

I actually love D&C as an episode and as a story.

I just think they try and cram a lot in within the bounds of an hour - and just never deal with the fallout.

I think that's exactly it, and the reason I feel the frustration I do with it. This za'tarc thing comes out of nowhere and then is never mentioned again, so ends up feeling like nothing more than a plot device.

My analysis of D&C...

Firstly, although we accept it as normal now, this was the first time Stargate really attempted to create a link between sequential episodes that were not formally part of the same story, a sequel to a previous episode or related to the overall story arc (defeating the Goa'uld). Upgrades, Crossroads and D&C still work as stand alone stories but linked together they form a loose trilogy (the loose arc concerning Earth's relationship with the Tok'ra). Even WOO picks up on the Sam/Jack arc to form a kind of fluffy epilogue in regards to the kiss.

TV has changed so much in the last ten/twelve years that we forget that this was a big step forward for a show that lived and breathed the "adventure of the week" format with the reset button pressed every time.

I remember being absolutely blown away by the reuse of the "Upgrades" mission to create the za'tarc result for Sam and Jack; and absolutely blown away as the revelation of what else happened between them at the forceshield. The reveal is just incredible.

I also think that it's easy in hindsight not to realise just how HUGE a moment this was for the show when the couple's feelings are actually brought into the open. They'd clearly been playing with the UST for a while; creating the dynamic and the will-they/won't-they scenario but to handle it so openly was again very unusual in TV terms back then.

And killing off Martouf was a major shock. While I never warmed to the character, that they would kill of a recurring in such a way - someone who the audience had invested in getting to know - was again very unusual.

All these things have kind of turned into TV (and Stargate) norms but they were surprising when the show aired.

Oh very good point. I came to Stargate late, so I didn't realise this when I first watched it, as I was already used to the 'new' way of doing things.

Sam and Jack

The set-up of D&C is very interesting in that for the most part there is a lot of misdirection going on so we have Freya approaching Jack romantically, Martouf approaching Sam romantically. The possibility of 'other' is there.

I have this scribbled in my notes that I made when re-watching but forgot what I wanted to say about it when I wrote them up! I think perhaps that it was another iteration of the dividing and conquering, the way the two Tok'ra try to get in between Sam and Jack, however unconsciously on their part. The blocking in the first scene on Vorash I think was interesting - when Freya/Anise and Martouf are arguing about the za'tarcs in front of Sam and Jack, they are literally standing in between them.

I love the scene when Jack goes to see Sam and tells her he's a za'tarc too. And when she questions whether he's worried that the machine is right. There's just this brief pause between them because if they are za'tarcs, they must wonder what of that moment at the forceshield actually happened - whether it could be a reconstructed memory...

Yes! And what a horrible thought

For me, I don't think either of them have buried it so deep that they don't remember it. I think they just don't initially see the need to explain their deeper feelings about the incident in terms of the machine. It's a personal moment between them when they felt feelings that they're used to not discussing in public and sharing. For them, the moment had no relevance to the mission or the semantics of what happened: Sam got trapped, Jack tried to help her escape. They don't connect that omitting the more personal reasons about the why will cause the machine to think they're lying. From their perspective, they've told the truth about what happened so the machine should accept it.

I guess I think it's not so much that they *really* don't remember it so much as they've shoved it so far down in their minds that they're not thinking about it, and kind of self-censor their own memories not just for the machine. But I completely take your point about them also not seeing why it should be relevant, even without the idea that it's something they consider so private and would not admit.

Although, I too think they recognised they had mutual feelings offworld between Nemesis and Small Victories, for me the moment at the forceshield is still that "OMG we love each other" moment. And while I think Jack knew he loved her, I do think Jack is shocked about the extent to which he loves her. There is just that heartbreaking sense of realisation. Sam, for me, at the forceshield isn't so much 'I was hoping you would never know' as she is 'I can't bear that you're not going to leave me and you're going to die because of that', whereas Jack is 'I can't bear that you're going to die.'

Yes, absolutely. It's the real depth and significance of the feelings that they might be aware of on the surface but haven't actually examined suddenly hitting them.

And has been said, I think Jack's horror in that moment - not his fury and desperation of the earlier one when he is trying to free Sam and can't but the calmer one in which he makes the decision to stand there and die - is because, as he says in WoO, that he can't bear 'going through that again'... can't stand to lose someone he loves and live through the grief of that. So when he says, "I'd rather die myself than lose Carter" it means literally that. Because he's not saying he'd rather die than let her die - that he'd give his life to save hers, which is the typical romantic idea. He's saying that, if she's going to die, he'd rather die then live without her. Which is, IMHO, far more tragic and is, in fact, descriptive of his inner demons more than of his love for her.

Also yes, absolutely It says so much about Jack that this is his decision, and that that is how he sees it - death being preferable to losing her. It wasn't 'I couldn't bear to leave her', it was 'I would choose to die'.

And while you discuss their eye contact and the how grudgingly they admit everything, what really strikes me about the scene is that Jack stumbles and falters a bit during his admission, and it is at that point when he makes eye-contact with Sam and maintains that contact through the rest of his confession. There may be others in that room, but for the space of those minutes, it's just the two of them - he's talking directly to her, and I really get the impression it's her strength he's drawing on to allow him to go through with it.

Now you see, I don't think he was looking at her at all. I watched it back a couple times to make sure, and I'm convinced he only makes eye contact after the confession. Admittedly it's difficult to tell exactly what the sight-lines were, but there's the tiniest flick/change of direction of his gaze right after he finishes, almost as if now he's got it out he's going to check on Sam's reaction. But, y'know, I could well be wrong

Tied to that is the impression I get from Sam while Jack's making his confession. Because while there's discomfort and resignation there in her eyes, and almost a sort of grief for Jack that he's being forced to admit these feelings which he views, I think, as a sort of failure and weakness on his part, there's also - for just one moment - a look of joy. For that one beat, her features soften and she looks, IMHO, like any woman being told by the man she loves that he loves her, too.

Also yes, absolutely. Really the variety of emotions that both AT and RDA manage to convey in this scene is just incredible.

I'm not going to go into all the reasons - and there are many starting with the purely professional ramifications - why I think Jack agrees to leave it in the room (though his ultimate reason, I believe, is fear of love based on prior loss), but as you said, it's significant that Jack agrees to leave it in the room because I think, whether she's consciously aware of it or not, this sends Sam the very clear message that Jack values his professional relationship with her above any hope of a personal one. In effect, telling her he values her as scientist and soldier above any feelings he's developed for her as a person. Because I hear a question in her tone as she suggests they leave it in the room... She's asking him, subtly, if he wants to, which is one of those examples - IMHO - of her trying to get him to take the lead, which he doesn't do. Instead he follows her 'lead' (for all those previously mentioned reasons) leaving her to believe his love for her - and her love for him - are relatively unimportant.

And before I start getting replies about the regs and about the situation.. I'm not talking about the logical and reasonable reasons they left it in the room but the deeper instinctive impression doing so would have left on Sam's emotions and self-esteem, especially given I believe she already feels Jacob values that part of her less than he does her professional accomplishments. The fallout of which, btw, I think we feel all the way through till Threads when that part of Sam is finally validated.

Me too, cause I just got to Threads and after that, what more can I say

And well, you know I agree with you on all of that

[Nynaeve506]

I think what I find frustrating about the za'tarc thing is that we never ever really deal with it again - the actual za'tarc issue not the S/J za'tarc issue. I mean, if they have this GREAT WAY to infiltrate their enemies, why the heck are they not using it all the time?? There's not even a way to counteract it and the testing for it is apparently faulty (realistically how easy is it going to be to test all soldiers - plus I mean, how well does "now tell me how you feel" go over with the big burly marines??).

I mean wouldn't za'tarc creation remove the need for ashraks?

[Rachel500]

I think the za'tarc idea became defunct for the Goa'uld because once the Tok'ra had a way of identifying za'tarc's, the za'tarc's as assassins became ineffective. I don't think it would have removed the need for the Ashrak. The way I look at it the za'tarc technology allowed the Goa'uld to get an assassin in via the back door whereas the Ashrak is more of a full frontal attack.

Just picking up on the scene where they give the confessions - I've always got the impression that once Jack hesitates and Sam prompts him, his eye contact remains with her.

On leaving it in the room; I think they're both hesitant underneath the replies. For me, Sam offers for many reasons (including the fact that deep down she's scared about moving forward) but primarily, I think, because she thinks it's what he wants.

And I think he accepts again for many reasons (including the fact that deep down he's scared about moving forward) but primarily, I think, because he thinks it's what she wants. But I also think Jack's reply of 'And we're OK with that?' has a deeper meaning than 'we're going to be able to work together OK now?' - I think it was a subtle 'are you sure?' - and I do think Sam picks up on that.

But.

Sam never really gets the chance to reply because just as she goes to say something the others come in and she just nods quickly instead as the conversation moves onto the pressing matter of who is the za'tarc if they're not. Who knows if they'd had time and opportunity to talk after the za'tarc tests, would it have made a difference? Possibly not given their deeper fears...

After the events with Martouf...well, I'm guessing the topic was not brought up as Sam would need to deal with the fallout of that and I think Jack would be very hesitant to put any pressure on her.

I agree that Jack's acceptance of 'leaving it in the room' overall does leave Sam with the impression though that she was right in her initial instinct - that Jack would prefer to have her in his professional life than his personal. But at this point she has the comfort of knowing how much he loves her to balance the sting of that. When she later starts to question whether he loves her the same way anymore, it begins to hurt all the more...and makes her reticent about coming forward as deep down she becomes scared he'll reject her.

But I will also say that Sam's acceptance of 'leaving it in the room' overall also leaves Jack with the impression that he was right in his initial instinct - that Sam would prefer to have him in her professional life than her personal and feeds his deeper fears that she could do better than him. But I also think he has the comfort throughout of knowing Sam loves him, and even when they try to move on, I think Jack knows for a long time that Sam still feels something for him until she says yes to Pete's proposal and one of his fears is realised; she finds someone else.

Lucky for them (and us) that it all works out.

[JenniferJF]

But I will also say that Sam's acceptance of 'leaving it in the room' overall also leaves Jack with the impression that he was right in his initial instinct - that Sam would prefer to have him in her professional life than her personal and feeds his deeper fears that she could do better than him. But I also think he has the comfort throughout of knowing Sam loves him, and even when they try to move on, I think Jack knows for a long time that Sam still feels something for him until she says yes to Pete's proposal and one of his fears is realised; she finds someone else.

And I totally agree with this. I was speaking of Sam's PoV on it earlier.. as you say in the bolded bit, Jack is willing to accept Sam only in his professional life because he believes that is what she wants. I'd add that that is almost certainly a correct impression at that point because I believe Sam places more value in herself professionally than personally and, more importantly, feels safer within professional relationships than personal ones and isn't ready to get outside that comfort zone in D&C. Jack really is just going with the signals he gets from her at this point, and his reinforcing her belief that she's most important professionally is completely unintentional (and untrue) because, if he'd gotten the other impression from her, I think right then he'd have moved heaven and earth to be there for her personally.

After all, this is a man who was willing to throw away his entire career to show a little girl what fun was (Learning Curve) so it can't have been because Honor demanded he remain on SG1 fighting the Goa'uld regardless of who it hurt.

[Cagranosalis]

Firstly, although we accept it as normal now, this was the first time Stargate really attempted to create a link between sequential episodes that were not formally part of the same story, a sequel to a previous episode or related to the overall story arc (defeating the Goa'uld). Upgrades, Crossroads and D&C still work as stand alone stories but linked together they form a loose trilogy (the loose arc concerning Earth's relationship with the Tok'ra). Even WOO picks up on the Sam/Jack arc to form a kind of fluffy epilogue in regards to the kiss.

TV has changed so much in the last ten/twelve years that we forget that this was a big step forward for a show that lived and breathed the "adventure of the week" format with the reset button pressed every time.

I am going to respectfully disagree that this was the first time episodic television has ever done this. The X Files was doing this kind of this on a much grander scale 4 years before they even made the first episode of SG-1). Not just the overall mythology arc that spanned 9 seasons but in much more subtle ways - i.e. the forshadowing of Scully's cancer just an episode or two before she finds out about it. There are other episdoic series that did this too, but that's probably the one that most people on this forum would be able to relate to.
Not that it diminishes the fact that it was still a very new thing for Stargate to do, and an extremely clever way to tell this particular story.

I remember being absolutely blown away by the reuse of the "Upgrades" mission to create the za'tarc result for Sam and Jack; and absolutely blown away as the revelation of what else happened between them at the forceshield. The reveal is just incredible.

I also think that it's easy in hindsight not to realise just how HUGE a moment this was for the show when the couple's feelings are actually brought into the open. They'd clearly been playing with the UST for a while; creating the dynamic and the will-they/won't-they scenario but to handle it so openly was again very unusual in TV terms back then.

Yes, that one thing they did sort of break the barrier down on; actually confronting a relationship issue in a series. Even now it's something writers/producers are very reluctant to so. I can only really think of, maybe two contemporary series that allowed the UST to develop beyond that and for that to be shown and a part of what the series was about - Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Farscape. Farscape, for me, proved you don't spoil a TV series, even a sci fi one, by making part of the story about the relationships of the characters.

And killing off Martouf was a major shock. While I never warmed to the character, that they would kill of a recurring in such a way - someone who the audience had invested in getting to know - was again very unusual.

Again, not so much for me. Been there done that, got the tee shirt. Do you know how many characters they killed off in the X Files? Honestly it was a bloodbath!
I was more surprised when they killed Janet, as she is a regular character, rather than just a recurring one. That's something that, even know, you find extremely rare.

I love the scene when Jack goes to see Sam and tells her he's a za'tarc too. And when she questions whether he's worried that the machine is right. There's just this brief pause between them because if they are za'tarcs, they must wonder what of that moment at the forceshield actually happened - whether it could be a reconstructed memory...

Oh good catch!

I think what I find frustrating about the za'tarc thing is that we never ever really deal with it again - the actual za'tarc issue not the S/J za'tarc issue. I mean, if they have this GREAT WAY to infiltrate their enemies, why the heck are they not using it all the time?? There's not even a way to counteract it and the testing for it is apparently faulty (realistically how easy is it going to be to test all soldiers - plus I mean, how well does "now tell me how you feel" go over with the big burly marines??).

I mean wouldn't za'tarc creation remove the need for ashraks?

I don't really see why there can't be both types - Ashrak and Za'tarcs. Both fulfill very specific roles. In a war, it would be foolish to do battle with just one weapon.

I think the za'tarc idea became defunct for the Goa'uld because once the Tok'ra had a way of identifying za'tarc's, the za'tarc's as assassins became ineffective. I don't think it would have removed the need for the Ashrak. The way I look at it the za'tarc technology allowed the Goa'uld to get an assassin in via the back door whereas the Ashrak is more of a full frontal attack.

Or, what Rachel said.

Although I don't think they had an effective way of detecting Za'tarcs at all. I think they had an extremely flawed method of detecting them that maybe worked some of the time but mostly gave false positives because people are too emotionally complex to be effectively analysed in that way. The only other time we see the machine used it's used for hunting a killer among the Jaffa/Tok'ra and even then it gives a false positive.
I think the Goa'uld were very stupid not to capitalise on this and randomly plant za'tarcs to perform a type of petty guerilla warfare; doing enough damage to plant fear and doubt and suspicion in the Tau'ri, Tok'ra and Jaffa and break down the alliance between them. However, I accept the reason why the Goa'uld did not do so is because, at heart, they're not guerilla type terrorists; they are meglomaniacal godlike dictators who believe their own hype abot being invincible. That's why a concentrated joint effort between the main powers in the galaxy was able to defeat them; they just never really anticipated anyone rising up against them.
None of thaat, of course, explains why Za'tarcs were never really heard of again. I don't know, perhaps they only had one za'tarc making device and it got destroyed, or the process of creating one was as dodgy as the process of unmaking one and people died more times than got converted so it became too hit and miss to rely on.

On leaving it in the room; I think they're both hesitant underneath the replies. For me, Sam offers for many reasons (including the fact that deep down she's scared about moving forward) but primarily, I think, because she thinks it's what he wants.

And I think he accepts again for many reasons (including the fact that deep down he's scared about moving forward) but primarily, I think, because he thinks it's what she wants. But I also think Jack's reply of 'And we're OK with that?' has a deeper meaning than 'we're going to be able to work together OK now?' - I think it was a subtle 'are you sure?' - and I do think Sam picks up on that.

Oh yes, certainly! I don't think leaving it in the room was entirely what either of them really wanted to do but, I think Sam needed to make that offer to Jack, being the subordinate, almost in a way of saying "I'm not going to make trouble here" as well as the other meaning because, face it, Jack being the superior officer could have been in deep dog doo for not managing the situation appropriately before this. Sam could have been in trouble too, but I'd guess Jack much more so.

I agree that Jack's acceptance of 'leaving it in the room' overall does leave Sam with the impression though that she was right in her initial instinct - that Jack would prefer to have her in his professional life than his personal. But at this point she has the comfort of knowing how much he loves her to balance the sting of that. When she later starts to question whether he loves her the same way anymore, it begins to hurt all the more...and makes her reticent about coming forward as deep down she becomes scared he'll reject her.

But I will also say that Sam's acceptance of 'leaving it in the room' overall also leaves Jack with the impression that he was right in his initial instinct - that Sam would prefer to have him in her professional life than her personal and feeds his deeper fears that she could do better than him. But I also think he has the comfort throughout of knowing Sam loves him, and even when they try to move on, I think Jack knows for a long time that Sam still feels something for him until she says yes to Pete's proposal and one of his fears is realised; she finds someone else.

It's interesting, and somewhat sad, that they come out of this encounter with this impression of each other, but I think you have pretty much nailed it there. I don't actually think either of them wanted the professional over the personal but both were too afraid to actually do something about the situation and make a go of a relationship. I have always been in the mindset that the regulations were just an excuse and it was personal relationship fears and feelings of inadequacy that had much more to do with why it took them so long to realise the love they had was worth it. I won't go into loads of detail here; I'll just point upwards at Jenn's post and nod. Yeah, what she said right there.

[Cagranosalis]

Because yo posted while I was procrastinating.

After all, this is a man who was willing to throw away his entire career to show a little girl what fun was (Learning Curve) so it can't have been because Honor demanded he remain on SG1 fighting the Goa'uld regardless of who it hurt.

Yes, and this is why, when I read fanfic where they do talk and agree to "wait until the war with the Goa'uld is over" I tend to find it not terribly believable. After all, they could still fight the Goa'uld on different teams and and a relationship. That's not what's really keeping them apart.

[Nynaeve506]

I don't really see why there can't be both types - Ashrak and Za'tarcs. Both fulfill very specific roles. In a war, it would be foolish to do battle with just one weapon.

...

Although I don't think they had an effective way of detecting Za'tarcs at all. I think they had an extremely flawed method of detecting them that maybe worked some of the time but mostly gave false positives because people are too emotionally complex to be effectively analysed in that way. The only other time we see the machine used it's used for hunting a killer among the Jaffa/Tok'ra and even then it gives a false positive.

I think the Goa'uld were very stupid not to capitalise on this and randomly plant za'tarcs to perform a type of petty guerilla warfare; doing enough damage to plant fear and doubt and suspicion in the Tau'ri, Tok'ra and Jaffa and break down the alliance between them. However, I accept the reason why the Goa'uld did not do so is because, at heart, they're not guerilla type terrorists; they are meglomaniacal godlike dictators who believe their own hype abot being invincible. That's why a concentrated joint effort between the main powers in the galaxy was able to defeat them; they just never really anticipated anyone rising up against them.

None of thaat, of course, explains why Za'tarcs were never really heard of again. I don't know, perhaps they only had one za'tarc making device and it got destroyed, or the process of creating one was as dodgy as the process of unmaking one and people died more times than got converted so it became too hit and miss to rely on.

And you're right, they wouldn't have needed to get rid of Asheraks, but you said what I was thinking which is, there's no real reliable way to test (especially on wide scale level) and ultimately this could have been devastating to the Tau'ri. This just goes to show the Goa'uld suck at war. It also goes to show that it was a plot device

And I totally agree with this. I was speaking of Sam's PoV on it earlier.. as you say in the bolded bit, Jack is willing to accept Sam only in his professional life because he believes that is what she wants. I'd add that that is almost certainly a correct impression at that point because I believe Sam places more value in herself professionally than personally and, more importantly, feels safer within professional relationships than personal ones and isn't ready to get outside that comfort zone in D&C. Jack really is just going with the signals he gets from her at this point, and his reinforcing her belief that she's most important professionally is completely unintentional (and untrue) because, if he'd gotten the other impression from her, I think right then he'd have moved heaven and earth to be there for her personally.

After all, this is a man who was willing to throw away his entire career to show a little girl what fun was (Learning Curve) so it can't have been because Honor demanded he remain on SG1 fighting the Goa'uld regardless of who it hurt.

Here here. I just wanted to agree. So. AGREE!

Because yo posted while I was procrastinating.


Yes, and this is why, when I read fanfic where they do talk and agree to "wait until the war with the Goa'uld is over" I tend to find it not terribly believable. After all, they could still fight the Goa'uld on different teams and and a relationship. That's not what's really keeping them apart.

I always have a hard time with the idea of "the war" because SG-1 just never feels quite that gritty. But that's a different topic. LOL And I agree. Again. Just put me on the Cags/Jenn team. Saves me time.

[hedwig]

Having just wandered into thread and reading through the various opinions, I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into the "leave it in the room" subject.

And that is, after Jack's "confession", I don't think there was enough time to really think through anything on the part of either one of them before the situation with Martouf came up. And when Sam suggested leaving it in the room, her intention was to protect both of them, and nothing much more at that point. We didn't hear what she had to say, so in my mind she was suggesting leaving it in the room first to protect Jack, and secondly (as maybe an afterthought) to protect herself. And Jack was all too willing to do just that, since he isn't ever much for talking about personal feelings. If there was any deep thinking happening about the consequences of whatever admissions were made, the deep thinking came along later in the day or the next day or after the whole thing with Martouf was over.

Plus, practically the minute Jack said "we're alright with that" or whatever it was he said, the door opened and Teal'c walked in and there were other people around, so neither of them was likely to continue that conversation any time soon, and they both switched gears to the real matter at hand which was how a zaytarc was detected and who had been tested, and discovering that Martouf had not been tested. And the whole subject of their feelings and the leaving it in the room got shoved to the bottom of the list of importance for the time being, because there were more important things to attend to.

I never got the impression that either of them had enough time to consider whether the other one was interested in pursuing the "relationship" further than where it was right at that moment. I'm quite sure that when the smoke had cleared (so to speak) it came back to both of them and they probably thought about and wondered what the other might be feeling, but both chose not to pursue the matter. They could have talked about it at any time (Sam suggested "leaving it in the room", not "locking it away and throwing away the key"), but both chose not to.

[EvenstarSRV]

Yes, and this is why, when I read fanfic where they do talk and agree to "wait until the war with the Goa'uld is over" I tend to find it not terribly believable. After all, they could still fight the Goa'uld on different teams and and a relationship. That's not what's really keeping them apart.

I think this is where the realities of the TV show come into play, because the show was called Stargate: SG-1, therefore the characters need to stay on the same team. It wasn't until S8 that we got a different arrangement, and that seemed to be more a way to keep RDA on the show despite his lessened schedule.

But I do also like the idea that Jack and Sam chose to wait to pursue anything until the major threats to Earth were defeated. It's personally what I enjoy the most about the relationship, that they chose to put the needs of their team and the SGC above their own personal desires. I also don't see the 'leave it in the room' bit to be a choice between purely professional vs personal, but rather them both deciding, 'ok we've both admitted to deeper feelings for each other, but it can't go any further at the moment, so let's focus keeping the friendship we currently have.' I still firmly believe that through the ebbs and flows of the ship, Jack and Sam remain good friends and never slide back into the professional relationship they started at in S1.

Having just wandered into thread and reading through the various opinions, I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into the "leave it in the room" subject.

And that is, after Jack's "confession", I don't think there was enough time to really think through anything on the part of either one of them before the situation with Martouf came up. And when Sam suggested leaving it in the room, her intention was to protect both of them, and nothing much more at that point. We didn't hear what she had to say, so in my mind she was suggesting leaving it in the room first to protect Jack, and secondly (as maybe an afterthought) to protect herself. And Jack was all too willing to do just that, since he isn't ever much for talking about personal feelings. If there was any deep thinking happening about the consequences of whatever admissions were made, the deep thinking came along later in the day or the next day or after the whole thing with Martouf was over.

Plus, practically the minute Jack said "we're alright with that" or whatever it was he said, the door opened and Teal'c walked in and there were other people around, so neither of them was likely to continue that conversation any time soon, and they both switched gears to the real matter at hand which was how a zaytarc was detected and who had been tested, and discovering that Martouf had not been tested. And the whole subject of their feelings and the leaving it in the room got shoved to the bottom of the list of importance for the time being, because there were more important things to attend to.

I never got the impression that either of them had enough time to consider whether the other one was interested in pursuing the "relationship" further than where it was right at that moment. I'm quite sure that when the smoke had cleared (so to speak) it came back to both of them and they probably thought about and wondered what the other might be feeling, but both chose not to pursue the matter. They could have talked about it at any time (Sam suggested "leaving it in the room", not "locking it away and throwing away the key"), but both chose not to.

This is pretty much how I see that scene. They didn't have time to really process what had been confessed before more pressing matters needed to be dealt with. And I don't see either of them talking about it later either, because I feel that if they did then they'd both feel duty-bound to report it to Hammond and deal with the situation, which would likely lead to breaking-up the team. By leaving it as a 'what if' scenario, it remains nebulous enough that it doesn't really have to be reported and the team can stay together, but tangible enough to be a comfort through the tough times they face.

I'd also like to add that to me the final scene where Sam kills Martouf is one of the most tragic on the series and one of my favorite Sam angst moments. It was actually this scene that first got me looking for Stargate fanfic, since I was so disappointed that the show only briefly dealt with Sam's feelings on the matter, which I thought was a pretty big deal, Sam having to kill a friend.

[Cagranosalis]

Banner by Luvnjack

Synopsis

The one where Jack and Teal’c get stuck in a time loop with occasionally hilarious consequences. I think that covers it.



Favourite Scene

This one:

gif by Jann and used with permission and thanks

I’m so predictable.



Favourite Line

Jack: "In the middle of my backswing!"


Review
What’s great about this episode is the way it goes from complete hilarity to utter seriousness and extreme angst in a heartbeat. For, maybe thirty minutes this is all about Jack (mostly) and Teal’c coping with the stress of reliving the same day over and over - having to explain to the others what’s going on, go through the same repetitions and slowly losing the plot, only to then get reminded by Daniel that they can goof about without consequences. And so they do and we have that wonderful montage of hilarity and priceless moments, culminating in that wonderful dip’n’kiss.
But none of that is specifically what makes this episode great; what makes it great it that last scene back on the planet, when Jack’s trying to convince Malachi to turn off the machine and the episode does an amazing flip from total humour to utter angst. The pain on Jack’s face as he shouts out in empathy and frustration, about the loss of his son; it’s raw and heartfelt. One of the few times we ever really see Jack’s emotional guard down, and the hesitation - he can’t talk about it, even if he wants to - is exactly what it’s like when the loss of a loved one is still so raw that you just can't talk about it without cracking. I can’t stress enough how awesome Richard Dean Anderson’s acting is here, and indeed throughout this episode. I’ll also take a moment to give credit to Christopher Judge too since he rarely ever gets much and he does such an incredible job of playing Teal’c so stoical and straight when, in fact CJ’s real life personality is anything but.
On the more technical side, it’s never really fully explained how the whole time machine device works, although we find out a great deal about the Ancient’s history through this episode. And did Daniel actually get killed the first time? Malachi’s words and single mindedness at achieving his end goal seem to indicate he did.
I also think this episode subconsciously reveals that Jack really isn’t as dumb as he tries to pretend to be, because he certainly doesn’t have a problem learning Latin (which is by no means an easy language) even if it’s obvious he find it interminably boring to do so.



Implications For Sam And Jack

The first thing that comes to mind is that, immediately after that pivotal forceshield scene we’re all back to business. I might even say Jack’s a bit flirty with Sam there at the start; at least he does his usual "let’s say something to get a smile out of her" thing he does. Whether that’s overcompensating for the enormity of what happened (i.e. it’s all cool and we’re normal… yeah we can do this) or whether they’ve just completely buried the whole thing under a big steaming pile of DENIAL and are steadfastly ignoring even their own feelings I can’t say.
Later on though, when Jack’s looping, there’s a moment between him and Sam where you can see he’s really rather wistful. He’s a bit depressed anyway because the looping is starting to take its toll and Sam comes along, spouts some technobabble and Jack doesn’t even really have the heart to tell her to stop or cut to the chase like he normally does. I think she’s trying to cheer him up (oh where’s Jenn’s brilliant gif - that sums it up) and it works to an extent but, when she goes he’s back to square one, only with a definite air of regret. I really think we see a moment there when Jack’s longing for her breaks through his facade. It's something we really only see fully maybe three times after that so it's rare indeed. All of which builds up of course, to him doing just what he desires in the end, when he realises there are no consequences.

And I can hardly discuss this episode without mentioning that kiss. This is the moment that we have unequivocal proof (in case you had any doubts) that the feelings he has for Sam are the romantic kind. And, you know what else? This also it unequivocal proof Sam feels the same way because not only does she not push him away but, once over the shock, she snakes her arm up and pulls him closer. Somewhere in all that, tongues start duelling and saliva gets exchanged (And I’ll take just a second to be immensely jealous of Amanda Tapping at this point. )
What’s more, not only does this give us proof those feelings are romantic love, but it gives him proof too. And that’s the reason for that slightly… ok a lot lovesick puppy look he’s giving her right after. He’s completely smitten and, poor old Sam; totally clueless and she’ll never remember this.
So why resign beforehand? Blowing off all the usual arguments about him being a man of honour etc. or, at least adapting them, maybe the reason he resigned was because he really was hoping that it’s like the fairy tales and the kiss breaks the spell. Maybe a little part of him hoped it would not reset this time and kind of take the choice out of his hands. But of course, if it doesn’t reset then he’d hardly want to screw over both their careers so resigning is really more an insurance policy than an necessity. Because, face it, no consequences, why bother?
I know there’s a lot of speculation about if there was more than one kiss and, frankly I think so. Jack’s going to want to do that over again, for sure. There’s nothing I like more than reading WoO kiss scenario fanfics (and that’s probably one of the reasons I love this episode so much) but I also need to say I think he probably stopped short of going any further. Because ultimately, what would be the point if she didn’t remember?

There’s also a moment back on the planet when the humour turns to angst. It takes a lot for Jack to say what he did and you see the camera cut to the reaction shots from the other, but it’s obvious Sam is most affected. Is that shippy? I think it is and I’ve always squeed just a little at her reaction there. Beautifully cut together and very significant.

Finally there’s the very end, when they’ve broken the time loop, Daniel’s waffling again and he asks that no consequences question again. Jack gives Sam a look, Daniel sees it, exchanges a glance with Sam who smiles. I just love that scene because it says so much about their characters. Daniel, if he’s oblivious before, must have been getting an inkling at this point. And Sam certainly knows but she doesn’t seem to mind much.

And thus, by the end of the episode, we’re back to the fairly normal equilibrium of Sam and Jack being friendly and slightly flirty and, I think, they truly have pushed aside the enormity of what happened recently; at least enough to work together on the same level as before and to allow their guards down a bit. I think there must have been some introspection on their part, independently because I don’t think they talked about it, but whatever the reason they seem to have both come to the conclusion that they can deal with this thing and they can work well regardless of it and despite all their feelings, they have also come to like each other as friends too. When talking about there being lots of other reasons besides regulations keeping them apart, one thing I have always thought was some of it was fear that, if a romantic relationship didn't work (for whatever reason) they would risk losing their friendship too. It's a lot to ask someone to put on the line, as well as the sacrifices they would have to make to their professional lives.

[Rachel500]

Cags, great review. I need to spread the love before I can green you apparently.

Anyways, WOO is one of my all time favourite episodes primarily for the reason you stated - the combination of the hilarity and utter angst in the one episode. This, IMO, is what makes Stargate SG1 so great; it can offer up and point out the wonderful funny humour of a situation but then in a heartbeat just shift to the total pain and angst of it. I love Stargate.

Just saying.

I remember shouting at my TV the first time I watched it WOO. Because after Daniel's comment about consequences, I was like, is Jack going to kiss Sam? No, they'll never allow that. OMG, he's resigning. OMG, he's going to KISS HER!

And for me, it does take away the argument used by some that Jack saying he cared about her more than he should was all about friendship because, hello? He kisses her!

And she kisses him back.

I'm also of the opinion that Jack kissed her more than once. I think in my Aftershock I kind of went with the idea that he did it as a reward every day to help motivate himself to continue (because as we see he's intelligent enough to learn the Ancient but he's just incredibly bored) and Sam also gives him tacit permission (in a very obscure conversation where they talk about golf). But I also don't think he would go any further.

In terms of the resignation; I do think it was a "just in case" because Jack had no way of knowing that Malachi wouldn't stop the loop himself at some point. In which case, 'no consequences' would have turned into a whole pile of consequences and I think resigning was Jack's way of ensuring Sam's reputation and career wouldn't be affected.

I love that scene with Malachi too. Because it is so heartrendering. Charlie's death is still so raw for Jack and you can see how much empathy there is for his pain - again, Sam's reaction here is a mirror for her reaction in Continuum. I also agree that it shows that Jack fears he won't be able to live through another loss of a loved one (although he is specifically talking about living through his son's death again, I agree on a deeper level I think Jack is scared he won't live through losing someone he deeply loves again).

[JenniferJF]

I notice you credited both Jann and I on it, but that is my .gif, not Jann's. But the point is, yes, *I* made a kiss gif because that is the only real they-both-meant-it-and-wanted to be kissing kiss Sam and Jack ever have had onscreen (even if they both don't remember it). What's great about it is, in effect, it's a second reveal because, rather than simply being told Sam reciprocates Jack's feelings at the end of D&C, we're shown she does here in WoO which, IMHO, is a far more interesting way of seeing it .

Other than that, I'd like to add I think WoO has, hidden there at the end, one of the most significant lines to understanding Jack and his motivation in allowing Sam to walk away from him the way he does, which is his "I couldn't go through that again" in referring to Charlie's death...