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    Originally posted by josiane View Post
    - And I like how Jack lets Sam get in the dinghy first when they head back after setting the bomb - the military experts will doubtless correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems far more chivalrous than I'd expect from a CO
    Every time we watch that episode, that little bit sets my husband off. I get to hear about how "No way" should a colonel be the one getting his feet wet while the major rides in the boat and how that exchange itself proves Sam and Jack are already too emotionally involved because Jack is thinking of her more as *Sam* and a woman/friend/maybe-lover than as his military subordinate and that the Right Thing for Them to Do is to move to separate teams before someone gets Really Hurt or they get in trouble when someone notices their far too obvious unprofessional behavior. And speaking of which.. seriously.. why haven't half-a-dozen people or more who've doubtless seen that sort of behavior elsewhere between the two of them complained about it yet?

    So.. uhm.. yeah. What you said. Not appropriate behavior between a CO and a subordinate. Does that answer your question?

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      Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
      Every time we watch that episode, that little bit sets my husband off. I get to hear about how "No way" should a colonel be the one getting his feet wet while the major rides in the boat and how that exchange itself proves Sam and Jack are already too emotionally involved because Jack is thinking of her more as *Sam* and a woman/friend/maybe-lover than as his military subordinate and that the Right Thing for Them to Do is to move to separate teams before someone gets Really Hurt or they get in trouble when someone notices their far too obvious unprofessional behavior. And speaking of which.. seriously.. why haven't half-a-dozen people or more who've doubtless seen that sort of behavior elsewhere between the two of them complained about it yet?

      So.. uhm.. yeah. What you said. Not appropriate behavior between a CO and a subordinate. Does that answer your question?
      Because all the worms would be let out of the can, and they'd have a dickens of a time getting them all back in so they could continue the show for a few more years.

      I've often wondered why it's only Jack and Sam we ever hear about in regard to the regs and not being able to be in a relationship. (The obvious answer being because they are the stars of the show and it's about SG1 and not other SG teams, but still .... ) Surely there must be other members of the military in the SGC in a similar situation with wanting to be in a relationship, but not being able to for similar reasons. Wonders if those others would be as honorable as Jack and Sam have been.

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        Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
        Well, that's perhaps because I was saying it mostly in jest to make col aga feel better about having a ship lite episode.
        (I ought to know by now that sarcasm does not translate well on a computer screen ).

        Although, if you want to talk about touching in general, I think it does depend on the context of the situation. You can look at (for example) this touch and think nothing of it since the do touch fairly frequently, or you can think, given what recently happened and the revelations they have had about their feelings for each other, would they not pull back from this kind of interaction somewhat and be, maybe, a little awkward around each other, at least for a while?
        I suppose if I really wanted to see ship in this scene I'd say that above, and suggest I was expecting them to be a bit more shy of doing their usualy touchy thing.
        Well also I'm terrible at picking up on sarcasm, even with helpful smilies, so sorry for any misunderstandings.

        I think touching really does depend on context, which is why I didn't think anything of them touching in a very mission-related context. Personally, if Sam and Jack are so unable to deal with their feelings that they let them affect even the basic interactions they have on missions, I wouldn't have half the respect for them that I do. To me, while Sam and Jack do have feelings, they are also two people very capable at compartmentalizing those feelings when necessary, Jack especially.

        I dunno, this is just one of things I've found most perplexing about shipping (or anti-shipping where people see the same instances in a negative light). There are definitely moments when I'd say Sam and Jack touching each other was shippy because of the context, but it just confuses me when sometimes every time they touch, no matter how seemingly routine or fleeting, is considered shippy. It's just something I can't get my head around.

        Jack and Sam do touch each other an awful lot though, even for a close team and, ok maybe it is my shippy glasses but more than they touch the others. I think Jack's quite a hands on kind of man anyway, since even from very early on he did a lot of shoulder and arm patting to and general touching all of them. Personally, if I'd worked with a man that touchy with me I think I might have found it disconcerting. Sam, on the other hand, doesn't really reach out and touch people randomly that much at all - that was one of the clues Sam wasn't quite Sam in In The Line Of Duty (she punch-taps Jack on the arm). In trying to think of examples of when she's touched the others, I can really only think of hugging Teal'c in Heroes and a whole load of times with Jack. I don't know if that's significant or not (depends on how rosey your shippy spectacles happen to be) but she might just be taking her cue from Jack's touchyness. I am sure someone can come along and correct me and point me to a dozen times Sam's touched the others though. See, those pesky shippy glasses...
        Well, even just in Watergate Sam put her hand on Markov's shoulder to comfort her when she was upset when she realized all her people were dead. She's hugged Teal'c and Daniel several times, or patted their arms or backs as early as S1. Sam and Jack do share some really good moments when they've touched and I honestly don't mean to downplay those. But to me at least it's not as if it is something exclusive to just them or something Sam learned from Jack IMHO, I mean she held Ferretti's hand in COTG in the hospital when he gave them the address of where Apophis went. And I'll stop now, this is just a bit of a pet peeve of mine, sorry.

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          Originally posted by hedwig View Post
          Surely there must be other members of the military in the SGC in a similar situation with wanting to be in a relationship, but not being able to for similar reasons. Wonders if those others would be as honorable as Jack and Sam have been.
          Well, John's point is that the honorable thing to do is, actually, to move to different teams and, in real life, that's exactly what would happen. It's not really the *actions* which are against the regs, but the emotions, and not because the military is trying to ruin anyone's fun but because they're dangerous to those feeling them and everyone around them. Granted, inappropriate *actions* are also punishable even without emotions, and in my experience, having emotions but not acting upon them is never punished but attempts would be made to avoid reg breaking (like team switching). That scene with the boat simply illustrates why the emotions themselves erode discipline.

          Of course, Sam and Jack are in a deep state of denial (IMHO) and the regs are simply one of the things allowing them to remain so for the next 5 years

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            Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
            Every time we watch that episode, that little bit sets my husband off. I get to hear about how "No way" should a colonel be the one getting his feet wet while the major rides in the boat and how that exchange itself proves Sam and Jack are already too emotionally involved because Jack is thinking of her more as *Sam* and a woman/friend/maybe-lover than as his military subordinate and that the Right Thing for Them to Do is to move to separate teams before someone gets Really Hurt or they get in trouble when someone notices their far too obvious unprofessional behavior. And speaking of which.. seriously.. why haven't half-a-dozen people or more who've doubtless seen that sort of behavior elsewhere between the two of them complained about it yet?

            So.. uhm.. yeah. What you said. Not appropriate behavior between a CO and a subordinate. Does that answer your question?
            Yeah I always feel the need to slam on the disclaimer-type brakes when I start on military stuff, because really all I know about it is what I've picked up from SG1 and from all the people here on GW But Jack's chivalry there did raise a big 'inappropriate' flag, so I'm glad I was barking up the right tree (goodness, what is it with me and the metaphors this morning? ) - as you say, he's thinking of her as Sam, not as his 2IC.
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              Scorched Earth

              Useless trivia but isn't this the first JM/PM script for Stargate?

              Generally...
              Anyways, I agree that the main dynamic of the episode is a bit of a redux of The Other Side with just a twist on the point of disagreement. Here Daniel's viewpoint is definitely that the solution should be to try and enable both to live - it shouldn't be either-or. He does have compassion for the Gadmeer and I agree I think he sees them as more than frozen seeds - he sees what the value in reseeding such an advanced civilisation could be. Moreover, he has more of a mindset that allows him to view the robot guy Lotan as a person rather than as a robot. Daniel is frsutrated by Jack's narrow viewpoint but uses the slim 'get-out-of-jail-free' card Jack tosses at him in sarcasm of trying to find him another way.

              Jack, meanwhile, is more of a here and now guy. In his mind it is an either-or scenario because of the intransience of the robot in following his directive. The Enkarans who he has grown to know and appreciate are under threat - he feels responsible for them and he won't let them down. In a choice between the Gadmeer and the Enkarans, there is no choice for Jack - culminating in his decision to blow the ship even though Daniel is on board. It is another example of how ruthless Jack can be in military mind-set - it bothers him that he will kill Daniel but he will do it.

              And Sam and Teal'c are left in the middle of the tug of war between the two others.

              Sam and Jack

              In many ways, in hindsight, I kind of see Scorched Earth as a hint of the trouble ahead because for me, here Jack allows his personal feelings to get in the way of finding a solution. He likes the Enkarans - he doesn't feel anything for the Gadmeer. Once the initial conversations with Lotan go nowhere, Jack's immediate answer is military - blow the Gadmeer ship up - and he's not prepared to listen to another argument or way of doing something. And ultimately, what we see here too, is that Jack is prepared to kill one of his team if he believes it necessary to protect others.

              I love the scene by the dinghy and the discussion between Sam and Jack because for me it's a sign of how much they're already in trouble in terms of their military relationship. It is in character for Sam to protest even if there weren't feelings between them so her opening line isn't the 'less than professional' moment here for me but rather the way they both allow the topic to drift from Sam's professionally stated concerns that they're doing the right thing and Jack's reply to his more angst-filled 'you wanna talk me out of it' and her quick reply of 'yes, sir' and there is just this moment of tension - of silent acknowledgement that if she pushed him on a personal level, he might give in to her, that professionally he can't allow her that much sway over him and her acknowledgement that she might have the power but she can't allow herself to use it. For me it is a moment of 'are the barriers they've put in place to deal with each other professionally going to hold?'

              And they do and the moment passes but the danger - that lurking danger - is still there beneath the surface...
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                Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                I love the scene by the dinghy and the discussion between Sam and Jack because for me it's a sign of how much they're already in trouble in terms of their military relationship. It is in character for Sam to protest even if there weren't feelings between them so her opening line isn't the 'less than professional' moment here for me but rather the way they both allow the topic to drift from Sam's professionally stated concerns that they're doing the right thing and Jack's reply to his more angst-filled 'you wanna talk me out of it' and her quick reply of 'yes, sir' and there is just this moment of tension - of silent acknowledgement that if she pushed him on a personal level, he might give in to her, that professionally he can't allow her that much sway over him and her acknowledgement that she might have the power but she can't allow herself to use it. For me it is a moment of 'are the barriers they've put in place to deal with each other professionally going to hold?'

                And they do and the moment passes but the danger - that lurking danger - is still there beneath the surface...
                Yes! That's exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't work out how to put it in my review!
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                  Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                  Well, John's point is that the honorable thing to do is, actually, to move to different teams and, in real life, that's exactly what would happen. It's not really the *actions* which are against the regs, but the emotions, and not because the military is trying to ruin anyone's fun but because they're dangerous to those feeling them and everyone around them. Granted, inappropriate *actions* are also punishable even without emotions, and in my experience, having emotions but not acting upon them is never punished but attempts would be made to avoid reg breaking (like team switching). That scene with the boat simply illustrates why the emotions themselves erode discipline.

                  Of course, Sam and Jack are in a deep state of denial (IMHO) and the regs are simply one of the things allowing them to remain so for the next 5 years

                  In fact the denial is so strong that even when Sam decides to move on and starts the relationship with Pete, doesn't ask for a transfer to another team. Jack doesn't act on it either, even though he claims he's happy for her. So, they still work together and spend most of their time together. No the best way to move on
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                    Originally posted by kusanagi View Post
                    In fact the denial is so strong that even when Sam decides to move on and starts the relationship with Pete, doesn't ask for a transfer to another team. Jack doesn't act on it either, even though he claims he's happy for her. So, they still work together and spend most of their time together. No the best way to move on
                    I think part of what was holding them back from *more* was fear of losing what they had - their professional relationship. I think the real irony was that, while they were trying to keep that professional relationship, by S8 he was no longer on the team and they were no longer working together as closely and the angst over Pete was, I think, driving them apart even further so that, despite trying to hold on to what they had they were, in fact, losing everything.

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                      Thanks everyone for being so nice about my first review I think I'll be up for doing another one in season 5. My special thanks for Cags for all her help.

                      As for touching I also didn't find this particular touch shippy, but in such a ship-free episode I felt I needed to point out everything, sort of throw it out there...

                      SCORCHED EARTH

                      This episode is one of my favourites. I love moral dillemma and the team's different approaches to it and IMO the episode itself is beautifully shot.

                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                      Scorched Earth
                      Useless trivia but isn't this the first JM/PM script for Stargate?
                      Didn't they also write WoO, which was earlier?

                      In many ways, in hindsight, I kind of see Scorched Earth as a hint of the trouble ahead because for me, here Jack allows his personal feelings to get in the way of finding a solution. He likes the Enkarans - he doesn't feel anything for the Gadmeer. Once the initial conversations with Lotan go nowhere, Jack's immediate answer is military - blow the Gadmeer ship up - and he's not prepared to listen to another argument or way of doing something. And ultimately, what we see here too, is that Jack is prepared to kill one of his team if he believes it necessary to protect others.
                      I can't quite agree with this assessment. Yes, Jack likes the Enkarans but it's been proven that that rarely gets in his way. If something needs to be done he does it regardless of his feelings (like nearly blowing up Daniel). I don't think he's so adamant to protect them because he likes them but because he's responsible for them. SG-1 spent a lot of time trying to find them a new home (it was mentioned in Watergate), helped them relocate, assured everything would be ok - and now they find out that this is not the case at all. Jack feels he screwed up and he needs to fix it, whereas he doesn't owe anything to Gadmeer.

                      And it isn't true that he isn't willing to listen to new solutions: he asks Daniel if has a better idea and Daniel says "no". Jack then tells him to try to think of something while he goes ahead with the military option which at this point is their only plan. Daniel doesn't report to Jack his progress, he doesn't check in even once so Jack has no idea if he found the solution or not and the Enkarans don't have the luxury of having time to wait. Really, it all comes down to lack of time because Jack is willing to look for another option - but he can't because of time constraints. IMO the situation is different than in The Other Side.

                      Ok, I'm done. Sorry for this, but I'm tired of reading how bad and narrow-minded Jack is in this episode when I see it very differently. It's not against Rachel or anyone on the thread, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

                      Sam and Jack:

                      I don't have anything original to say. I like that even though SE & TOS seem similar at first glance they are in fact very different. The dillemma the team has to solve is less clear-cut than the one from TOS and both Jack and Sam have different attitudes. In TOS Jack could have searched more but he didn't want to; here he wants to but he can't. In TOS Sam agreed with him and supported him, here she clearly disagrees and isn't shy of showing it. IMO they both do admirable job of putting aside their personal issues though and continue to act in a very proffessional way. Even when Sam admits she'd like to talk him out of using the bomb she doesn't overstep her boundaries and IMO does what every good 2IC would do: lets her CO know that he makes a mistake but follows him regardless. yes, there is palpitable tension in the scene but I always took it as Sam being once again confronted with Jack's ruthless side she doesn't like but has to accept and Jack's unwillingness to showhimself in this light again.
                      There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                        Originally posted by col aga View Post
                        I can't quite agree with this assessment. Yes, Jack likes the Enkarans but it's been proven that that rarely gets in his way. If something needs to be done he does it regardless of his feelings (like nearly blowing up Daniel). I don't think he's so adamant to protect them because he likes them but because he's responsible for them. SG-1 spent a lot of time trying to find them a new home (it was mentioned in Watergate), helped them relocate, assured everything would be ok - and now they find out that this is not the case at all. Jack feels he screwed up and he needs to fix it, whereas he doesn't owe anything to Gadmeer.

                        And it isn't true that he isn't willing to listen to new solutions: he asks Daniel if has a better idea and Daniel says "no". Jack then tells him to try to think of something while he goes ahead with the military option which at this point is their only plan. Daniel doesn't report to Jack his progress, he doesn't check in even once so Jack has no idea if he found the solution or not and the Enkarans don't have the luxury of having time to wait. Really, it all comes down to lack of time because Jack is willing to look for another option - but he can't because of time constraints. IMO the situation is different than in The Other Side.
                        I agree with your assessment - it's not narrow mindedness that pushes him forward (regardless of what Daniel thinks) - its the reality of the situation. *Something* has to be done. The Gadmeer ship is coming - one of them has to die as far the situation so far has been presented. The Gadmeer are dead, the Enkarans are alive - Jack has already made a commitment to the Enkaran - boom solution. This is another episode where I think Sam understands what Jack is doing. And another episode that makes me want to slap Daniel upside the head. I recall Jack going off on Daniel in "The Other Side" about how much he wants to talk. Despite the fact that Space Monkey found another solution - I actually agree with Jack. If Jack didn't get proactive, the fate of the Enkarans were sealed.

                        Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo that's all I have to say about that.

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                          Jack didn't really have a chance to make good choice in that episode. He had to choose between two pretty bad options, and he made his decision. He didn't like it himself, but once he had made up his mind, the debate was over. That's part of being a leader - making sometimes sh**y decisions in cr***y circumstances. I might have ended up doing to same if being in his shoes.

                          Overall, a good episode. But the next episode after this one is my all time favorite SG-1 episdoe.

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                            I actually don't think Jack is narrow-minded at all. And that's not what I meant by my post.

                            Let me see if I can explain myself better.

                            Once the initial conversation with Lotan is over, Jack gets firmly fixed on the notion that discussion, any discussion, is over. Some of that is to do with Jack's view of robots (a robot is a robot). Jack doesn't see another option even when Hammond denies his request for military assistance (a scene in which Jack himself alludes to the fact that the situation has taken on a personal edge for him). Back on the planet, faced with the Enkarans begging for help, he comes up with the bomb - another military solution.

                            Now I agree there is a time issue and there aren't many options, and actually I have a lot of sympathy for Jack's position. But the scene in which SG1 discuss the bomb and Daniel protests, Jack's 'give me another choice' is a demand and statement made in the moment for me - it's not an instruction to actually find a different solution because the bomb plan is settled on for Jack - he's made a decision.

                            When Daniel actually does go off and try and find another solution, he does it under the technicality of that statement but even he knows that his subsequent actions were not what Jack intended by the statement and so he even does it without Jack's knowledge.

                            For me, both Jack and Daniel get it wrong in Scorched Earth - because they don't work together but at odds with each other. Jack should have considered letting Daniel go talk to Lotan and continue to try for a diplomatic solution in the first place - and allowed Daniel to utilise his strengths. They could still have built the bomb as a plan B.

                            However, Daniel equally gets it wrong because he doesn't tell Jack what he's doing and because of that he's unaware of the requirements around setting the bomb off (the need for the ship to be in a certain position) so when he goes back to the ship with Lotan after the second unsuccessful attempt to get him to change his mind, he's not completely aware of the restrictions that Jack is working under in regards to the bomb. (Although I don't actually think it would have made any difference to Daniel's actions ultimately).

                            But, for me, Jack has a responsibility as a leader to ensure that this type of thing - the two men working at odds with each other - doesn't happen. As a leader it's on your shoulders to ensure your team is working together and maximising its strengths to achieve your overall goal - that doesn't happen here. So, yep, Scorched Earth is one scenario where I think Jack has to carry the can for the decisions he made.

                            However, I don't necessarily believe he owed Daniel an apology for blowing the bomb knowing Daniel was on the ship - Daniel made that decision himself. And actually I do think Daniel owed Jack an apology for putting him in what was an intenable position by returning to the ship.

                            All that said, I agree that Jack himself isn't happy with the military solution he comes up - his discussion with Sam at the lake reveals that (yay, back on topic!).
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                              Jack's decision in Scorched Earth - to support and protect the natives to whom he has already made a commitment - highlights, I think, one of his central characteristics. I think Jack's natural instinct, as it were, or maybe part of his self-definition, is to protect. It's possible he's in the military not as a profession but because that's who he *is*. You see it with him and his 'team', him and his planet, between him and Sam.. I think it's one of the reasons his failure to protect Charlie (and consequently Sara) hurt him so deeply - it was a failure at his most basic and profound self-definition. I think his desire to protect those he loves is even one of the things that keeps him from Sam - he *couldn't* keep her safe and protected and therefore couldn't bear the thought of loving and losing. It's even why I think he got so upset and rushed Ba'al in Continuum: "What have you done with *my* people..."

                              So, having promised to find the Enkarans a new home and keep them safe, that's what Jack intended to do. They had become, effectively *his* people. So of course he choose to side with them and to do whatever it took to protect them. That's what he does.

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                                This is a discussion thread, so, as part of that discussion, people will have different opinions.

                                That said, those opinions must be expressed with respect, not just for each other but for the actors involved as well.

                                In other words, if you can't say it nice, don't say it at all.
                                Where in the World is George Hammond?


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