Why Colonel Sheppard Should Not Be In Command ~The Pro-Sam Thread~

[Pegasus_SGA]

Where was I?

FallenII - the continution

Doesn't mean that John did right by bringing Chaya back and revealing priviliged information to her. There was no objective evidence to suggest that the Genii were being anything but honest about their intentions, i.e. posing a threat to Atlantis when they first met, either. But they did.

And Weir did right bringing the Wraith, Michael and the Ladon into Atlantis? You know there comes a time when you have to trust someone. Sheppard trusted her, it turns out his instincts (read: spidy sense) was correct... wasn't it?

People who are sneaky like that. This is why it's practice not to bring unknown people back to hidden secret bases, especially not to reveal how advanced technology works to them!


He went "beyond the necessary" and into "the Kirking territory". You do not hold diplomatic meetings by romancing the alien priestess. What if the priestess ended up wanting more? Like, say, marriage? If he refuses, there'd be a diplomatic scandal.

How was she sneaky, because she didn't reveal who she was right away? Do the Atlantis expedition when they go off world? And when did he show her how the control systems worked? Well, she was the spokesperson for her people, so would you rather he spoke to the 'monk' who knew diddly squat? Go straight to the source I say! So what if she wanted more? *snort* A diplomatic scandal? How on earth do you figure that one out, and hon, lets stick to what we know rather than hypothosising all the coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff? Yes?

Also, he had no way of knowing that she wasn't a Genii spy! You do not do what he did when doing it jeapordizes Atlantis!

Who wasn't a Gennii spy? Larrin? With that technology?

It does not matter who instigated what. If you agree on something without any doubt and without any coersion, you're as much guilty as the other party. You cannot claim "I was only cheating on you because they instigated it!", you agreed to as well.

John isn't some innocent guy who just has lots of women hitting on him and forcing themselves on him. He flirts back and then agrees on taking it further when they want to.

Yep, so what's wrong with flirting? I'm not sure what you mean or where you're going with the coersion thing.

Did he have no shame but to agree to banging her because she threw herself at him? Men who aren't governed by their penises would say "No" flatly. She just wanted his genes. Doesn't mean he has to agree. Especially not while he's a captive of a supposed despot who wants his genes to continue his rule. Not to mention that he didn't know where the rest of his team was. They could all be dead or fighting for survival for all he knew and he decided to pass the time by getting some Space Tail because he could.

How many men don't think about sex, or wouldn't think about it, if it was someone they fancied, or if they were throwing themselves at them? Show of hands here please. Don't be shy. I'm not Larrin, I don't bite. The thing is he didn't sleep with her. So what does that suggest?

It does not matter who started it when it comes to blame. Both parties are to blame, only the one who start it is to garner more blame. John, however, is not exempt of said blame.


An interview confirms that the script originally called for him to accept said advances. The writers obviously changed their minds, but that doesn't really make much difference. Their little MarySue tendencies are still evident in later episodes.


So she wasn't stalking him, you say? Despite her confirming it by saying that she'd been using her clairvoyant abilities to follow him wherever he went for months?

I never said his judgement was off regarding Larrin. He trusted her (after they worked together and supported each other) He thought they were on a mutual level of trust and it turns out they weren't. If you're asking me If I think he shouldn't have kissed her in that sort of situation, the answer is yes. He should have waited until they got to his cell... at least there was a bed there. However Shep did not kirk! Kirking suggests one motive, and I think that he had more things to concentraite on than having a quickie.

I hate to break it to you, hon, but Mary Sue's are perfect. Shep is not perfect. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, it's called being human.

Nope, that was her gift and it was something she used with everyone including the village, so nope not stalking. Do you want to get into the defination of staking to?

(It wouldn't fit into just one post, exceeded the 12000-character count)

TEER: Because I knew you were coming that night, and I knew where you would be in the field; and I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. (John looks shocked.) I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.

Cleraly indicates she's been saving herself for him.

Not necessarily and how is that Sheppard's fault, or that he shouldn't be a commander because she's been waiting for him? Did he ask her to? So she saved herself? What's your point? That this indicates stalkering? Because she had a vision that she'd be with someone who would help her and her people?

Actually, three. And the fact that he knew about his friends coming was just a small part of a big ball of wax. I'm currently going through the script and you seem to be right.

He still knew she was delusional and a stalker.

He giveth and he taketh away.

John didn't just have possible-sex twice and intended to have sex a third time in 3 years time (Chaya - Glowy Ascended "Sharing", Teer - Virgin for the Taking, Larrin - Space Leader With Dark Motives). If you're arguing that as long we don't see it, it's never ever happened, then I guess the expedition never goes to the bathroom, because I can't remember a single time where someone indicates they're going to the bathroom.

ooh 3 times in 3 years! What a tart! I'm not arguing that we didn't see it. I think he did have sex with her (Teer) Is the glowy thing sex then? Didn't Shep say it was better than sex? So ergo not sex?

I've never seen Elizabeth's quarters either or heard references to them, so she must have slept on the pier. I have never seen Daniel shower, so he must not do that.

And not a single character other than John has ever been indicated as getting some Space Tail or Tail At All on Atlantis. Rodney and Katie didn't get much out of their date according to later episodes and the spoilers tell us, well, something.

Sheppard has never said to anyone that he had sex with the 3 you stated, because that's not who he is. Likewise have we heard of Ronon, Weir, Teyla sleeping with anyone... Maybe they slept with LL! Isn't that what LL suggested in teh ep, that he bedded the women sometimes all at once? I'm just saying.

John, however, gets tons of action. The writers are obviously telling us that he's promiscuous. Or are you claiming that he's only gotten Space Tail twice, gotten offered once but rejected it and then intended to get some Space Tail a third time? Because if you are, then the same argument can be made that not a single member of the expedition other than John has had sex in over three years.

Tonnes of action? If 3 (if we're counting all of them is tonnes in 4 years) then sorry not slutty by my standards, yours however may differ.

I edited by original post, by the way. Any reference to him knowing his people were coming has been removed and I've added the part where his libido made him hope that she meant he was the one destined to take her virginity instead of the one destined to help them all Ascend.

thanks for that.

I just love your posts, because they always make me smile! Well, except when you don't agree with me, and then I want to thwack you! I'm not going to say anything other than:

DITTO!!!!

Seriously, you're saving me from RSI here, because I don't have to answer such posts, because you said what I was going to, only much better and in such an amusing and unique way! You are SOOOO CHEEKY! So, from now on, I'll designate you my official spokesperson and you can get RSI instead. I know, whump Shep not self and all. Hey, I had no idea Fallen was a secret Shep whumper! He's turned to the darkside!

hehehe well the fingers are whumped. Cheeky is much more fun than being serious. FAII may disagree. hehehe I never realised it to! We've converted him to the dark side. Who would have thought it!! next step agreeing to everything I say.

I'm going to be a minority here as it seems, but I do agree that some women are misused in SGA (or SG universe) and that Sheppard seems to be the male version of Mary Sue of SGA. This Shep!Whoring should cease. Period. I'm not interested in that. It doesn't develop his character any way and only puts him in the promiscuous category.

And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature.

Oooh we're on to Shep whoring now! Woohoo!

Definition of whore:
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English h?re; akin to Old Norse h?ra whore, h?rr adulterer, Latin carus dear — more at charity Date: before 12th century 1: a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman2: a male who engages in sexual acts for money3: a venal or unscrupulous person

*reads the defiition*

Hmmmmmmm I think not!! Unless you'd like to disagree? Mocking? In what way was I mocking? Because I feel it's a ridiculous topic that has no basis? And have provided my reasonings? Okay if that's mocking, then i'll hold my hand up and say, I know it and I love it!

ITA with Dana.

Also apparently it's totally fine to make fun of certain people but when it comes to others, oh noes, they wll have your head off.

FallenAngelII I agree Shep is a h0re but I'd prefer Cadwell to be in command.

Actually Fallen and I are debating... surprisingly that's what the forum is for, if you disagree, fine. But if you look at the title of the thread it does say, "Why Colonel Sheppard should not be in command" So wouldn't that suggest that people coming in would give their reasonings? Which I did, so because I disagree with Fallen i'm biting his head off? Silly me, I thought the whole idea of debating was just that coming at things from two different points of view. *looks up at RP's post* At least I gave my opinions and the point of your post was to agree shep was a whore and that's it? No he's a whore because... ?

[stclare]

On the Sanctuary front, the only thing that i felt was wrong of Sheppered was that he seemed to refuse to listen to Rodneys concerns, but then so did Weir. there a team hes there leader i think it showed a lack of trust in Rodneys abilitys. i dont know why the writters played it that way. Carter listened to Keller about her concerns in DG would sheppered have if there roles were reversed or is it just a pretty face thats able to sway Shep to a certain path?

i dont like the inconsistencys i see in shep but maybe thats just me being over sensitive

[PG15]

My... behavior? You mean the expression of said opinion? Because that's really all I've been doing here. And while some of my points were faulty (like the point where I thought Teer told John the others were coming before he slept with her), you have yet to provide any real arguments to counter the majority of them (in my opinion).

And at least I don't mock your opinions.

Well, I haven't tried to seriously counter any of your "arguments" because I think using that much effort in this particular thread is a horrible waste of...effort. Besides, a lot of other people are doing just fine without me.

And it does not surprise me one bit that you can't tell the difference between mocking someone's opinion and mocking how they express said opinion. After all, if you did, your posts would be vastly different.

[Agent_Dark]

sif delete teh picture of alf. it was highly appropriate to this thread.

[Linzi]

sif delete teh picture of alf. it was highly appropriate to this thread.

It made me chuckle!

[Mitchell82]

Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

*yawn* Your constant griping is putting me to sleep because it's nothing new. YOu are finding anything you can to bash this show and coming very close to the "t" word.

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

Really? Your posts seem to indicate otherwise.

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

To have pure hatred to a fictional character brings one word to mind. Sad. And I have seen your newest gripe thread and wholy disagree with you.

Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".

Uh sorry you have this backwards. Rodney was the one that was being an ass the entire ep and one of my least fav Rodney eps I try to ingore him in that one. Chaya wasn't lying nor was she untrustworthy she was an Ancient who was punished for helping her people. SHE fell in love with him. She was hiding her true nature but not lying as you suggest. I do not see your point of view on this one at all.

Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more).

Ok I do agree that was a bit extreme and while the ep isn't the best of season 2 it is not that bad. As to the showtime comment that makes absolutly no sense as there was ONE instance of nudity.

Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess.

So by your pov it's wrong for him to have sex once in a while? Who cares if they did or not the thing here is, it was a setup for them to control the planet for generations to come with his superior genes. So yes I would defend him.

Exhibit C - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best. Not to mention the fact that the minute she says "You're the one", he not only assumed but also hoped that she meant "The one to take my virginity/The one I will spend the rest of my life with". And he knew he probably wouldn't spend the rest of her life with her because Ascension's just not his thing, but he hoped that's what she meant because then he'd get some Space Tail (after which he'd abandon her and go back to Atlantis). Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.

You do realize the more you go on the less your statement that you don't hate Shep looses credibility right? First they admited that Epiphany didn't turn out as they wanted, personally I loved it. So you also know what he was thinking huh? Gee wish I was telepathic like you. They had a deep conection to each other and whether or not they had sex is a moot point. I really don't see where you get this bull from because they never showed nor mentioned or insinuated that they had sex.

While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

Really? COuld have fooled me.

Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

First we don't know that he has had sex with anyone in the entire series. There is a remote possibility that he did in Tower but as I said remote. I see you put amicable circumstances however your point is he is the only character who has made out with someone. Well I disagree. Rodney made out with Katie in Duet not to mention Carson. And Wier has been shown kissing Simon, and Mike in SUnday. Still don't see your point.

And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.

Nope sorry you are as I completly disagree.

And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

She led him on and he regretted it so sorry don't agree.

And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.

SO I guess you've never been taken off guard by someone? *geesh*

And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

I'm trying to [i]keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.

Spoiler:

The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"

*yawn*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oh sorry fell asleep. Sory this whining is old,tiresome and anoying.

[Agent_Dark]

coming very close to the "t" word.

"Terrorist"?

[Mattathias2.0]

To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Males tend to have almost twice as many mates (lovers, boyfriends, husbands, w/e) than females.

Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

Weir was in command before Carter, and during John's brief tenure in command, no shannigans happened (the end of Lifeline, Ellis was in command).

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

...

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

Pure hatred? I don't hate anybody or anything, and I don't bother feeling hate for fictional characters.

Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".

Actually, I think Chaya was one of the better ones being Ascended and all. Not to mention she admitted she was posing as the Priestess so her people would accept her (because they did not know she was an ascended being). As far as I know, there is no account that Chaya and Shep did anything bad though.

Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower"...

I have no response. Too long and the grammar ("Space Slut", "Suckfest") is not worth a decent response.

While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

I thought it was suppose to be comedic.

Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

Wrong. There is Rodney/Cadman & Carson, Rodney & Katie Brown, and Weir & the guy in Sunday.

And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.

Beyond the Sheppard sexy girl thing, I thought the episode was quite good. Again, with the Grammar ("Suckfest").

And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

I think the entire audience was probably thinking the same thing. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be in command though.

And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.

...

Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.

Confused.

And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

Actually, I do think they trust each other, but she has to look out for her people.

This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

...

At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Petrified? A bit dramatic, aren't we?

Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

Not worth a response.

I'm trying to [i]keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.

Spoiler:

The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"

So all in all, completely disagree with almost everything whether based on real facts, or entertainment purposes. And I find your use of "Suckfest" and other terms very non-civilized in discussion. The insults to Sheppard and the show also do not help your case as far as I am concerned.

[morjana]

And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature.

If we were debating the the topic of, let's say, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, then everyone's opinion would be just that -- their opinion, and worthy of discussion and respect.

HOWEVER, the topic that FAII has raised is, quite frankly, pure prejudice and bias, towards heterosexuals.

If, instead, FAII, had posted a topic bashing gays, would you be defending FAII's opinion as well?

We should at all realize by now that our sexuality is the result of many factors, but the number one factor is our DNA/gene coding.

The human race has had 10,000 years + of civilization/culture to allow us to ATTEMPT to control our basic instincts, but they're still there.

Also, FAII should practice tolerance.

As long as there are two consenting adults involved; and as long as children, animals, the recently deceased (of any species), and coercion (rape/extortion/blackmail/) are NOT involved, then what those two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their own business.

AND...being a minority in ANYTHING does NOT give the minority any mulligans in common courtesy.

Morjana

[Elinor]

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers.

Yikes! Pure hatred is a very deep, intense amount of energy to waste on a 'pretend' character!

Anyhoo...what was the title of this thread again? Oh yeah, why Cl. Sheppy shouldn't be in command. I like him just where he is and I have no problems with his behaviour at all. Well...apart from the fact that he won't take his shirt off and could be whumped a bit more!

[FallenAngelII]

Because it's not an accurate definition, you can't call a man a slut! Check the dictionary definition. If you want to still maintain that he's a slut, then your argument is flawed from the onset. Why would anyone go around saying that they are a slut and they sleep around. Sex is between two people, and not something that should be broadcast throughout the galaxy, so sorry, that may be my very prudish view, but who's business it it who you sleep with? So if Shep went round saying he bedded everything that moved, would that reinforce your argument, or alleviate the feelings you currently have about him and his 'slut status'?

John denies been someone who sleeps around or at least who flirts with anything female and mildly attractive on pretty much every other episode. Every single time Rodney accuses him of Kirkism, he denies it, vehemently.

Check any modern dictionary. We've come far in equality and the word "Slut" (sometimes "Manslut") can now be used even for men. No, they are not "Players". It's not a status symbol. They are sluts.

It would be misogyny to consider women who sleep around sluts and men who do the same players.

When has someone asked him if he was promiscuous? Do you go aroud telling all your friends/acquantances who you've slept with? It's considered bad form, and a tad tacky to be honest, and not very mature if you ask me. So the fact that he's actually not said anything just reinforces the fact of how mature he is, doesn't it? So he rolls his eyes at Rodney calling him Kirk... doesn't that eye roll in itself suggest something? Maybe a 'whatever'? He lied about sleeping with someone? OH how dare he keep something like that private. You mean he didn't even go into details about what positions he liked, or the fact that she took advantage after he let his guard down? Shame on him, didn't his mother ever teach him to share?

He is the second in command of Atlantis. When debriefing, he's got an obligation to include every single detail, even those that would embarass him, especially those. His weak points must be exposed so everyone else know.

What about next time some sexy alien chick decides to flirt her way to grab his gun or whatever? If Teyla knew about the Travelers-incident, she'd politely step in and trip said alien chick or something.

Professionals do not omit important facts in debriefings because they're embarassing.

It's not my double standards hon, it's the dictionary's take it up with them.

Dictionary.com/Wikipedia. Check them before speaking, "hon".

Wikipedia is not the be all and end all. Why not check the Oxford dictionary for the proper definition.. oh and shall I just quote from Dictionary. com since you won't?

(American Heritage Dictionary) * A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

Also, see manslut. It's common daily English.

Actually no, the term slut is derogatory female term. Hell if a women sleeps around she's called a slut, if a man does it, he's a stud! That's the difference.

Is that your actual opinion?

So, your being involved with the anti Sam thread was what? Bad judgement?

I'm still anti-Sam. There is, however, now, one redeeming factor about her being on Atlantis.

Right, and if he didn't care about the two men who were about to be radiated he would have got the Aurora class. I personally think it's a disgracefull quality helping someone out when they've been near death, and expecting a bit of trust! Absolutely dispicable. The man should be shot for trying to do that... and you'd have preffered him to do what? Leave her there on the ground and locked her in... sorry that's not his style and being a 'fan of Sheppard's' as you said you were. you'd know that.

I think it was much more of a "I don't wanna die"-moment. He didn't wanna die of radiation as well. After all, these were men who had tortured him and threatened to kill him. They were basically enemy combatants.

I would have preferred for him to help her up and then pushed her away when she leaned in to make-out as it was obviously not the right time and place to do it.

Sheer dumb luck? So was it also sheer dumb luck when he got the Athosians on board to? Have you watched the ep again? Did you not see that they were in fact 'working together' when she shot him?

Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.

He also trusted Teyla on their first meeting and brought the Athosians back... so, was that the wrong choice?

Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.

*giggles* A little nookie! hehehe nice to know the language has been toned down. Actually as I said before he rejected her advances.

* Original script had him confirm that he accepted
* Filmed, but cut scene had him reject her

The writers obviously thought twice about how it should go. That they even considered having him accept is inexcusable.

One kiss = making out? Right okay then? As I said to you before, us women have wonderful feminine wiles that can make a fair few men crumble to their knees. What can I say, it's a gift!

You must have been watching the wrong episode. It was not just one chaste peck. Open mouths, repeated kissing, leaning of heads, possible tounges, wet, sloppy sounds.

They had just initiated a make-out session and in John's mind, he was getting some tail. The make-out session ended abruptly because Larrin was pretty fast on grabbing the stunner.

Right, so in CG, the Siege, The Return, Sateda, The Hive, shall I continue? In those eps he allowed his libido to make command decisions? That is what you're saying isn't it?

His libido has clouded his judgement countless times. Counting how many times it didn't is like trying to defend a killer for "all those people he didn't kill".

Oh no, I have no problem saying if he's wrong or out of line. So, once more your assumption of me and what I like has been shot down in flames, would you like to try again?

Then why are you so vehemently defending his actions in "Travelers". He obviously make a mistake and paid for it.

You're asking me if i'm male when I told you earlier that I had big boobs? Well, I suppose men can have big boobs. *gets a mirror and checks her plumbing* Nope I can definately say without a shadow of a doubt i'm female. Close FAII, but no cigar!

Yes, because I obviously put to mind everything every single person on this forum says about themselves.

So you're concerns are that his 'bedding' would result in the destruction of Atlantis... from one woman? Don't you think he'd rather die himself than allow that to happen? There's this little thing called integrity, ya know!

It's not that he'd intentionally let Atlantis be destroyed. But his libido might cloud his judgement, making him go for that Alien Tail at the wrong moments, allowing Atlantis in turn to be destroyed because he was too busy getting tail. This episode proves that.

He did put his trust in her, they were working together, what would that suggest to you? I'm not interested in Kathy Griffin tbh, her thoughts and feelings have got nothing to do with this debate.

Yes, and he was wrong, was he not?

Spidey senses are 'gut feelings' when you work in certain situations, you rely on your gut, that's what i'm talking about. Most of the time you're right, but it's not falliable. However, there comes a point where trust comes into play. And sometimes it takes the braver person to make that first move and lower your guard as you never know where it can lead. In this case it may have lead to a tentative alliance... so how is that a bad thing?

It might have lead to a tentative alliance?! Oh, yes. I want an alliance with someone so I'll make out with them and then maybe have sex with them. That's the perfect way to start an alliance!

No, he wanted some tail and he thought she was cool and on board. Obviously his gut was wrong.

Again with the stalker stuff! Because she had visions she was a stalker? Little girl? Hardly! So he slept with her, being with her for 6 months is not exactly jumping into bed with the first woman he set eyes on.

She said that she'd been following him with her mind. She didn't randomly get hit with visions of him. Every single time he left the cloister, she used her powers to stalk him.

She was delusional and he knew it. In her mind, he'd spend eternity with her as an Ascended being and he knew fully well that would never happen (because he knows himself best), yet he lead her on because he wanted sex.

[FallenAngelII]

Here we see Weir came up with the idea of the tour on her own and is annoyed only that Sheppard had the same idea and promised it to Chaya before consulting her.

It does not matter if Elizabeth came up with the idea as well. John, blinded by his attraction for Chaya (literally at first sight), came up with the idea that she should come to Atlantis and receive a full tour (including important information that would be dangerous in enemy hands) without consulting anyone, not even Elizabeth.

Here Mckay offers to help show her advanced systems and Sheppard walks off without him not because he wants to be alone with her, but because Mckay was shooting off his mouth to her on the planet and Sheppard had to order him back to the jumper before he blew it.

He declined anyone following them and walked around alone with Chaya for most of her stay on Atlantis because he wanted to flirt some more. Smart people would at least have brought a marine or two for security. I doubt even diplomatic leaders are allowed to wander around alone with a single escort who's too smitten to react if they decided to drop-kick them and grab their weapon.

Here Mckay references the Genii situation to Weir and despite it she still allows Chaya to tour the city. She of course would've been aware that Sheppard was showing her the city's systems. You have to realize how close they were to the Wraith attack at this point and how they really thought they would lose the city and had to find some place to escape to. Gaining her trust was a priority over protecting a doomed city.

Why would she? John hadn't consulted with anyone or told anyone of his intentions before.

This episode came two episodes before "The Brotherhood", which they found out the Wraith were coming, so that's no reason as well.

Here Sheppard tells Telya that Weir wanted Chaya to see everything and Telya, realizing Sheppard likes her, calls him on how showing her a view of the city at night is doing what Weir wanted.

See everything, not hear about what systems do what. Or about where they're from, who woke up the Wraith, how they're stuck in this galaxy. Dangerous information should it ever reach the Wraith, Genii or any of their hidden enemies.

Here Weir is defending Chaya despite all the evidence Mckay is building against her (notice it's not Sheppard who is blinding doing so - Sheppard yells at Mckay later on but only because Mckay is handling it in his usual loud mouth manner).

John would not have yelled at Rodney if he hadn't been too infatuated to see reason, to see that there was something suspicious with this woman (Carson pointed out that she was too healthy).

What Elizabeth did as well has no bearing on John's behaviour. It's like saying "Well, someone else also killed someone today, so it's OK if I do so as well". They were both wrong.

*Chaya had an X-ray so there was no way she could've been hiding a weapon and they likely patted her down before then.
*Sheppard telling her about Earth wasn't privilaged. The Wraith already knew about it so it didn't matter who he told at this point.
*Him telling her that they could not return to Earth was an important part of getting her to realize just how badly they would've needed her sanctuary.

* She could've hidden the weapon and drawn it the minute they walked into Atlantis. John trusted her completely and had her accompany them even before consulting with Elizabeth (although she must've given them permission)
* That the Wraith knew does not mean that everyone else in the Pegasus galaxy knew. The Genii finding this out? They'd redouble their efforts to take over Atlantis and then gating all of their people to Earth.
* Nonetheless was that important information that would be dangerous in the hands of their enemies

[FallenAngelII]

And Weir did right bringing the Wraith, Michael and the Ladon into Atlantis? You know there comes a time when you have to trust someone. Sheppard trusted her, it turns out his instincts (read: spidy sense) was correct... wasn't it?

As you actually blaming Elizabeth for "Alliance"? They had no choice. It was either "ally" themselves or have every single hive ship in the galaxy come and blow them up. It wasn't Elizabeth's decision to make. Her decision was "choose the least of two evils". Ladon was under strict guard his entire stay. If he'd moved a muscle the wrong way, he'd be toast. He didn't get a full tour of Atlantis complete with what systems do what or received priviliged information nor did Elizabeth skip off on a one-on-one with him without any guards around.

Sheppard's instincts were wrong. She was lying about pretty much everything. It doesn't matter if her lies were harmless. John had been so blinded he trusted everything she said, but she was lying the entire time. About who she were, about Athar, about how the "device" works, why she came with them, about her maybe changing her mind. Pretty much everything she'd told him were lies. Harmless (to the Atlantis expedition) lies, but lies nonetheless.

Now she'd been some evil mastermind planning to take over Atlantis, John would've been equally blinded and trusted everything she'd said. The problem is not that she lied and that her lies were harmless. The problem was how John allowed his libido to overtake all of his other senses and trusted her so completely.

How was she sneaky, because she didn't reveal who she was right away? Do the Atlantis expedition when they go off world? And when did he show her how the control systems worked? Well, she was the spokesperson for her people, so would you rather he spoke to the 'monk' who knew diddly squat? Go straight to the source I say! So what if she wanted more? *snort* A diplomatic scandal? How on earth do you figure that one out, and hon, lets stick to what we know rather than hypothosising all the coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff? Yes?

If you strike up a relationship with an Alien Priestess and make out with her and then dump her (because there was no way she was coming to Atlantis to stay and John wouldn't relocate to Proculus), a lot of locals would take offense on him defiling their priestess and then running off.

She was sneaky because she lied about pretty much everything. See above.

Yep, so what's wrong with flirting? I'm not sure what you mean or where you're going with the coersion thing.

It's inappropriate for a man of his age and position to constantly be doing so when it can get them into trouble. Flirt with the wrong person, get your team thrown into jail. Flirt and Kirk at the wrong times, your team gets killed while you're getting Tail. It hasn't happened yet, but John keeps putting himself in positions where it could.

How many men don't think about sex, or wouldn't think about it, if it was someone they fancied, or if they were throwing themselves at them? Show of hands here please. Don't be shy. I'm not Larrin, I don't bite. The thing is he didn't sleep with her. So what does that suggest?

That the writers got cold feet and rewrote the episode? Men think about sex, so do women. I think about sex. I like sex. But as the military commander of Atlantis, I wouldn't go around thinking about it while on missions or in hostile situations where I might die at any time.

I never said his judgement was off regarding Larrin. He trusted her (after they worked together and supported each other) He thought they were on a mutual level of trust and it turns out they weren't. If you're asking me If I think he shouldn't have kissed her in that sort of situation, the answer is yes. He should have waited until they got to his cell... at least there was a bed there. However Shep did not kirk! Kirking suggests one motive, and I think that he had more things to concentraite on than having a quickie.

I'm strictly going by the Rodney-definition of Kirking. But that's not even the important thing here. John's lapse in judgement cost the Atlantis expedition an Aurora-class ship.

I hate to break it to you, hon, but Mary Sue's are perfect. Shep is not perfect. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, it's called being human.

"The definition today has widened considerably to encompass most clichés found in fiction"

Nope, that was her gift and it was something she used with everyone including the village, so nope not stalking. Do you want to get into the defination of staking to?

When did she say that she telepathically followed every single villager every single day?

"TEER: I knew. (John looks at her.) I was following your journey in my mind. I was with you since you left the Cloister."

Not necessarily and how is that Sheppard's fault, or that he shouldn't be a commander because she's been waiting for him? Did he ask her to? So she saved herself? What's your point? That this indicates stalkering? Because she had a vision that she'd be with someone who would help her and her people?

She said the following about her visions:
* John was the one to take her virginity (something John's dirty mind hoped for)
* John was the one who would help them Ascend
* John would Ascend with them and spend eternity with her

She's clearly delusional here. She's not just looking for a little sex with the man she's been waiting for. She thinks he's destined to spend eternity with her. She thinks he'd gonna ascend with them.

John knows himself best so he knows he would never Ascend. Yet he takes advantage of her delusion and has sex with her because it felt good, intending very much on leaving her first chance he got, getting her hopes up.

Up until the very end, she thought he'd Ascend with her.

Tonnes of action? If 3 (if we're counting all of them is tonnes in 4 years) then sorry not slutty by my standards, yours however may differ.

He's the only one we see get action. The writers are trying to make him look like a stud.

[FallenAngelII]

*yawn* Your constant griping is putting me to sleep because it's nothing new. YOu are finding anything you can to bash this show and coming very close to the "t" word.

Then don't read it. I do not make threads to praise great parts of the show. No good discussion ever comes out of 29 post praising how well the expedition handled a certain situation. I create threads where meaningful discussion will arise.

Uh sorry you have this backwards. Rodney was the one that was being an ass the entire ep and one of my least fav Rodney eps I try to ingore him in that one. Chaya wasn't lying nor was she untrustworthy she was an Ancient who was punished for helping her people. SHE fell in love with him. She was hiding her true nature but not lying as you suggest. I do not see your point of view on this one at all.

She was untrustworthy and lying. Everything she'd told the expedition about herself and Athar were lies. She was untrustworthy because she was too healthy, as Carson pointed out.

She didn't fall in love with him. She was infatuated, just like John was infatuated with her... and trusted every single one of her lies.

Ok I do agree that was a bit extreme and while the ep isn't the best of season 2 it is not that bad. As to the showtime comment that makes absolutly no sense as there was ONE instance of nudity.

If this was Showtime, the nudity would've been frontal.

So by your pov it's wrong for him to have sex once in a while? Who cares if they did or not the thing here is, it was a setup for them to control the planet for generations to come with his superior genes. So yes I would defend him.

He should've said flat no. And we should've seen it instead of leaving it ambiguous.

You do realize the more you go on the less your statement that you don't hate Shep looses credibility right? First they admited that Epiphany didn't turn out as they wanted, personally I loved it. So you also know what he was thinking huh? Gee wish I was telepathic like you. They had a deep conection to each other and whether or not they had sex is a moot point. I really don't see where you get this bull from because they never showed nor mentioned or insinuated that they had sex.

"They had a deep connection with each other"? O... K... They didn't insinuate they had sex?

(Not direct quotes)
Teer: I've seen in my visions you're the One.
John: The one what?
Teer: The one who leads us to Ascension.
John: Oh, I'd hoped you meant something else.
Teer: I saw that too. Tonight.
John: *smiles*

Yah... sooooo not having sex.

First we don't know that he has had sex with anyone in the entire series. There is a remote possibility that he did in Tower but as I said remote. I see you put amicable circumstances however your point is he is the only character who has made out with someone. Well I disagree. Rodney made out with Katie in Duet not to mention Carson. And Wier has been shown kissing Simon, and Mike in SUnday. Still don't see your point.

Rewatch Epiphany. Elizabeth gave Mike a chaste kiss. Elizabeth was also in a devoted relationship with Simon, so it wasn't some kind of slutty behaviour.

Rodney did not make out with Katie or Carson. One close-mouthed kiss is not making out, although the one with Katie lasted pretty long. Those were both Cadman forcing Rodney's body to do her bidding.

SO I guess you've never been taken off guard by someone? *geesh*

A smart man would not have put himself in that position. John did wrong and paid for it because he let his libido and dirty mind get the best of him, despite her being a ruthless killer (should the need arise).

[FallenAngelII]

Males tend to have almost twice as many mates (lovers, boyfriends, husbands, w/e) than females.

Yeah... like this has anything to do with anything. There are many other males on Atlantis.

Weir was in command before Carter, and during John's brief tenure in command, no shannigans happened (the end of Lifeline, Ellis was in command).

We don't know for sure. And just because nothing happened doesn't mean John might not endanger himself and the expedition yet again sometime in the future because he's chasing Alien Tail.

Actually, I think Chaya was one of the better ones being Ascended and all. Not to mention she admitted she was posing as the Priestess so her people would accept her (because they did not know she was an ascended being). As far as I know, there is no account that Chaya and Shep did anything bad though.

She only admitted this after she had revealed herself as an Ascended being to John. There was no point in lying anymore.

Before that, she'd lied to John about everything and John had believed her.

Wrong. There is Rodney/Cadman & Carson, Rodney & Katie Brown, and Weir & the guy in Sunday.

Not a single instance was a make-out session.

Beyond the Sheppard sexy girl thing, I thought the episode was quite good. Again, with the Grammar ("Suckfest").

The episode went downhill from the first double entendre/sexual innuendo and I just knew by then that the episode would suck. But it didn't become a Suckfest 'til they made out.

I think the entire audience was probably thinking the same thing. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be in command though.

Oh really? Note all of the posts defending him.

Actually, I do think they trust each other, but she has to look out for her people.

He trusted her. She betrayed him. His trust was clearly misplaced.

So all in all, completely disagree with almost everything whether based on real facts, or entertainment purposes. And I find your use of "Suckfest" and other terms very non-civilized in discussion. The insults to Sheppard and the show also do not help your case as far as I am concerned.

"Suckfest" is a reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Look it up.

"Non-civilized"? I am not insulting you or any user on Gateworld nor am I directly insulting the writers' characters. I'm pointing out character flaws and insulting a fictional character. If you're too blind in your love for said character to have a meaningful discussion, then that's your choice.