Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

I like that scenario . . . that's the kind of thing that works for me. But I can't see him calling florists and picking ribbon colors.

No, he'd have Daniel do that . . . or Teal'c. Teal'c has an eye for color.

[Rachel500]

Post Threads/How they got together/Flowers

I think Sam and Jack made the decision to become "more" relatively easily after Threads/Moebius (in fact more easily after Moebius because I think the timeline change meant Jack wasn't her CO when they went to the cabin in the new revised timeline) - so I really don't see them having angst about moving forward nor too hung up about "dating" per se or doing the traditional courtship.

But I do think having gotten together, there would have been some issues in adjusting to changing their relationship from a primarily working one that prohibited a personal one to a primarily personal one that they couldn't allow to influence their work (especially in the areas where Jack did have oversight or there was a convergence). But I think both of them are too aware of what they could lose if they didn't work out their adjustment issues to let it get so far that it would be a major problem for them.

I do see as others have said that they would love the small stuff; holding hands, spending time together without having to be watchful of how much they touch or look at the other, of sleeping in on a Sunday, having breakfast and reading the paper in bed, going out for dinner somewhere low-beat and friendly but as a couple.

But I also think they would also love the moments when they might have a grand gesture - so Sam surprising Jack with a visit, Jack surprising Sam with some gadget she wanted; the occasional night when they do get dressed up to go out for dinner or the opera (Jack complaining about the suit all the time and Sam rolling her eyes affectionately but glad to get out of her strappy heels later).

Flowers - While I would agree that I don't see Jack doing the whole Pete "I want to impress you" number (which is why Pete did the flowers and dinner date thing, IMO), and neither can I see him picking a bunch of flowers from a meadow to present to her, I can see him picking up a bunch of something that looks pretty from a street seller/florist on his way home spontaneously as a "I want to cheer you up"/"I just want to show I'm thinking about you." And I think Sam would appreciate the flowers but more the underlying motivation. I also don't think Jack would use flowers as an apology item (more because I think that was probably what he did with Sara and I think he knows Sam wouldn't accept or let him get away with offering flowers almost in lieu of an apology).

[hlndncr]

I think Sam and Jack made the decision to become "more" relatively easily after Threads/Moebius (in fact more easily after Moebius because I think the timeline change meant Jack wasn't her CO when they went to the cabin in the new revised timeline) - so I really don't see them having angst about moving forward nor too hung up about "dating" per se or doing the traditional courtship.

OK, you said something interesting here that peaks my curiosity. I've thought about the post-Thread/Moebius timeline more than I care to admit. As I understand it, in the original timeline post-Threads they went to the cabin and then two weeks later they go back in time. Obviously they are still in the same chain of command, but they definitely seem to have some understanding (hence some illicit hand touching in the briefing). In fact, they seem to have resolved some of their issues before Daniel even shows up again at the end of Threads (hence the sitting next to each other and knees practically touching in that briefing).

When they go back in time and change things we find them in Carter's lab with the ZPM before going to the cabin two weeks before the events of Moebius and they never go back in time. But I guess I always thought everything (but the random fish in Jack's pond) stayed the same. When Jack takes the ZPM and tells her she has packing to do (presumably for their trip to the cabin) it suggested to me that they were leaving for the cabin shortly. Jack still appears to be in command, and he still only has one star on his BDU so he hasn't been promoted yet (although I regonize that there have been some "wardrobe malfunctions" in that regard, ie The Shroud). Sam's lab is the same so it doesn't look like her transfer has happened yet. And Daniel and Teal'c are still with them at the cabin (who I think they brought along for chaperones).

So I'm curious, what leads you to believe they aren't in the same chain of command at the cabin the second time around? Why would one or both of them be transferred at least two weeks earlier in the revised timeline?

[Rachel500]

OK, you said something interesting here that peaks my curiosity. I've thought about the post-Thread/Moebius timeline more than I care to admit. As I understand it, in the original timeline post-Threads they went to the cabin and then two weeks later they go back in time. Obviously they are still in the same chain of command, but they definitely seem to have some understanding (hence some illicit hand touching in the briefing). In fact, they seem to have resolved some of their issues before Daniel even shows up again at the end of Threads (hence the sitting next to each other and knees practically touching in that briefing).

When they go back in time and change things we find them in Carter's lab with the ZPM before going to the cabin two weeks before the events of Moebius and they never go back in time. But I guess I always thought everything (but the random fish in Jack's pond) stayed the same. When Jack takes the ZPM and tells her she has packing to do (presumably for their trip to the cabin) it suggested to me that they were leaving for the cabin shortly. Jack still appears to be in command, and he still only has one star on his BDU so he hasn't been promoted yet (although I regonize that there have been some "wardrobe malfunctions" in that regard, ie The Shroud). Sam's lab is the same so it doesn't look like her transfer has happened yet. And Daniel and Teal'c are still with them at the cabin (who I think they brought along for chaperones).

So I'm curious, what leads you to believe they aren't in the same chain of command at the cabin the second time around? Why would one or both of them be transferred at least two weeks earlier in the revised timeline?

My hypothesis is based entirely on the photos. In Threads, Jack has his legs crossed; body language relaxed but closed. In Moebius, Jack is sprawled all over his chair; he's more, uh, how would Jenn put it? Laid back.

Now, I tend to go with the view that they wouldn't physically cross the boundary (beyond hugs and hand touches aside) until the CO/subord issue was dealt with. They've lasted this long; I just can't see them saying to hell with it (I know some other shippers feel differently). And I can see Jack wanting to keep it above board so there isn't the slightest thing to call Sam's integrity into question by others or herself even. So where Threads clearly has them at the fishing trip but thereafter they're still serving in the same chain of command, I don't see them as physically together. They know they're going to be together; are together in theory just not in practice while everything is getting sorted. So for me the fishing trip in Threads is the promise that they're going to be together not that they are.

However, the Moebius timeline did change things (there's a fish!!) and I just think somehow in that timeline between Daniel's return and the fishing trip, whatever needed to happen to get things sorted a LOT quicker, happened. So the fishing trip for me is the beginning of Jack's retirement or Sam's transfer to Area 51 is officially going through that night even if she'll be at the SGC for a while or any number of other possibilities that account for them both still being at the SGC for the finding of the ZPM but within twenty-four/forty-eight hours later, they're out of each other's chain of command, fishing and Jack looks like he's just climbed out of bed and sprawled in a chair because Sam has told him they can't be naked when Daniel and Teal'c arrive. So, for me, in Moebius, the fishing trip isn't the promise that they are together, it's the certainty that they are together.

(And kind of separate but linked to this is the idea that I do think story-wise by showing that our universe but a different timeline Sam and Jack got together, it was meant to reinforce the oblique suggestion of fishing=together that the scene in Threads provided).

[Akamaimom]

My hypothesis is based entirely on the photos. In Threads, Jack has his legs crossed; body language relaxed but closed. In Moebius, Jack is sprawled all over his chair; he's more, uh, how would Jenn put it? Laid back.

Now, I tend to go with the view that they wouldn't physically cross the boundary (beyond hugs and hand touches aside) until the CO/subord issue was dealt with. They've lasted this long; I just can't see them saying to hell with it (I know some other shippers feel differently). And I can see Jack wanting to keep it above board so there isn't the slightest thing to call Sam's integrity into question by others or herself even. So where Threads clearly has them at the fishing trip but thereafter they're still serving in the same chain of command, I don't see them as physically together. They know they're going to be together; are together in theory just not in practice while everything is getting sorted. So for me the fishing trip in Threads is the promise that they're going to be together not that they are.

However, the Moebius timeline did change things (there's a fish!!) and I just think somehow in that timeline between Daniel's return and the fishing trip, whatever needed to happen to get things sorted a LOT quicker, happened. So the fishing trip for me is the beginning of Jack's retirement or Sam's transfer to Area 51 is officially going through that night even if she'll be at the SGC for a while or any number of other possibilities that account for them both still being at the SGC for the finding of the ZPM but within twenty-four/forty-eight hours later, they're out of each other's chain of command, fishing and Jack looks like he's just climbed out of bed and sprawled in a chair because Sam has told him they can't be naked when Daniel and Teal'c arrive. So, for me, in Moebius, the fishing trip isn't the promise that they are together, it's the certainty that they are together.

(And kind of separate but linked to this is the idea that I do think story-wise by showing that our universe but a different timeline Sam and Jack got together, it was meant to reinforce the oblique suggestion of fishing=together that the scene in Threads provided).

(And it's interesting that you bring that up--the different poses, I mean. PdL does the commentary for Moebius, and he talks a lot about how the pose for O'Neill and Sam is exactly the same as it is in Threads--Exact same shot, he says. But it's not. I've gone back and looked at it several times. And it always struck me as the same thing.

"Before" and "After". Even if the shots were used subconsciously, I think that the implication is the same.

And you've just eloquently put into words what I've been trying to explain in my head for a while, now, and I thank you!

[EvenstarSRV]

I can't imagine that it would be so simple. I tend to think it took them a bit longer; even if they got closer *ahem* at the cabin, once they parted for their posts their doubts and insecurities reasserted themselves to some degree. Interacting as a couple is *very* different than interacting as CO/2IC, even if they were equal in anything but rank.

I have two versions of how they got together post-Threads in my head; both come from fanfics...or rather both fanfics matched my thoughts exactly. In the fluffier version, stressing their equal footing, it happened gradually just like Annerb described it in her "DC series". In the other version, dare I say it: darker and more (for me) realistic, it happened just like Artaxastra described it in her fic "3 days away", taking into account their issues with having/relinquishing power and control.

I agree with you about the DC Series, Annerb's take on how Sam and Jack start a relationship is very close to how I imagine it myself. I haven't had a chance to read Artaxatra's but I've enjoyed most of her other stories.

I do think it would have taken them a while to get together after Threads/Moebius, not necessarily because of their feelings for each other, but because of everything Sam went through in Threads where she not only lost her father but she also ended a long-term relationship that very nearly ended in marriage and nearly lost Daniel again. As much as she loves Jack, I think it would take her a while to sort through her emotions concerning all of that before she'd feel ready to start a relationship with Jack (or anyone for that matter), and i think Jack would also want to give her that time to figure herself out. As such I don't really care for fics where they get together at the cabin because it feels far too soon after Jacob's death and the end of Sam's engagement to me. But to each their own of course.

[hlndncr]

My hypothesis is based entirely on the photos. In Threads, Jack has his legs crossed; body language relaxed but closed. In Moebius, Jack is sprawled all over his chair; he's more, uh, how would Jenn put it? Laid back.

Now, I tend to go with the view that they wouldn't physically cross the boundary (beyond hugs and hand touches aside) until the CO/subord issue was dealt with. They've lasted this long; I just can't see them saying to hell with it (I know some other shippers feel differently). And I can see Jack wanting to keep it above board so there isn't the slightest thing to call Sam's integrity into question by others or herself even. So where Threads clearly has them at the fishing trip but thereafter they're still serving in the same chain of command, I don't see them as physically together. They know they're going to be together; are together in theory just not in practice while everything is getting sorted. So for me the fishing trip in Threads is the promise that they're going to be together not that they are.

However, the Moebius timeline did change things (there's a fish!!) and I just think somehow in that timeline between Daniel's return and the fishing trip, whatever needed to happen to get things sorted a LOT quicker, happened. So the fishing trip for me is the beginning of Jack's retirement or Sam's transfer to Area 51 is officially going through that night even if she'll be at the SGC for a while or any number of other possibilities that account for them both still being at the SGC for the finding of the ZPM but within twenty-four/forty-eight hours later, they're out of each other's chain of command, fishing and Jack looks like he's just climbed out of bed and sprawled in a chair because Sam has told him they can't be naked when Daniel and Teal'c arrive. So, for me, in Moebius, the fishing trip isn't the promise that they are together, it's the certainty that they are together.

(And kind of separate but linked to this is the idea that I do think story-wise by showing that our universe but a different timeline Sam and Jack got together, it was meant to reinforce the oblique suggestion of fishing=together that the scene in Threads provided).

I totally agree with the bolded, in fact that whole paragraph but especially the bolded part. But I guess a slight change of posture and one fish isn't enough to convince me that everything was worked out faster the second time around.

I agree with you about the DC Series, Annerb's take on how Sam and Jack start a relationship is very close to how I imagine it myself. I haven't had a chance to read Artaxatra's but I've enjoyed most of her other stories.

I do think it would have taken them a while to get together after Threads/Moebius, not necessarily because of their feelings for each other, but because of everything Sam went through in Threads where she not only lost her father but she also ended a long-term relationship that very nearly ended in marriage and nearly lost Daniel again. As much as she loves Jack, I think it would take her a while to sort through her emotions concerning all of that before she'd feel ready to start a relationship with Jack (or anyone for that matter), and i think Jack would also want to give her that time to figure herself out. As such I don't really care for fics where they get together at the cabin because it feels far too soon after Jacob's death and the end of Sam's engagement to me. But to each their own of course.

I love Annerb's DC Series; although it is not how I personally see them getting together. I really think it happened quite quickly after Threads/Moebius, but not at the cabin because they were still in the same chain of command IMO.

In my mind, in fact, they got married right away. I base this on my own personal experience. (I have many friends who met and married their spouse within 3 months and so it doesn't surprise or bother me when people marry first and date later. I also have two friends who waited 14 years to be together (very long story) and when things finally worked out they couldn't get married fast enough.) I also believe it was the best way to neutralize the frat reg issue permanently; and I don't see them taking a chance with that. And I actually think the broken engagement and Jacob's passing would have been more of a motivation for Jack and Sam to move forward quickly. I don't think she was devastated by her break up with Pete. In fact, I think she relieved that she didn't make such a big mistake. And I believe Sam knew Jacob would have aproved, based on her last conversation with him, and she would have seen once again that life is too short.

But I admit the timeline still has me a bit confused. In Avalon we are told that Sam took command of Area 51 R&D a week before, and it seems to me that Jack was at Homeworld Security/Command longer than a week because Landry has settled in at the SGC and Jack's already got his house, etc. sold; so he seems pretty settled into his new position too. So I'm not sure when or how Sam was ever out of Jack's chain of command. No one's presented me with a scenario that feels quite right. So I'm open to other points of view.

[Pol]

Re: flowers. There's an excellent fic called Botany Lesson that addresses this. I don't have the link handy, but I'll bet someone will.

[iiradned]

I really love this place. Participating here has helped me clarify and strengthen my faith in .

Upon further reflection, the reason that passage I quoted from Continuum Interrupted resonates so strongly with me is that we never got to see Jack pour on the charm and direct it at Sam and sweep her off her feet and have it count.

In my own personal canon, and will celebrate their 5th wedding anniversary during season 2 of SGU. They got married soon after their time at the cabin, celebrated their first anniversary during S10 of SG1, their second during S4 of SGA, third during S5 of SGA, and their fourth during S1 of SGU.

[Petra]

I do think it would have taken them a while to get together after Threads/Moebius, not necessarily because of their feelings for each other, but because of everything Sam went through in Threads where she not only lost her father but she also ended a long-term relationship that very nearly ended in marriage and nearly lost Daniel again. As much as she loves Jack, I think it would take her a while to sort through her emotions concerning all of that before she'd feel ready to start a relationship with Jack (or anyone for that matter), and i think Jack would also want to give her that time to figure herself out. As such I don't really care for fics where they get together at the cabin because it feels far too soon after Jacob's death and the end of Sam's engagement to me. But to each their own of course.

I completely agree. I admit I have a soft spot for the fics in which they get together at the cabin, but realistically I don't think it happened that way for the reasons you stated. Additionally I think that there would have been concern that Jack took advantage of her fragile emotional state or at least emotional confusion, and that's another reason for them to wait a bit longer, untill Sam sorts out her feelings and regains equilibrium.

In my mind, in fact, they got married right away. I base this on my own personal experience. (I have many friends who met and married their spouse within 3 months and so it doesn't surprise or bother me when people marry first and date later. I also have two friends who waited 14 years to be together (very long story) and when things finally worked out they couldn't get married fast enough.) I also believe it was the best way to neutralize the frat reg issue permanently; and I don't see them taking a chance with that. And I actually think the broken engagement and Jacob's passing would have been more of a motivation for Jack and Sam to move forward quickly. I don't think she was devastated by her break up with Pete. In fact, I think she relieved that she didn't make such a big mistake. And I believe Sam knew Jacob would have aproved, based on her last conversation with him, and she would have seen once again that life is too short.

As you know, I'm not a big fan of Sam and Jack getting married (hey, it was number 1 on my List of Unpopular Opinions! ) and it seems to me that Jack's failed marriage and Sam's 2 broken engagements would put them off the idea. Besides, as I mentioned, I see them as a fairly unconventional couple who wouldn't need a piece of paper to be truly happy and they don't strike me as people who'd want to get married on moral or religious grounds.

Having said that, I admit that marriage as protection against the frat regs makes sense and I guess I could see them doing it because of that...but I'm not entirely convinced.

But I admit the timeline still has me a bit confused. In Avalon we are told that Sam took command of Area 51 R&D a week before, and it seems to me that Jack was at Homeworld Security/Command longer than a week because Landry has settled in at the SGC and Jack's already got his house, etc. sold; so he seems pretty settled into his new position too. So I'm not sure when or how Sam was ever out of Jack's chain of command. No one's presented me with a scenario that feels quite right. So I'm open to other points of view.

Meh, I tend to ignore it as yet another timeline goof on part of TPTB, much like the scene in which Jacob says he was blended with Selmak for 4 years instead of 6. Personally I think at least a few weeks, maybe even months, passed between the events of Threads/Moebius and Avalon.

[Akamaimom]

I really love this place. Participating here has helped me clarify and strengthen my faith in .

Upon further reflection, the reason that passage I quoted from Continuum Interrupted resonates so strongly with me is that we never got to see Jack pour on the charm and direct it at Sam and sweep her off her feet and have it count.

In my own personal canon, and will celebrate their 5th wedding anniversary during season 2 of SGU. They got married soon after their time at the cabin, celebrated their first anniversary during S10 of SG1, their second during S4 of SGA, third during S5 of SGA, and their fourth during S1 of SGU.

[hedwig]

Re: flowers. There's an excellent fic called Botany Lesson that addresses this. I don't have the link handy, but I'll bet someone will.

You mean this one? Botany Lesson by VSS

[leiasky]

In the other version, dare I say it: darker and more (for me) realistic, it happened just like Artaxastra described it in her fic "3 days away", taking into account their issues with having/relinquishing power and control.

Do you have a link to that fic?

But he might ask a certain secretary to acquire some for him. . .

I dunno. I see that as far too impersonal for Jack.

I completely agree. I admit I have a soft spot for the fics in which they get together at the cabin, but realistically I don't think it happened that way for the reasons you stated.

I have that same soft spot but I have to agree. I think that they probably came a solid decision about their relationship at the cabin but until they were settled in their new positions, there was nothing physical.

Besides, as I mentioned, I see them as a fairly unconventional couple who wouldn't need a piece of paper to be truly happy and they don't strike me as people who'd want to get married on moral or religious grounds.

Having said that, I admit that marriage as protection against the frat regs makes sense and I guess I could see them doing it because of that...but I'm not entirely convinced.

You and I have the same view on this subject, it appears

[hlndncr]

Now that we are coming to the end of Season 6, any word on the Season 7 rewatch schedule?

[leiasky]

You mean this one? Botany Lesson by VSS

I ADORE anything VSS writes. I wish she'd write more! *whimpers*