Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Akamaimom]

Did you shippers feel Jack acted in character when he wasn't pissed off that Sam dated Pete?

I'm quoting this again to add an "on the other hand".

I did think it was mildly out of character for him to not be more annoyed that Pete showed up at Daniel's house. I thought that his blase acceptance of the whole deal was odd. And while I can see that Sam had some heavy duty blinders on while she was dating the shru--I mean--man, I would have loved to see a confrontation between Jack and Pete.

Wouldn't that have been fun? A little "As the World Turns-y", but fun.

[EvenstarSRV]

Did you shippers feel Jack acted in character when he wasn't pissed off that Sam dated Pete?

I'm not a shipper, but yes I think Jack was very much in character. I agree with Akamaimom that he probably should have been more upset at Pete for interfering with the stakeout, but I can't see Jack being angry at Sam for dating Pete.

Too lazy / tired to go back and quite everything but, great discussion about regs and what kept them apart!

Personally...

Do I think the regs were an excuse for them not to be together? Yes.
Do I think they were just an excuse? No.

I'd say there's a 50/50 split between them not stepping over that line because of honour/duty etc. and using that line as a reason not to take a greater risk with their relationship. Face it, when they did decide they were ready to take it further it wasn't that hard, was it?

I don't subscribe to the opinion that they were "waiting" for the war to be over or in some kind of mutually agreed holding pattern waiting for each other? No. And if Grace isn't all the evidence of where Sam, at least, sees their relationship then I doubt I could convince you otherwise. Again, at any time, they could have, had they wanted.

Regarding the bolded, I think this is where the realities of making the show have an impact on the in-show storytelling/character development. IMO, as long as Sam and Jack were both on SG-1 or at the SGC, then they couldn't start a relationship because it would significantly affect the set-up of the show. I think there could have been dozens of episodes like Divide and Conquer or Grace, but every time the writers would have had to, and pretty much did, reset their relationship to teammates/friends because the mostly episodic format of the show required it.

Plus, considering we haven't actually seen on-screen how Sam and Jack acted between Threads/Moebius and when we are assuming they got together, we have only our own assumptions/interpretations as to how easy or hard it was. Personally, I believe it was fairly tricky for them but I know many others think differently.

What I do think is that there were two big factors (regs aside, so three in total) that kept them from acting.
The first being, I think Sam and Jack both really enjoyed their jobs. They like the position they had and the working relationship they had, if it was very important for them. To get together would have meant one or both of them moving to another position. Neither were willing to do so.
The second thing I think was their friendship. I think they'd developed a huge fondness and respect for each other outside of any romantic feelings they have. Actually I think that's one reason why their relationship just works so well on any level. To actually take someone who is a great friend of yours, and to move that relationship into a romantic context is quite a risky thing to do anyway, without factoring in the fact that, in doing so, you would, literally, have to make massive life changes.
What if it didn't work out? What if they'd gone to Hammond, asked for reassignment for one/both of them - or Jack had retired - and they'd embarked upon a relationship and... 6 months, a year later, it's had all gone wrong? What then? Not only would they have turned their lives upside down to do so, but they'd have ruined their working relationship and their friendship in the process. So I think the fear of ruining what they already had - which was great - was too significant for them to do so. I think they were both kind of waiting for the other to make a move - to indicate that it was what the wanted. It was only when they'd already reached the point where their friendship was under strain, and their working relationship was untenable, that it made no sense for either of them to not be together... so they got together.

So, yes the regs were very important, but they were easily got around if they'd wanted to. They just chose not to for lots of other reasons.

In other realities, they didn't have the regs as an issue. Presumably they didn't have the same working relationship / dynamic that built up from the start. The people they were were different in small ways from the people in "our" reality. I think it's far more complex than just "Sam wasn't in the military so there were no regs" that differentiates them, and why they go together so much sooner in those realities.

I do agree that their love for their jobs and their friendship contribute as well as the regs, and that it wasn't just the lack of regs that allowed Sam and Jack to get together in the AUs, because shouldn't the frat regs still apply even when Sam is a civilian? I just don't think that for our reality's Sam and Jack the regs would have been easy to get around because it would have required one of them to leave the team, something the AU couples never had to deal with.

[Cagranosalis]

Regarding the bolded, I think this is where the realities of making the show have an impact on the in-show storytelling/character development. IMO, as long as Sam and Jack were both on SG-1 or at the SGC, then they couldn't start a relationship because it would significantly affect the set-up of the show. I think there could have been dozens of episodes like Divide and Conquer or Grace, but every time the writers would have had to, and pretty much did, reset their relationship to teammates/friends because the mostly episodic format of the show required it.

Well that's exactly it. In reality they would never have been serving together that long anyway, they would never have been allowed to stay serving together after admitting their feelings in Divide & Conquer and, in fact, they got away with a lot more than they would have done if this was real. And in real life I'm pretty certain , despite all insecurities/reasons/excuses they would have resolved things a good few years earlier.
That they did it this way is because it's drama and it's what works best for dramatic tension. And nothing sells better than a bit of Angsty UST. But, as you rightly point out, it's necessary to maintain the status quo of the team dynamic for the duration of the series becuase, after all, the show was called Stargate: SG-1 and not As The Stargate Turns.

Plus, considering we haven't actually seen on-screen how Sam and Jack acted between Threads/Moebius and when we are assuming they got together, we have only our own assumptions/interpretations as to how easy or hard it was. Personally, I believe it was fairly tricky for them but I know many others think differently.

I do assume they got together after Threads logically - and emotionally - it would be the right thing for them to have done. And because almost all the evidence I see suggests that's the case. If I imagine any other scenario (them not getting together or them agreeing to wait until retirement or them suddenly realising it's been platonic all along) then it just doesn't make as much sense.
I do think you have a point about how quickly that happened; I don't think they rushed off out to get married straight away or anything like that, but I do think that, once they'd resolved any hangover issues from before, they would have acted fairly decisively. I tend to assume that a period of at least a few weeks - if not slightly longer - took place in the interval between Anubis being defeated and them all going fishing and I think that they worked things out in that time and, yeah, in my world, they were definitely sharing a bed on that fishing trip.

[Petra]

What I do think is that there were two big factors (regs aside, so three in total) that kept them from acting.
The first being, I think Sam and Jack both really enjoyed their jobs.

*snipped for space*

The second thing I think was their friendship.

*snipped for space*

I agree with everything Cags wrote. I just wanted to add that the above is why, IMO, once they realised they had feelings for each other, neither of them did anything about it. I know that the antis say that if they really loved each other they'd do whatever was necessary to no longer be in the same chain of command and get together immediately, but by doing so they'd risk their friendship, working relationship and they'd split the best, most successful SG team ever. Which was unacceptable for them both.

I did think it was mildly out of character for him to not be more annoyed that Pete showed up at Daniel's house. I thought that his blase acceptance of the whole deal was odd. And while I can see that Sam had some heavy duty blinders on while she was dating the shru--I mean--man, I would have loved to see a confrontation between Jack and Pete.

I agree. The notion that Jack should be pissed at Sam because she dared to date another guy baffles me to no end, but I do think that Jack's lack of any reaction to Pete crashing their stake-out and putting his team in jeopardy was very OOC. I tend to put it down to the writers' efforts to show how cool and universally liked and understood Pete was.

I do agree that their love for their jobs and their friendship contribute as well as the regs, and that it wasn't just the lack of regs that allowed Sam and Jack to get together in the AUs, because shouldn't the frat regs still apply even when Sam is a civilian? I just don't think that for our reality's Sam and Jack the regs would have been easy to get around because it would have required one of them to leave the team, something the AU couples never had to deal with.

I'm not sure if the frat regs, even if they were exactly like ours, would apply to AU Jack and Sam. Maybe in the first reality, where Jack was a general and in charge of the base, but in the other one? Jack was SG-1's leader, Sam was civilian scientist working in the labs - I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to see each other or get together?

[Akamaimom]

I'm not sure if the frat regs, even if they were exactly like ours, would apply to AU Jack and Sam. Maybe in the first reality, where Jack was a general and in charge of the base, but in the other one? Jack was SG-1's leader, Sam was civilian scientist working in the labs - I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to see each other or get together?

And it could have been that in both realities, Sam and Jack were together even before she joined the program. We just don't know the timelines.

[hedwig]

I agree. The notion that Jack should be pissed at Sam because she dared to date another guy baffles me to no end, but I do think that Jack's lack of any reaction to Pete crashing their stake-out and putting his team in jeopardy was very OOC. I tend to put it down to the writers' efforts to show how cool and universally liked and understood Pete was.

I like to think there was some kind of fall-out over the Pete incident. We just didn't get to see it. I just can't see Jack or Hammond letting go of the issue simply because of their loyalty to Sam. It had to have been reported to the higher ups, given that the higher ups almost always seem to know about stuff at the SGC the minute it happens (never could figure out how reports get filed as fast as they seem to be - oh, well). And given how sympathetic and understanding Sam is with people (even when they don't deserve it), she probably felt a bit sorry for Pete and (sadly) continued to see him, in spite of what he did ... and the rest is history. This is about the only way I can justify(?) that.

I'm not sure if the frat regs, even if they were exactly like ours, would apply to AU Jack and Sam. Maybe in the first reality, where Jack was a general and in charge of the base, but in the other one? Jack was SG-1's leader, Sam was civilian scientist working in the labs - I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to see each other or get together?

Not that I take "Avenger 2.0" all that seriously, and even though it was Felger's fantasy - when Jack and Sam caught he and Chloe kissing, Felger immediately said he realized that it was against the rules for him to fraternize with Chloe, etc. - I'm pretty sure those regs apply to everyone on the base, whether they be civilian or military.

[Petra]

I like to think there was some kind of fall-out over the Pete incident. We just didn't get to see it. I just can't see Jack or Hammond letting go of the issue simply because of their loyalty to Sam. It had to have been reported to the higher ups, given that the higher ups almost always seem to know about stuff at the SGC the minute it happens (never could figure out how reports get filed as fast as they seem to be - oh, well). And given how sympathetic and understanding Sam is with people (even when they don't deserve it), she probably felt a bit sorry for Pete and (sadly) continued to see him, in spite of what he did ... and the rest is history. This is about the only way I can justify(?) that.

Well, in my personal canon that's exactly what happened, and Jack had a not-so-nice, long chat with Pete and Sam - but my point was, it was never shown on-screen, and therefore Jack's uncharacterisitc passivity is 'true' canon.

Not that I take "Avenger 2.0" all that seriously, and even though it was Felger's fantasy - when Jack and Sam caught he and Chloe kissing, Felger immediately said he realized that it was against the rules for him to fraternize with Chloe, etc. - I'm pretty sure those regs apply to everyone on the base, whether they be civilian or military.

See, I took this as yet another example of Felger channeling/trying to imitate Jack, his biggest hero. That sounds like something Jack would say, not Felger. I also thought it was a remark directed at the shipper audience and it never crossed my mind to take it seriously as a statement about rules on base.

[Akamaimom]

Well, in my personal canon that's exactly what happened, and Jack had a not-so-nice, long chat with Pete and Sam - but my point was, it was never shown on-screen, and therefore Jack's uncharacterisitc passivity is 'true' canon.



See, I took this as yet another example of Felger channeling/trying to imitate Jack, his biggest hero. That sounds like something Jack would say, not Felger. I also thought it was a remark directed at the shipper audience and it never crossed my mind to take it seriously as a statement about rules on base.

That's how I saw that Felger line, too. He was--in a word--brownnosing. (or is that two words?)

[hlndncr]

That's how I saw that Felger line, too. He was--in a word--brownnosing. (or is that two words?)

Or perhaps he's just acknowledging that such actions are completely inappropriate in that setting regardless of rules and regulations. That's how I took it. I mean, I've heard there are people who do go for it at work, but how unprofessional!

[Akamaimom]

Or perhaps he's just acknowledging that such actions are completely inappropriate in that setting regardless of rules and regulations. That's how I took it. I mean, I've heard there are people who do go for it at work, but how unprofessional!

I agree with the unprofessional stance--it is. But I don't think that Felger would go all the way on base--he's not exactly Don Juan.

Besides, he doesn't know where the right storage closet is.

I would be interested to know exactly what the policy is, though. I know people who have been civilians working with the military, but I never thought to ask. Surely it would not vary from base to base.

Although, Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis seemed inclined to keep it on the hush hush. . .so maybe it is taboo. . .

[Nynaeve506]

Well, the one thing about Stargate is that it doesn't hold to real life LOL.

IMO the regs turn into an excuse - because in real life, Jack would have very likely (very, very likely) flown a desk and one or both would have been transferred out within a few years. The more knowledge you have, the more valuable you are - too valuable to go out to get yourself blown up.

As for the idea of it being an excuse, that doesn't mean it's a weakness. Yes they loved their jobs, but they aren't civilians, they're military which means they should be looking at how they can best serve...but of course, we're talking television, and they're our band of superheroes which means they show up each time the seasons get renewed.

I'm half asleep so I know this is stilted. I think Akamai said it.

And additionally, if this followed real life, Hammond should have transferred them right after D&C - to protect his program and to keep any implication of impropriety far far away.

Maybe it's unpopular but I'm of the mindset that the complicated relationship SG-1 had was a liability (too tired for qualifications - but to quote Star Trek - the good of the many outweigh the good of the one).

:: shrugs ::

I told you I was half asleep

[Rachel500]

So, I've been following the discussion with great interest.

I am in the camp that thinks the regulations, while providing a valid reason for Sam and Jack not to be together, ultimately became a smokescreen for deeper fears that prevented them moving forward.

I've posted this before so in spoilers (but no actual spoilers):

Spoiler:

For me, their motivations in keeping the status quo are multi-layered, some conscious, some subconscious and they involve a lot of assumptions about what the other wanted/would make the other happy because they never truly talked openly about what was between them, and the times they touch implicitly on the topic, they usually communicate in vague terms that leave each other without any real understanding of the truth.

For me, the motivations are as follows:

Conscious Both:

1. The mission is more important.

That whole concept of duty before love. They've both sworn oaths to protect their country and both take this seriously. Neither feels comfortable at the idea of their personal feelings affecting their professional judgement (even though every now and again, this happens despite their best efforts).

They have to put the safety of Earth ahead of their feelings and the events of Entity drive that home for Jack in a big way causing him to withdraw from Sam to enable him to do it.

2. SG1 is more important

Both of them feel a responsibility to their team and know any decision to pursue a relationship would also impact Teal'c and Daniel. They're a good team and breaking them up would reduce their chances of success; neither is truly prepared to take that risk.

Conscious Jack

1. Regulations because protecting Sam's career is important to ensuring she fulfils her potential and is happy.

He believes that her career in the AF is what she wants more than anything. Her wish to keep it in the room underscores that.

2. Because ultimately she could do better than him.

He has put her on a pedestal and more I think he worries his past makes him a poor choice for her. She deserves someone without his baggage; that ultimately she will meet someone better and move on. Her decision not to change their status quo adding to Jack's belief that even she must think the same on some level because she's not prepared to change the status quo to be with him. When she decides on marrying Pete, he must think he was right all along.

Conscious Sam

1. Regulations because protecting both their careers is important.

She assumes that her own worries about the impact to their careers is his. That he agrees to keep it in the room helps substantiate this belief for her.

2. Because after a while she wonders if he does love her that way anymore

Especially after Entity, Jack's feelings for her become much more ambiguous to her. By Grace, she's definitely wondering if all there is between them is friendship on his part. And conversely, she wonders if he truly wants to be with her if he's never asked her to change the status quo. His seeming encouragement for her to marry Pete in the conversation in Affinity and confusing non-answer to her 'if things were different' statement probably suggest to Sam that she was right; that all he sees her as is a friend.

Sub-Conscious Jack

1. Fears he wouldn't make her happy and safe

From his perspective, Jack's biggest failure was his inability to keep Charlie and Sara happy and safe. For me, although he has a second chance with Sam, the fear that he wouldn't make her happy is very real for him.

Sub-Conscious Sam

1. Fears fully committing to a relationship as it ultimately ends in loss and pain

Sam is scared of loving someone as it inevitably means losing them and the pain of their loss. She tells herself this in Grace. For a long time, she hides behind the illogical idea that its much better not to be with someone because she wouldn't get hurt with their loss rather than cherishing whatever time she would get with someone she loved.

---

And all the conscious motivations allow them to hide from their real sub-conscious motivations for a long time.

Obviously outside of the character motivations, the reality is that the regulations were an easy shorthand for TPTB to explain why AU Sam and Jack could be together and ours could not and that the show's duration is the only reason why our Sam and Jack don't get together sooner rather than later. As in our actual reality, civilians under contract to the USAF are as subject to the regulations as military staff, I always assume the regulations in the other universes must be different.

I do think from the evidence in the show that the SGC adhered to a policy whether unofficial or official that if you were in a close working relationship even if you were a civilian, you shouldn't be romantically involved. Regardless of Felger, Daniel also uses this argument with Vala in Unending too - "we work together."

[Nynaeve506]

So, I've been following the discussion with great interest.

I am in the camp that thinks the regulations, while providing a valid reason for Sam and Jack not to be together, ultimately became a smokescreen for deeper fears that prevented them moving forward.

I've posted this before so in spoilers (but no actual spoilers):

Spoiler:

For me, their motivations in keeping the status quo are multi-layered, some conscious, some subconscious and they involve a lot of assumptions about what the other wanted/would make the other happy because they never truly talked openly about what was between them, and the times they touch implicitly on the topic, they usually communicate in vague terms that leave each other without any real understanding of the truth.

For me, the motivations are as follows:

Conscious Both:

1. The mission is more important.

That whole concept of duty before love. They've both sworn oaths to protect their country and both take this seriously. Neither feels comfortable at the idea of their personal feelings affecting their professional judgement (even though every now and again, this happens despite their best efforts).

They have to put the safety of Earth ahead of their feelings and the events of Entity drive that home for Jack in a big way causing him to withdraw from Sam to enable him to do it.

2. SG1 is more important

Both of them feel a responsibility to their team and know any decision to pursue a relationship would also impact Teal'c and Daniel. They're a good team and breaking them up would reduce their chances of success; neither is truly prepared to take that risk.

Conscious Jack

1. Regulations because protecting Sam's career is important to ensuring she fulfils her potential and is happy.

He believes that her career in the AF is what she wants more than anything. Her wish to keep it in the room underscores that.

2. Because ultimately she could do better than him.

He has put her on a pedestal and more I think he worries his past makes him a poor choice for her. She deserves someone without his baggage; that ultimately she will meet someone better and move on. Her decision not to change their status quo adding to Jack's belief that even she must think the same on some level because she's not prepared to change the status quo to be with him. When she decides on marrying Pete, he must think he was right all along.

Conscious Sam

1. Regulations because protecting both their careers is important.

She assumes that her own worries about the impact to their careers is his. That he agrees to keep it in the room helps substantiate this belief for her.

2. Because after a while she wonders if he does love her that way anymore

Especially after Entity, Jack's feelings for her become much more ambiguous to her. By Grace, she's definitely wondering if all there is between them is friendship on his part. And conversely, she wonders if he truly wants to be with her if he's never asked her to change the status quo. His seeming encouragement for her to marry Pete in the conversation in Affinity and confusing non-answer to her 'if things were different' statement probably suggest to Sam that she was right; that all he sees her as is a friend.

Sub-Conscious Jack

1. Fears he wouldn't make her happy and safe

From his perspective, Jack's biggest failure was his inability to keep Charlie and Sara happy and safe. For me, although he has a second chance with Sam, the fear that he wouldn't make her happy is very real for him.

Sub-Conscious Sam

1. Fears fully committing to a relationship as it ultimately ends in loss and pain

Sam is scared of loving someone as it inevitably means losing them and the pain of their loss. She tells herself this in Grace. For a long time, she hides behind the illogical idea that its much better not to be with someone because she wouldn't get hurt with their loss rather than cherishing whatever time she would get with someone she loved.

---

And all the conscious motivations allow them to hide from their real sub-conscious motivations for a long time.

Obviously outside of the character motivations, the reality is that the regulations were an easy shorthand for TPTB to explain why AU Sam and Jack could be together and ours could not and that the show's duration is the only reason why our Sam and Jack don't get together sooner rather than later. As in our actual reality, civilians under contract to the USAF are as subject to the regulations as military staff, I always assume the regulations in the other universes must be different.

I do think from the evidence in the show that the SGC adhered to a policy whether unofficial or official that if you were in a close working relationship even if you were a civilian, you shouldn't be romantically involved. Regardless of Felger, Daniel also uses this argument with Vala in Unending too - "we work together."

Woohoo.

What you said! Better than my incoherent, half-asleep thoughts.

[Akamaimom]

So, I've been following the discussion with great interest.

I am in the camp that thinks the regulations, while providing a valid reason for Sam and Jack not to be together, ultimately became a smokescreen for deeper fears that prevented them moving forward.

I've posted this before so in spoilers (but no actual spoilers):

Spoiler:

For me, their motivations in keeping the status quo are multi-layered, some conscious, some subconscious and they involve a lot of assumptions about what the other wanted/would make the other happy because they never truly talked openly about what was between them, and the times they touch implicitly on the topic, they usually communicate in vague terms that leave each other without any real understanding of the truth.

For me, the motivations are as follows:

Conscious Both:

1. The mission is more important.

That whole concept of duty before love. They've both sworn oaths to protect their country and both take this seriously. Neither feels comfortable at the idea of their personal feelings affecting their professional judgement (even though every now and again, this happens despite their best efforts).

They have to put the safety of Earth ahead of their feelings and the events of Entity drive that home for Jack in a big way causing him to withdraw from Sam to enable him to do it.

2. SG1 is more important

Both of them feel a responsibility to their team and know any decision to pursue a relationship would also impact Teal'c and Daniel. They're a good team and breaking them up would reduce their chances of success; neither is truly prepared to take that risk.

Conscious Jack

1. Regulations because protecting Sam's career is important to ensuring she fulfils her potential and is happy.

He believes that her career in the AF is what she wants more than anything. Her wish to keep it in the room underscores that.

2. Because ultimately she could do better than him.

He has put her on a pedestal and more I think he worries his past makes him a poor choice for her. She deserves someone without his baggage; that ultimately she will meet someone better and move on. Her decision not to change their status quo adding to Jack's belief that even she must think the same on some level because she's not prepared to change the status quo to be with him. When she decides on marrying Pete, he must think he was right all along.

Conscious Sam

1. Regulations because protecting both their careers is important.

She assumes that her own worries about the impact to their careers is his. That he agrees to keep it in the room helps substantiate this belief for her.

2. Because after a while she wonders if he does love her that way anymore

Especially after Entity, Jack's feelings for her become much more ambiguous to her. By Grace, she's definitely wondering if all there is between them is friendship on his part. And conversely, she wonders if he truly wants to be with her if he's never asked her to change the status quo. His seeming encouragement for her to marry Pete in the conversation in Affinity and confusing non-answer to her 'if things were different' statement probably suggest to Sam that she was right; that all he sees her as is a friend.

Sub-Conscious Jack

1. Fears he wouldn't make her happy and safe

From his perspective, Jack's biggest failure was his inability to keep Charlie and Sara happy and safe. For me, although he has a second chance with Sam, the fear that he wouldn't make her happy is very real for him.

Sub-Conscious Sam

1. Fears fully committing to a relationship as it ultimately ends in loss and pain

Sam is scared of loving someone as it inevitably means losing them and the pain of their loss. She tells herself this in Grace. For a long time, she hides behind the illogical idea that its much better not to be with someone because she wouldn't get hurt with their loss rather than cherishing whatever time she would get with someone she loved.

---

And all the conscious motivations allow them to hide from their real sub-conscious motivations for a long time.

Obviously outside of the character motivations, the reality is that the regulations were an easy shorthand for TPTB to explain why AU Sam and Jack could be together and ours could not and that the show's duration is the only reason why our Sam and Jack don't get together sooner rather than later. As in our actual reality, civilians under contract to the USAF are as subject to the regulations as military staff, I always assume the regulations in the other universes must be different.

I do think from the evidence in the show that the SGC adhered to a policy whether unofficial or official that if you were in a close working relationship even if you were a civilian, you shouldn't be romantically involved. Regardless of Felger, Daniel also uses this argument with Vala in Unending too - "we work together."

This is truly a wonderfully thought out treatise on this subject. It makes me think more, that's for sure! I vacillate, at times, between the "regs or not" thing. But one thing makes me wonder--if they are subconsciously thinking these things, wouldn't that be exactly why the regs are in place? That kind of uber-closeness that goes beyond "brothers in arms" is something that the military is trying to prevent by having the regs there in the first place, isn't it?

[dexterav]

hmm my favorite thread still alive, iam really happy