Why dont some(or alot) of people like Sam to be...

[Elwe Singollo]

I will be happy when she does

[Bagpuss]

She has commanded several times:

What I'd like to see is Sam put in a place where she has to make the "hard call" like in The Other Side or Unnatural Selection, or have to actually kill someone with hand-to-hand combat. Those kinds of episodes would be some great character development for her.

I agree BCM! Hopefully the writers will come up with similar ideas.Otherwise I have no doubt,that some,not all fans,will be up in arms at SC being inept, etc and even loyal "Sam" fans,may lose hope for her!

On the same note,I hope Jack is written and portrayed as supportive,not sarcastic to her methods,whatever they may be....

Going back to your reply to my previous post:When Jack led the team,he was very much able to take the "Tough Calls".He was the Team leader and he had years of experience in Field decisions,partly due to long experience in "Black-Ops"

Sam has wide experience in diff. fields.Let's wait and watch.

[the dancer of spaz]

Hello all! How's it going? I've actually READ the entire thread this time, so I think I have a general concensus of what people think, which is... good, I suppose.
I'm just gonna talk about each topic separately, because I may ramble otherwise. In fact, I STILL may end up rambling. Sorry in advance.

SEASON SEVEN SAM:
I think she showed emotion, but not as extreme as other people think. "Grace," for example, was the first of its kind, as it actually got into the head of one of the main characters for an entire 45 minutes. We've had character-focused eps throughout the seasons for years, but nothing like "Grace," and I think that scared people. It would seem that people who are what I like to call "Old School Show Fans," like the same stuff that they're used to. There's nothing wrong with that, but I notice that most of these fans don't like Sam in season seven because she shows more emotion and more CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT than she has in any other season.
Also... I notice that most of the people who demean Sam's character because of season seven are of the same group that constantly call her a "Mary-Sue." It's sad really. When she contributes to saving the world, she's played as "Superwoman" or "Ice Queen," however, when she shows that she has a heart, she's "Dana Scully," "Weepy Woman," or "Weak." The character can't please anyone. I don't know - maybe I'm way off-base here. Maybe not.

THE SAM/JACK THING:
Let me just say that I love team-dynamic. I love the team, and though I have my "faves" and am an S/J shipper, I will choose the team over ship any day of the week. That being said, I must say that Sam has been the character that has had to bare the brunt of non-shippers' anger and disdain. Yes, for some weird reason, the writers have decided that Sam should be the only one to show any emotion, but look at season four. Who showed more emotion for the other that season? That's right, Jack. But no one remembers that. They only remember eps like "Evolution: Part Two," "Grace," or "Chimera." All I'm asking for is for people to become more objective than they currently are. Not only does it make posters come off as Sam-haters (which they very well may not be), but it also causes posters to lose credibility for newbies and other people who read the thread.

THE "QUALIFIED" QUESTION:
Is Sam qualified? I think so. No, she hasn't been given a chance to lead (that we've seen), but that's only because canon has not gotten to the level where we absolutely HAVE to see Jack in a General position (duh!). If he's there, they use him; if not, Sam is used. Teal'c will probably never lead, and though that sucks in a way, he and Daniel will need to be there to support Sam, just like the three of them all supported Jack as a leader. Teal'c had and still HAS more experience than Jack and Sam combined, and he still conceded to Jack - and he and Jack are two peas in a pod! "The Lost City: Part Two" is a perfect example of Sam taking charge. Watch the last 45 minutes, and you'll see more of Jack in her than you've probably ever seen. It's a good mixture of the scientist and the leader.

THE THREE-PERSON DYNAMIC:
If I had to evaluate Sam and Daniel's behavior over the past seven years, I would have to say that they have adopted more of Jack's mannerisms than they probably ever wanted to do. Both already contained CONTROLLED hints of sarcasm, but now, from about season five through season seven, they just let it all out - Daniel moreso than Sam during season five, but Sam makes up for it in season seven. Those three characters are all we need, as we'll still have Jack, and no one should replace Jack. Daniel wasn't replaced, he was just DISplaced, and Jonas was his own character. The problem with Jonas (and, subsequently, poor Corin Nemec) was that fanatical people went crazy and didn't give his character a chance. There's really no need for the TPTB to go through that again so late in the game.

OVERALL:
I'm looking forward to season eight, because they could completely ditch the ship, send the team to Mars for an excavation mission, or bring Janet back from the dead, and I'd still watch it, because I trust the writers, producers, etc. I'm looking forward to Sam taking charge of SG-1, because I like change, and I'm looking forward to watching Jack grow up, so to speak, and grab the bull by the horns when he needs to do so. The SGC will probably be fine (probably!). The two of them are ready for this change in their lives, and it should be an interesting development. And, hopefully, Daniel and Teal'c won't fade into the background. I love those guys, too.

[Dani347]

We've had character-focused eps throughout the seasons for years, but nothing like "Grace," and I think that scared people. It would seem that people who are what I like to call "Old School Show Fans," like the same stuff that they're used to. There's nothing wrong with that, but I notice that most of these fans don't like Sam in season seven because she shows more emotion and more CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT than she has in any other season.

I'm sorry, those are huge generalizations to make as to why people don't like Grace or the direction Sam's character is taking. It totally disregards anyone's arguments to say that it's because they don't want change or character development. Or, to say that the reason people dislike Grace is because it's different. Exactly what show was I watching for three seasons? Because the show I watched gave Sam PLENTY of character development, although it would seem here that she never had any until this season, and it's all about character development that people object to. Couldn't the reason be that people are objecting to the WAY her character is developing, not the mere fact of the development? You really believe she didn't show character development in the other seasons? Or, is emotion equated with character development? And, speaking of that Sam showed PLENTY of emotion, a healthy amount for a human being. She wasn't some automan robotic scientist that tptb had to suddenly wake up in season 7 and say, "Hey, we need to let Sam show that she's human and has emotions." They used to show that just fine.

." All I'm asking for is for people to become more objective than they currently are. Not only does it make posters come off as Sam-haters (which they very well may not be), but it also causes posters to lose credibility for newbies and other people who read the thread.

First, who decides who's being objective? In your opinion Jack showed more emotion in season 4. In other people's he didn't. Who can say who is right, when it comes to opinions? And, frankly, the objection to Sam is mostly about her character in season 7, and there shouldn't have to be a tit for tat criticism of Jack (especially from another season) to make criticism of her valid. Anybody have any criticisms of Jack, have at it, and don't feel like you have to match them with criticisms of Sam. And, sorry if this comes off *****y, but I frankly don't care how credible I sound to people. I call it like I see it. I try to present my arguments as well thought out (to the point of being verbose) as I can, but I can't do anything about people's perceptions and if they see me as a Sam hater, there's nothing I can do, and I won't change my arguments when they reflect exactly how I feel.

[ShadowMaat]

It would seem that people who are what I like to call "Old School Show Fans," like the same stuff that they're used to. There's nothing wrong with that, but I notice that most of these fans don't like Sam in season seven because she shows more emotion and more CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT than she has in any other season.

Oh, I'm all for emotion and character development. But that depends on the emotion, the amount of it and exactly what kind of character development we're talking about. Learning all about Sam's pathetic crush on Jack is not the kind of character development I'm looking for, nor is it the kind of emotional content I want to see. And for the record, I haven't seen Grace and have no intention of ever seeing it.

Also... I notice that most of the people who demean Sam's character because of season seven are of the same group that constantly call her a "Mary-Sue."

Speaking for myself, I have never once called Sam a "Mary Sue". I love the character. I think she's a great role model (or was) and a fine addition to the team. Not knowing these "Sam bashers" by name I can't say whether or not any of the others complaining are doing so to bash her. What I've gotten from this thread is that a lot of people who genuinely love the Sam character are upset to see her being portrayed the way she has been this past season.

That being said, I must say that Sam has been the character that has had to bare the brunt of non-shippers' anger and disdain.

Speaking strictly for myself, I feel that Sam is the character who has suffered the most at the hands of TPTB this season. However, I hate what has been done to the character of Jack as well and have said so on several threads. If Jack was showing "too much" emotion in S4, he's showing none at all in S7. Unless you count anger. But then, I haven't found Jack very likeable since S5.

I'm anti-ship, but I love each of the characters, both individually and as a team. I'm very pro-Team. Unfortunately, TPTB are systematically making me hate each character. Sam annoys and embarrasses me, Jack infuriates me, Daniel is dull and frustrating and Teal'c... sorry, who's he? Oh, that guy propping up the wall? *sigh*

Change is good... when it's for the better. Emotion is good... when it's the right emotion and in the right quantity. Character development is good... when it takes the character forward and broadens our understanding of that person.

Of the changes, emotions and character development I've seen in S7 (and admittedly, I only watched part of it), I found very little of it to be "good". I hate the direction the show is going and I hate the direction TPTB are taking the characters. I don't feel that the show or characters are changing for the better. If anything, they're getting worse. They're regressing.

I'm not sure I care for your generalizations and snap judgements, but if that's the way you see things then nothing I say is going to change your mind. I just wanted to get this down for the record.

[Asgard-VA]

I'm new to the forum so please forgive me if someone else has already suggested this. Do you think that Adam Baldwin (Colonel Dave Dixon in Heroes, Part I) might become a regular as the next leader of SG-1? It almost seemed that his character was similar to Jack's in the limited time he was in the episode. If he were to become a regular, it might help to keep some of the Jack-like humor in the show.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sam's character, but making SG-1 a three person team with Sam in charge would make the dynamics of the unit very different. Jack's somewhat rash, military solutions were offset by Sam's and Daniel's scientific/diplomatic solutions. If Sam is elevated to command of the unit, that element of the stories would disappear. If you added a new military member under Sam's command, you'd definitely have someone providing the Jack like solutions. On the other hand, a lower-ranking officer couldn't get away (realistically) with making sarcastic comments like Jack. Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Dani347]

Change is good... when it's for the better.

Yes. I object to the snap judgement that anytime someone has something negative to say about the show now, it's because they don't like change. And, the argument is left at that, as if all change is good, and no matter what kind of change, if you don't like it, you're an old fuddy duddy. If they decided to turn whatever gou'ald they had left into pastry chefs and have the entire SGC do an American Idol competition, and had Sam in a bikini as her standard uniform (And I'm talking about the whole season, not some warped special episode) that would be change. Would people really come up with the "you just don't like change" argument if they implemented these aspects? If so, I'd say that was carrying loyalty to the show a tad too far. But, assuming people want at least a semblance of the premise of the show, no one would raise an objection to others objections. And, it should be the sane here. If you disagree, disagree. But, don't just lump it all in with not liking change. Not all change is good. Certainly not for all people.

Sorry, I'm rambling now.

[ShadowMaat]

Yes. I object to the snap judgement that anytime someone has something negative to say about the show now, it's because they don't like change.

Yep. It's on my list of Most Hated Comments in Fandom.
"You just don't like change."
"You only like him because he isn't Jack."
"You only like him because he isn't Daniel."
"You must have been watching a different show."
"You're just mad because Jonas left."

If people would actually read what is being said and maybe even- gods forbid- tried to understand it, maybe they'd see there's more to it than stupid blanket statements like that.

As for the changes you suggested... If the goa'uld all became pastry chefs... I can only imagine what Luke's reaction would be. Poor guy.

Dunno about the American Idol thing, although I suspect Teal'c would reveal some long-hidden talents in that department.

Personally, Sam in a bikini would do nothing for me, but I'm sure there's a contingent of fans who would LOVE that.

[epiphany]

Totally agree with you ShadowMaat. Sam was always a three dimensional character, in fact I found her way more three dimensional in the first three seasons than she is now. Now she's just this weak, wishy washy "girl". Even watch her in the hall with Jack in Evolution Part 1 explaning their supersoldier capture plan or with Col. Ronson(I think that is his name) at the beginning of Grace. She's like some little girl looking for a pat on the head from Daddy. I mean Ronson even utters the lines "Oh I'll do it just to see the look on your face", you half expected him to pinch her cheeks. Only she's a nearly 40 year old woman and it's just embarassing.

[ShadowMaat]

Makes me wish there were a few women on the permanent writing staff. Every time TPTB tried to get away with slop like that they could smack 'em in the head.

[bcmilco]

Hey, Welcome!

Do you think that Adam Baldwin (Colonel Dave Dixon in Heroes, Part I) might become a regular as the next leader of SG-1?

Spoiler Space s8
















Acording to the spoilers for next season Sam is going to be a Lt. Col. and in charge of SG-1. So no I don't think there's much chance of Dixon being in charge of SG-1.

If he were to become a regular, it might help to keep some of the Jack-like humor in the show.

I think they may off load some of the snarky comments onto Daniel and Sam they seemed to have started to do that in season 7, but that's just my guess.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sam's character, but making SG-1 a three person team with Sam in charge would make the dynamics of the unit very different.

Yes, which will make it Sam's SG-1 as oposed to Jack's SG-1, so it will be interesting to see how the change is handled and what if any problems may arise

Jack's somewhat rash, military solutions were offset by Sam's and Daniel's scientific/diplomatic solutions. If Sam is elevated to command of the unit, that element of the stories would disappear.

It'll be different that's for sure, but I think it'll be good and it could lead to a lot of character development for Sam.

[the dancer of spaz]

Couldn't the reason be that people are objecting to the WAY her character is developing, not the mere fact of the development? You really believe she didn't show character development in the other seasons? Or, is emotion equated with character development? And, speaking of that Sam showed PLENTY of emotion, a healthy amount for a human being... And, sorry if this comes off *****y, but I frankly don't care how credible I sound to people. I call it like I see it. I try to present my arguments as well thought out (to the point of being verbose) as I can, but I can't do anything about people's perceptions and if they see me as a Sam hater, there's nothing I can do, and I won't change my arguments when they reflect exactly how I feel.

It's entirely possible. I'm aware of the fact that she has shown emotion before. I'm aware of the fact that Sam's not a robot. It's seven years, however. People DO change over time to some degree. I'm not saying that the route she's taken is flawless - I'm just not willing to go off the deep end (like some posters have) and bash the current route completely. Also: I'm not asking you to care about your credibility. Like you, I'm calling it as I see it. And I definitely can relate to you on the whole "Verbose" deal. I don't see any INDIVIDUALS as Sam haters, because that is ONE assumption (of many, believe it or not) that I will not make on my own, either based on my observations or otherwise.

I'm not sure I care for your generalizations and snap judgements, but if that's the way you see things then nothing I say is going to change your mind. I just wanted to get this down for the record.

Notice how I said "most" or "some?" I definitely was not speaking like 100% of fans believe this or that, and I DEFINITELY don't believe that my feelings on the subject are the God's honest truth. I know that there are people who have different feelings, different beliefs, etc., etc. Like EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS THREAD, I posted what I saw. Should I have done it in the way that I did? Apparently not, as people are just as touchy on this subject as they are on any of the character-related subjects that come up.

Secondly, "snap judgements" are a trend for some posters, though something away from which I have TRIED to stay.

Yes. I object to the snap judgement that anytime someone has something negative to say about the show now, it's because they don't like change.

Dude, I do NOT think that. And though that comment may not have been CLEARLY directed at my last post, it wasn't exactly the most timely for others either, eh? Look, I'm not here to anger people. I understand that differences of opinion are gonna happen. Anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be on the threads, frankly, but look at what you're saying (a hard thing to do, I know: LOOKING at what you're SAYING ): You're basically saying that you don't like the show that much, you hate the direction in which it's headed, but you're taking time out of your presumedly busy schedule to post about just how much you hate the show/characters/plot lines?

Is that honestly in hopes of getting TPTB to change their nine-month plan just to fit the plots into your (or anyone's, even my) desires of how the show SHOULD be? The show is what it is. Period. There's no turning back - even for season eight now. At least, that's the way it SHOULD be.

No, change is not always good. No, not liking direction does not mean you hate change, but again we're getting to the whole "What change is good change?" question. No one should even attempt to answer that, and I certainly am not trying to answer it. I guess my problem is when people get on these threads (you know, the threads for supposedly CURRENT fans) and talk about how bad the show is, how sucky a character suddenly is, how baseless the writing is. Granted, there are only a few of these people (as my tongue drips with sarcasm), and granted, sometimes I wonder where the HECK a show is going, but this fandom/forum is so big because the people on and off screen are doing SOMETHING right...

I apologize if anyone felt like they were included under "The Dancer of Spaz's Umbrella of Horrible Generalizations." And I mean that honestly and truly. That was not my intention, and I'll watch myself in the future. Again, everything I described in my previous post was based off of my own observations, not fact.

Hope I don't get ousted completely from this thread, as it apparently has started to get REALLY INTERESTING...

[Bagpuss]

Makes me wish there were a few women on the permanent writing staff. Every time TPTB tried to get away with slop like that they could smack 'em in the head.

Sorry,Shadow,but as far as I'm concerned,I don't think female writers would do any better,unless the PTB had the good sense to include your good self and Denise P,and several other excellent Fan-Fic authors as Show Story Consultants! Bit late for that,though,I suppose.

And I've just watched the local Porcine population doing an aerial display over
my town! Wow they're GOOD.Wonder who trained 'em?

[Bagpuss]

[QUOTE=the dancer of spaz.
Hope I don't get ousted completely from this thread, as it apparently has started to get REALLY INTERESTING... [/QUOTE]

Not half as "Interesting" as it'll get, once Dani347 discovers she's become a "Dude",methinks!!

Not taking your views lightly or trying to be snide,btw!There's room for everyone.I agree mostly with your POV, as I for one,am still a Show fan,and am still optimistic about Season 8 .

[Bagpuss]

Only she's a nearly 40 year old woman and it's just embarassing.

OK,not "dissing" your POV,you're just as entitled to that as any other poster!If you feel Sam has any Daddy issues or approval needs,fair enough!

I would like to point out though, that IMO,Sam's age has no relevance to her role on the team,and her fitness to lead.Nor should it be part of any criticism of RL women.

There's enough RL "Ageism".Let's not set back many years of positive growth as regards women's rights,by using Sam's age as an issue.If we were discussing any male,I'd say the same!

No personal attack on you or any other Poster intended.Honestly.It's just my POV!