Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Cagranosalis]

I noticed that too, and I completely agree with you there. And you know if they were "fishing" she certainly wouldn't be relaxing.

And yet, after they did fish, you'd never seen two more relaxed people.


Great review hlndncr. I particularly love your interpretation of the whole fishing invite. I've always thought the way he asks her is very suggestive.
I might have something more in depth to add later when I've had time to watch proper but, urgh, so busy this week.

[Rachel500]

Sight Unseen

Generally

Ugh. And yes, that was my entire reaction to it the first time.

Like Nightwalkers, the idea that there is this breakout and everyone (apart from Vernon) just merrily accepts the cover story just stretches the bounds of believability too far for me. And while the whole thing is treated as a huge joke (the Sam and Jonas 'cute couple' thing, Vernon and his relative, etc), they just don't execute it right for me. If they had made the guest characters actually more serious rather than comedic, the episode might have had more depth.

Sam and Jack

The fishing invitation and the fact that they are clearly the ones communicating with each other are the only nods.

My take on the fishing invitation is slightly different and angstier.

For me, Sam has come to view the fishing invitations not as the playful "I really like you and think you're hot, but I know we can't be together that way" nod of Small Victories or "I'm madly in love with you and want to go fishing with you" of The Curse, or even the "I really like you and think you're hot and I'm testing the waters to see if you like me and think I'm hot too" of Nemesis but as a mixed message of "you're my friend, Teal'c's my friend, and so I'm inviting all my friends fishing but hey I don't think I really want company (you) because I maybe don't love you anymore so I'll invite you when I know you can't come along." And I think there must have been a couple offscreen between The Curse and Sight Unseen, where Jack had done the same thing, invited her fishing at the last minute but when he knew she had planned to do something else.

So, for me, she's incredibly frustrated because she really doesn't know what he means by the fishing invites anymore. And when Jonas asks her about it, she tries to cover her own not going with an excuse which she truly believes (that fishing isn't her way of having fun essentially).

Equally, I think Jack is frustrated because I think he suspects she still has feelings for him but that she's continuing to put the mission/work first (and because he knows he does the same) and sees her continuing refusal to change her plans to come fishing for him when he invites her as more evidence of that. I also think his motivations for issuing the invitations are almost more a masochistic reminder to himself that he can't have her on one hand, and a deeply hidden hope that one day she'll agree on the other.

So, again, for me, Jack's rejoinder to Sam as she responds to his fishing invitation has bitter undertones. And actually, I do think Jack stops asking her after this.

And, as for the fishing in Threads, I do think Jack asked Sam and Sam said yes - because Jack was sure of her answer, and Sam was certain that the invitation once more meant "I'm madly in love with you and want to go fishing with you."

[hedwig]

My thought on the fishing invitations - including Sight Unseen - is that Jack almost always waited till the last minute or until he was about to walk out the door to leave for the cabin before he invited Sam to go with him. Seems to me if he really wanted her to accept, he would have asked her before she had time to make other plans.

He was leaving the base when he asked her in Nemesis (even though he asked Daniel first - likely knowing that in his condition he couldn't go anyway).

And he was probably pretty sure she'd say no in Small Victories, considering they'd just come back from over a week on another planet.

In The Curse, he did ask her in the briefing room, which surprised me. He must have figured it was okay to invite her in front of witnesses, even if Hammond might have overheard the invitation, since Hammond had just been in the room and gone into his office and could have overheard the invitation.

In Sight Unseen, he asked her as he was getting into the elevator to leave the base (again in front of witnesses). So I really can't believe he isn't prepared for a "no" given what little notice he's given her when he asks.

[EvenstarSRV]

My thought on the fishing invitations - including Sight Unseen - is that Jack almost always waited till the last minute or until he was about to walk out the door to leave for the cabin before he invited Sam to go with him. Seems to me if he really wanted her to accept, he would have asked her before she had time to make other plans.

He was leaving the base when he asked her in Nemesis (even though he asked Daniel first - likely knowing that in his condition he couldn't go anyway).

And he was probably pretty sure she'd say no in Small Victories, considering they'd just come back from over a week on another planet.

In The Curse, he did ask her in the briefing room, which surprised me. He must have figured it was okay to invite her in front of witnesses, even if Hammond might have overheard the invitation, since Hammond had just been in the room and gone into his office and could have overheard the invitation.

In Sight Unseen, he asked her as he was getting into the elevator to leave the base (again in front of witnesses). So I really can't believe he isn't prepared for a "no" given what little notice he's given her when he asks.

I think that's a really good point re the invitations. In Nemesis she was in the middle of a project when he asked her, same with Small Victories (analyzing the replicator blocks), in the Curse she had several ongoing projects she wanted to work on, and here she'd already started work analyzing the artifact they brought back.

With regards to the invites in general, the idea that Sam is supposed to suddenly change her plans to accommodate Jack's wishes always annoys me a bit. And if it's about spending time with Sam outside of the base, why not invite her for stargazing at his house, something I think he should know by know she'd be more likely to be interested in than fishing.

And hlndncr, I really like your point that Sam and Jack are in the situation they're in because of the choices they've both made, and that Sam's willing to point that out to Jack.

[hedwig]

I think that's a really good point re the invitations. In Nemesis she was in the middle of a project when he asked her, same with Small Victories (analyzing the replicator blocks), in the Curse she had several ongoing projects she wanted to work on, and here she'd already started work analyzing the artifact they brought back.

With regards to the invites in general, the idea that Sam is supposed to suddenly change her plans to accommodate Jack's wishes always annoys me a bit. And if it's about spending time with Sam outside of the base, why not invite her for stargazing at his house, something I think he should know by know she'd be more likely to be interested in than fishing.

And hlndncr, I really like your point that Sam and Jack are in the situation they're in because of the choices they've both made, and that Sam's willing to point that out to Jack.

And as much as I do want them to go "fishing" together, it has always bothered me a bit that Sam's idea of fun constantly gets dismissed in favor of Jack's idea of fun - as he sort of did in Nemesis. Granted, he doesn't think what she does for "fun" is actually fun, but he never even bothers to find out what kind of fun things she enjoys doing. It's always as though his idea of fun is the only one that's important, and he has to show her what fun actually is.

[iiradned]

Hint heeded.

Meeting the Bean

That's quite adorable...and its not done yet, right? Right?!

Am waiting for Jack to walk in....and Sam....

Akamaimom just posted a new chapter

Jack finally makes his appearance.

Just absolutely love this series.

[leiasky]

And as much as I do want them to go "fishing" together, it has always bothered me a bit that Sam's idea of fun constantly gets dismissed in favor of Jack's idea of fun - as he sort of did in Nemesis. Granted, he doesn't think what she does for "fun" is actually fun, but he never even bothers to find out what kind of fun things she enjoys doing. It's always as though his idea of fun is the only one that's important, and he has to show her what fun actually is.

Hmm. I never thought of it that way at all. I see it as him trying to get her out of the office. Just 'out' and away from it all.

Had she accepted one of his invitations, I'm sure he'd have learned all about what she likes to do 'outside of work' . For fun.

Or, perhaps she just doesn't have a life outside of work and he knows that and is trying to get her to do something. Anything. To show her that life isn't all about work.

[hlndncr]

Hmm. I never thought of it that way at all. I see it as him trying to get her out of the office. Just 'out' and away from it all.

Had she accepted one of his invitations, I'm sure he'd have learned all about what she likes to do 'outside of work' . For fun.

Or, perhaps she just doesn't have a life outside of work and he knows that and is trying to get her to do something. Anything. To show her that life isn't all about work.

See and I think Jack already knows what she likes to do for fun: motorcycles, flying, etc. She's an adreniline junkie with only one mode: ON. I think Jack likes those things too and would happily do them with her. I just think he wants to show her a different side to fun. One that is a little more relaxed, less driven, more intimate. I don't find that selfish at all.

Balance is not a strong point in Sam's personality. Jack gives her that. That's why I think she's so much more relaxed and comfortable in her own skin after they get together post-Threads. She finally has found some balance.

[Petra]

And as much as I do want them to go "fishing" together, it has always bothered me a bit that Sam's idea of fun constantly gets dismissed in favor of Jack's idea of fun - as he sort of did in Nemesis. Granted, he doesn't think what she does for "fun" is actually fun, but he never even bothers to find out what kind of fun things she enjoys doing. It's always as though his idea of fun is the only one that's important, and he has to show her what fun actually is.

But...he does. Granted, it was never shown onscreen - just like Sam telling him of Jacob's cancer between Secrets & The Tok'ra - but he seems to be the only one aware of how much Sam loves her bike. In Space Race Daniel's the one baffled how can she want to take part in the race; Jack acts like it's something obvious. He's also the (only) one to tease her about her speeding tickets in Chimera. It's circumstential evidence at best, but the way I see it, by season 7 he must have learn about Sam's love for motorcycles and driving fast. The only teammate she mentioned bikes to was Jonas (in Nightwalkers).

I'll play the devil's advocate here, but there's also no proof that he and Sam didn't talk at some point about their hobbies and she admitted to being fond of fishing. She never says she doesn't like it - that's Teal'c - on the contrary, in Threads she says that "it's great". As we've just discussed, the only thing she has to say when openly asked is that she doesn't find it relaxing. So for all we know, fishing can be her hobby too.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I don't see it as dismissing Sam's idea of fun in favour of Jack's. I think the show did a good job showing hobbies and interests outside of work of them both and the only difference was, Jack was shown trying to include his friends in his (then again, it's easier to invite a co-worker for some fishing than for a motorcycle ride)

ETA: Darn, hlndncr beat me to it!

[Akamaimom]

But...he does. Granted, it was never shown onscreen - just like Sam telling him of Jacob's cancer between Secrets & The Tok'ra - but he seems to be the only one aware of how much Sam loves her bike. In Space Race Daniel's the one baffled how can she want to take part in the race; Jack acts like it's something obvious. He's also the (only) one to tease her about her speeding tickets in Chimera. It's circumstential evidence at best, but the way I see it, by season 7 he must have learn about Sam's love for motorcycles and driving fast. The only teammate she mentioned bikes to was Jonas (in Nightwalkers).

I'll play the devil's advocate here, but there's also no proof that he and Sam didn't talk at some point about their hobbies and she admitted to being fond of fishing. She never says she doesn't like it - that's Teal'c - on the contrary, in Threads she says that "it's great". As we've just discussed, the only thing she has to say when openly asked is that she doesn't find it relaxing. So for all we know, fishing can be her hobby too.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I don't see it as dismissing Sam's idea of fun in favour of Jack's. I think the show did a good job showing hobbies and interests outside of work of them both and the only difference was, Jack was shown trying to include his friends in his (then again, it's easier to invite a co-worker for some fishing than for a motorcycle ride)

ETA: Darn, hlndncr beat me to it!

And this might be because she's competitive, and fishing doesn't give her what she needs in a hobby, which is a rush.

[Rachel500]

To fish or not to fish...

I don't think Jack was being particularly selfish in asking Sam fishing rather than asking for her to take a motorcycle trip cross-country. I think the conscious reason for the first invite (Nemesis) was nothing simpler than they had downtime, he was off to the cabin, and wanted Sam to come with him to spend time with her. Full Stop. So, for Jack, the "what" they would be doing was less important than that they would be spending time together.

Alone.

With no Generals or Air Force around.

Had Sam turned round and said, "how about we take a trip cross-country - you like motorcycles, right?", I think Jack would have pretty much gone "OK", even though I also rather think it was subconsciously Jack's way of opening up to her, allowing him to bring her into a very personal part of existence which he rarely shared with anybody at that time. Fishing was his retreat; something private. So even if there had been a trip instead, I can see them sitting by a campfire, and Jack saying "this has been great but you have to let me take you fishing next time" and Sam complaining and then agreeing (and I am so not getting an idea for fanfic - glares at muse).

Of course, after the first invite, the fishing invitation really isn't about the fishing anymore, it's code for them spending time alone with each other. Only after The Curse one, and the events from Entity onwards, I think Sam questions whether it's time together as friends (like with Jack taking Teal'c) or whether it's time together the way he meant it back at the beginning.

Last Minute Jack

I think it's part of Jack's personality to be comfortable with last minute changes of plan, he's used to it, and so again, I don't think Jack thinks anything the first time of asking her last minute or it being a selfish request to expect her to change her plans at the last minute. (By contrast I do think Sam doesn't like last minute changes to plans ordinarily (although she deals because that's part of her job) so finds it hard on a personal level to conceive of changing her plans regardless of all the very good reasons why she shouldn't be alone on vacation with her CO).

I also rather suspect Jack thinks all her plans are work-related stuff rather than not-work-related and therefore he's just providing her with an alternative; being a good CO and encouraging her to have a life beyond work and much needed downtime. So, yes, it's a little presumptuous of him but his heart is in the right place.

After the first time, in Small Victories he knows her answer even before he checks in with her; in the Curse, they're all surprised I think by sudden vacation time, and in Sight Unseen, as I've said, MHO is that he's leaving it to the last minute partially because he can make a quick getaway when she refuses.

[EvenstarSRV]

Hmm. I never thought of it that way at all. I see it as him trying to get her out of the office. Just 'out' and away from it all.

Had she accepted one of his invitations, I'm sure he'd have learned all about what she likes to do 'outside of work' . For fun.

Or, perhaps she just doesn't have a life outside of work and he knows that and is trying to get her to do something. Anything. To show her that life isn't all about work.

But see, to me if it was just about spending time together outside of work, why keep asking her to go fishing? He has a good idea that she'd probably enjoy stargazing (she's the only who knows Jack has a telescope in Singularity), so why not ask her to go stargazing with him? Or given that they both seem to enjoy flying, what about going to an airshow together? That's why Jack's insistence on fishing annoys me a bit, because Jack comes across to me as insisting that Sam join him for 'his' idea of fun, and never tries to compromise and find something Sam might be more likely to enjoy.

Last Minute Jack

I think it's part of Jack's personality to be comfortable with last minute changes of plan, he's used to it, and so again, I don't think Jack thinks anything the first time of asking her last minute or it being a selfish request to expect her to change her plans at the last minute. (By contrast I do think Sam doesn't like last minute changes to plans ordinarily (although she deals because that's part of her job) so finds it hard on a personal level to conceive of changing her plans regardless of all the very good reasons why she shouldn't be alone on vacation with her CO).

And yet, he keeps asking her at the last minute even though he knows she's not used it like him? That's what I don't get, even at the time of the first invite, Jack should know that Sam is not the type who likes to suddenly change her plans, so why does he continue to wait until the last minute to ask her?

I also rather suspect Jack thinks all her plans are work-related stuff rather than not-work-related and therefore he's just providing her with an alternative; being a good CO and encouraging her to have a life beyond work and much needed downtime. So, yes, it's a little presumptuous of him but his heart is in the right place.

But its been referenced that Sam spends time with Janet and Cassie outside of work (renting a row boat, Cassie's birthday party, playing chess), and works on her motorcycle (which as Petra points out Jack very likely knows about). And like I said earlier, if it was about encouraging Sam to do something non-work related during her downtime, why not suggest several alternatives (seriously, unlike in Ascension) instead of just repeatedly asking her to go fishing?

[hedwig]

But see, to me if it was just about spending time together outside of work, why keep asking her to go fishing? He has a good idea that she'd probably enjoy stargazing (she's the only who knows Jack has a telescope in Singularity), so why not ask her to go stargazing with him? Or given that they both seem to enjoy flying, what about going to an airshow together? That's why Jack's insistence on fishing annoys me a bit, because Jack comes across to me as insisting that Sam join him for 'his' idea of fun, and never tries to compromise and find something Sam might be more likely to enjoy.



And yet, he keeps asking her at the last minute even though he knows she's not used it like him? That's what I don't get, even at the time of the first invite, Jack should know that Sam is not the type who likes to suddenly change her plans, so why does he continue to wait until the last minute to ask her?



But its been referenced that Sam spends time with Janet and Cassie outside of work (renting a row boat, Cassie's birthday party, playing chess), and works on her motorcycle (which as Petra points out Jack very likely knows about). And like I said earlier, if it was about encouraging Sam to do something non-work related during her downtime, why not suggest several alternatives (seriously, unlike in Ascension) instead of just repeatedly asking her to go fishing?

Dare I say: Bless you? This is exactly what I was getting at, but never seem able to get my point across .

[Rachel500]

I just want to preface the reply with that I do see where you're coming from because if someone (a guy) had an expectation that I would just be able to drop everything at the last minute, and go do what they wanted and something in which I had no interest all the time, I would be annoyed. But I just disagree with the basic assumption that Jack's behaviour with the fishing invitations equates to that.

<snip for space>

And yet, he keeps asking her at the last minute even though he knows she's not used it like him? That's what I don't get, even at the time of the first invite, Jack should know that Sam is not the type who likes to suddenly change her plans, so why does he continue to wait until the last minute to ask her?

Well, it's only my guess that she does prefer not to have her plans change unexpectedly for a start.

And secondly, Sam handles and is used to changing plans on the spur of the moment all the time in her job so I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption for Jack in the beginning to believe that she'd be OK with an invitation at the last moment. After all Jack isn't insisting she come along, it is only an invitation so it's not as though he's imposing his will on her. It's her choice whether she accepts - and therefore changes her plans or not.

After the first few (like I said I think in Small Victories it was more of a check than another invite, and in The Curse they all get vacation effectively confirmed last moment so Jack's invite is possibly trying to get in before Sam makes plans), and by Sight Unseen, I do think Jack is choosing to do any other invitations (which we don't see) deliberately late not because he expects her to drop everything and join him but actually because it's likely she will have plans and won't. It's "safe" but incredibly confusing and frustrating for her although I don't think he sees that until Sight Unseen when she faces him with it.

But its been referenced that Sam spends time with Janet and Cassie outside of work (renting a row boat, Cassie's birthday party, playing chess), and works on her motorcycle (which as Petra points out Jack very likely knows about). And like I said earlier, if it was about encouraging Sam to do something non-work related during her downtime, why not suggest several alternatives (seriously, unlike in Ascension) instead of just repeatedly asking her to go fishing?

Because as I was trying to say there is a huge difference between the first invitation and the repeats.

With the Nemesis invitation, I don't think Jack honestly knew whether Sam would enjoy fishing or not; it was all about spending time with her outside of a work environment. He even teases her with it in his incredibly vague invitation - if you would rather spend time with your generator than with me in the wilds of Minnesota or some such line. Fishing was just the non-work related/vacation thing that he was going to do and so was the thing he asked her to join him doing and encouraging her as a CO to take her vacation rather than work on stuff in the mountain. If Sam had replied in any kind of positive way to his invite with "I'd love to spend time with you, take some vacation, but actually I don't really like fishing", if he had then insisted it was fishing or nothing then him continuing to invite her fishing would be bad. But they both know, whatever reply she says openly, she turns him down not because she doesn't want to go fishing but because they can't spend time alone together without it being considered inappropriate.

EDIT: Just adding that in reviewing what I've written I also think Jack chose his own activity rather than something he knew she did deliberately to lessen the importance of that first invitation. If he had chosen something he knew she'd like for certain then that might have given her the impression that it was premeditated (which it clearly was but I don't think Jack wanted her to think that so she wouldn't feel pressurised) and that he was actively trying to get her inappropriately alone - because choosing an activity she would enjoy is the act of a potential lover not a CO trying desperately to pretend that he's not in love with you and this is just a no big deal invite that she should feel free to turn down completely.

And after that first invitation, like I said for me, it's not the fishing itself that is important in the invitations, or trying to get her to find a life outside work Jack's reason for inviting her, and nor is fishing and whether Sam likes it or not the reason why Sam continues to say no. But then, I tend to take her reply to Jonas about fishing to be a deflection from her real thoughts and emotions around the invitation.

[hlndncr]

IEDIT: Just adding that in reviewing what I've written I also think Jack chose his own activity rather than something he knew she did deliberately to lessen the importance of that first invitation. If he had chosen something he knew she'd like for certain then that might have given her the impression that it was premeditated (which it clearly was but I don't think Jack wanted her to think that so she wouldn't feel pressurised) and that he was actively trying to get her inappropriately alone - because choosing an activity she would enjoy is the act of a potential lover not a CO trying desperately to pretend that he's not in love with you and this is just a no big deal invite that she should feel free to turn down completely.

Rachel makes a good point here. Planning ahead, asking in advance, and choosing an activity specifically designed for the other person is dating behavior. Now while Jack may have wanted to ask Sam on a date, they both knew he couldn't. His invitations had to sound specifically non-date-like to even keep the veneer of just friendship (despite Jack's true feelings and motivations). And I think if he had asked Sam to do something else and given her more advanced notice she still would have said no, and had time to think it over and freak out about it.

When the fishing invitations were no longer amusing or welcome, for whatever reasons you may choose to believe, she did say enough to put a stop to them, without actually saying to much to make it all seem inappropriate to begin with. They were both walking a very fine line with one another for quite some time.