Why Colonel Sheppard Should Not Be In Command ~The Pro-Sam Thread~

[FallenAngelII]

HOWEVER, the topic that FAII has raised is, quite frankly, pure prejudice and bias, towards heterosexuals.

Prejudiced towards heterosexuals you say? I wouldn't care less if John was gay and did the same thing with guys. I don't watch Torchwood because from what I hear, Jack Harkness is doing the same thing, only worse, with both genders.

If, instead, FAII, had posted a topic bashing gays, would you be defending FAII's opinion as well?

Where did I bash heterosexuality? I am, however, condemning letting your libido get the best out of you at the wrong times. I couldn't care less if John had little Kirk-moments (if they were limited) durings times where there wasn't impending danger.

As long as there are two consenting adults involved; and as long as children, animals, the recently deceased (of any species), and coercion (rape/extortion/blackmail/) are NOT involved, then what those two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their own business.

There are circumstances. Delusional Teer, Lying Chaya, Betraying Larrin, Gene-hungry Maara.

[talyn2k1]

This thread seems to be getting a bit waylaid so I shall attempt to get it back on track.

imho, John and any other character on Atlantis can cop off with whatever aliens they like as long as it does not interfere with their duties.
In SG-1, both Jack and Daniel had their fair share of tail in the first few seasons and they generally ended up putting their lives in danger. This was generally through women they originally believed to be trustworthy betraying them, which imho they can't be blamed for.

Now I can't speak for any of the other episodes where Shep got lucky as they tend to be real yawners from my perspective, but in Travellers Shep had been taken hostage by a group of people commanded by a woman who is reputed to throw people out of airlocks and repeatedly betrays him in the course of a day or two, and he STILL lets down all his defenses for a quick snog, thus allowing her to get his weapon and take back the Ancient Warship that he has just stolen from them.

When Daniel and Jack got in trouble because of their women it was generally unexpected circumstances (I may be wrong, I`m just working off the top of my head here) but Shep clearly couldn't trust her and was a complete fool to drop his guard so she could steal his weapon.

I'm not against characters copping off with random aliens, honestly I couldn't really care less about anything remotely resembling shipping/slashing, etc. But it just makes the character look stupid when he lets his guard down for a quick snog with a clearly untrustworthy woman and then ends up getting shot.

If PTB want Shep to get lucky on occasion, that's fine. But atleast make sure its not his fault when he gets double-crossed.

[Xaeden]

Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.

Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.

For a better example watch Common Ground. He bonded a bit with the Wraith who fed on him and he helped him out a little more than he had to in the escape. This was the same situation - He thought he bonded with Lirran in saving her life and perhaps gained a new ally despite what happened previously. It had nothing to do with her being female, he's just a trusting kind of guy. The only difference between those two situations is that the Wraith was nice enough to return the favor right away where as Lirran needed a little bit of convincing.

It does not matter if Elizabeth came up with the idea as well. John, blinded by his attraction for Chaya (literally at first sight), came up with the idea that she should come to Atlantis and receive a full tour (including important information that would be dangerous in enemy hands) without consulting anyone, not even Elizabeth.

There isn't a shred of evidence that he liked Chaya from the start. His interest in her developed as they spent time in Atlantis, but like Weir he knew what the importance of that sanctuary meant to them and so he tried to do what was best for his people. As for not consulting anyone you have to realize that this was season 1 where he and Weir did not yet see eye to eye on who should make what decisions. In fact, this was right after Hot Zone so that little quip where Weir said; "Of course he did," in response to him promising to give Chaya a tour before consulting her was a great way to show that there may have still been some tension between them despite the agreement they had at the end of the episode (change does not happen overnight).

He declined anyone following them and walked around alone with Chaya for most of her stay on Atlantis because he wanted to flirt some more. Smart people would at least have brought a marine or two for security. I doubt even diplomatic leaders are allowed to wander around alone with a single escort who's too smitten to react if they decided to drop-kick them and grab their weapon.

Weir did the same thing - Mckay wanted her to keep an extra eye on her and she ignored him (again you have to realize this was season 1 where Mckay wasn't taken as seriously). Was she smitten with Chaya as well or was she trying to not show their guest that she mistrusted her and thus give her cause to mistrust them?

Why would she? John hadn't consulted with anyone or told anyone of his intentions before.

This episode came two episodes before "The Brotherhood", which they found out the Wraith were coming, so that's no reason as well.

They found out the Wraith were coming in Poisoning the Well, they just didn't know exactly when. Steve specifically told them that all their Hives woke up and were comming for them once they revisited their feeding grounds and got their strength back. Watch Sanctuary again and you'll see the references to them knowing they were doomed if they didn't do something (they needed a ZPM or at the least a planet to escape to since they couldn't get back to Earth).

See everything, not hear about what systems do what. Or about where they're from, who woke up the Wraith, how they're stuck in this galaxy. Dangerous information should it ever reach the Wraith, Genii or any of their hidden enemies.

You really think Weir wouldn't have been made aware of what Sheppard was doing and complained if she thought he was stepping over the line? And for the record Sg-1 showed Linea (the destroyer of worlds) how their computers worked and it turned out badly for them. Which you may use as all the more reason to not trust other people, but I use it as a reason to show the trusting nature of many of the people in the Stargate program that has nothing do with with romantic feelings. There are times when this works in their favor and there are times where it does not. In this case it seemed worth the risk. Bad idea or not though, Sheppard did not do it because of any relationship that later developed no more than Mckay was willing to show her the advanced systems or Weir allowed it.

John would not have yelled at Rodney if he hadn't been too infatuated to see reason, to see that there was something suspicious with this woman (Carson pointed out that she was too healthy).

What Elizabeth did as well has no bearing on John's behaviour. It's like saying "Well, someone else also killed someone today, so it's OK if I do so as well". They were both wrong.

No, John would not have yelled at Mckay if Mckay handled the situation better. He even said himself he was not a sensitive person in situations like that and kept flapping his mouth off more so. He started this kind of behavior back on the planet right in front of her and almost ruined any chances they had with getting her help. He had an issue with crossing the line and thus Sheppard was telling him to "Not go there." Mind you though, Mckay's ramblings to Sheppard came after the tour and was at the point where Weir was trying to trade their spiritual knowledge with her so the time Sheppard spent with her at this point was totally personal.

As for what Weir did, it most certainly does. You keep going on about how Sheppard did something wrong and yet there is no evidence that he made any decisions differently than Weir. From my perspective he did everything he did for his people and while he was spending time with her they developed a relationship. That was after he led her around and showed her Atlantis' systems. Your only excuse for why that might not be the case was because that was seemingly dangerous, but Weir had no problem with any of it either and last I checked she wasn't in love with Chaya. And btw, he really liked her - He wasn't just trying to sleep with her and move on.

* She could've hidden the weapon and drawn it the minute they walked into Atlantis. John trusted her completely and had her accompany them even before consulting with Elizabeth (although she must've given them permission)

You realize that marines run to the gate whenever the wormhole activates, right?

* That the Wraith knew does not mean that everyone else in the Pegasus galaxy knew. The Genii finding this out? They'd redouble their efforts to take over Atlantis and then gating all of their people to Earth.

That makes no sense. The Genii do not have a power source to gate them to Earth nor do they know that they need one and they have no understanding of an 8 symbol address. More so why would they care to gate them back? Because they would get trapped there and be out of their way (like they wouldn't be out of their way just as easily if they were killed)? Sheppard never said they couldn't get reinforcements from Earth, just that it was one way. And for the record Beckett was talking to her about what he knew happened to the Ancients before Sheppard said anything to her and he told her that some Ancients returned to Earth. You're going out on a bit of a limb here.

BECKETT: Well...some returned to Earth after the war with the Wraith. That much we know. But we also know that some of them ascended.

SHEPPARD: Well not simply. *head up some stairs* We knew going into it that it was probably going to be a one way trip...but we thought what we would find here would be worth the risk.

It gets better. Here's a quote from; The Storm...

KOLYA: You believe your people -- who are not even of this galaxy -- are closer to the Ancients than we are? Your arrogance is astounding. We will take this city, we will mount a defence, and we will win -- with or without your help, Doctor Weir.

Remind me again how knowing the name "Earth" (which cannot be found in any Ancient database since they had a different name for it) is any different than their enemy knowing that they are from another galaxy?

[FallenAngelII]

For a better example watch Common Ground. He bonded a bit with the Wraith who fed on him and he helped him out a little more than he had to in the escape. This was the same situation - He thought he bonded with Lirran in saving her life and perhaps gained a new ally despite what happened previously. It had nothing to do with her being female, he's just a trusting kind of guy. The only difference between those two situations is that the Wraith was nice enough to return the favor right away where as Lirran needed a little bit of convincing.

John is not the trusty kind of guy. He's quite suspicious. He just let his guard down.

The Wraith in "Common Ground" was desperate and really needed John. Larrin did not.

There isn't a shred of evidence that he liked Chaya from the start.

Rewatch the episode:
* He was "stunned" when he first saw her and her radiant beauty
* When she said she'd make some tea (or have someone do it, I can't remember), he said "I hoped you'd say that" with a "charming" little smile
* He was mightily annoyed with Rodney and told him to stay out of it so he could spend time alone with her. While Rodney can be quite whiney and rude, John doesn't tell him to stay away from someone. In fact, that's the only time John as far as to keep Rodney away at all costs... because he liked her.

His interest in her developed as they spent time in Atlantis, but like Weir he knew what the importance of that sanctuary meant to them and so he tried to do what was best for his people. As for not consulting anyone you have to realize that this was season 1 where he and Weir did not yet see eye to eye on who should make what decisions. In fact, this was right after Hot Zone so that little quip where Weir said; "Of course he did," in response to him promising to give Chaya a tour before consulting her was a great way to show that there may have still been some tension between them despite the agreement they had at the end of the episode (change does not happen overnight).

Still very poor judgement, especially after the fiascos with the Genii. And he liked her from the start. See the "stunned"-part.

Weir did the same thing - Mckay wanted her to keep an extra eye on her and she ignored him (again you have to realize this was season 1 where Mckay wasn't taken as seriously). Was she smitten with Chaya as well or was she trying to not show their guest that she mistrusted her and thus give her cause to mistrust them?

She wanted the technology. John was, however, smitten and took Chaya on a picnic. You cannot deny that.

They found out the Wraith were coming in Poisoning the Well, they just didn't know exactly when. Steve specifically told them that all their Hives woke up and were comming for them once they revisited their feeding grounds and got their strength back. Watch Sanctuary again and you'll see the references to them knowing they were doomed if they didn't do something (they needed a ZPM or at the least a planet to escape to since they couldn't get back to Earth).

Yes, John took her on a picnic and kissed her all in the name of securing a new home for them.

If push came to shove, they could've hid out on the Kid Planet for a while. It's not like they were out of options, they were just looking for a better one. To endanger the entire city by bringing in an unknown person who was obviously lying (what with the energy burst which had been established as "Not possibly a natural phenomena) and who was obviously hiding something (in Carson's words, she was "too healthy) and giving them a great tour of everything of the city including what consoles did what (alone with them) and telling them some highly classified information isn't exactly something you'd do normally, even under desperate circumstances and must I remind you again of the Genii. Obviously he wanted to spend time alone with her.

While she was most probably not a Genii spy, she could've been just as bad as the Genii, friendly at first but with a hidden agenda. John ignored Rodney's input without a second thought. Why? Not just because Rodney wasn't taken as seriously back then, but because he was obviously smitted (see stunned-part) and didn't want to think she was lying about everything.

You really think Weir wouldn't have been made aware of what Sheppard was doing and complained if she thought he was stepping over the line?

John was giving Chaya a tour of the city alone, without anyone else around. How the Hell was Elizabeth supposed to know exactly what John was and wasn't telling her?

And for the record Sg-1 showed Linea (the destroyer of worlds) how their computers worked and it turned out badly for them. Which you may use as all the more reason to not trust other people, but I use it as a reason to show the trusting nature of many of the people in the Stargate program that has nothing do with with romantic feelings.

That was years ago. And John should've read that file and known how badly it can end up with you show someone unknown around your facility and give them a full tour of everything. This just makes it even worse.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of others as well.

There are times when this works in their favor and there are times where it does not. In this case it seemed worth the risk. Bad idea or not though, Sheppard did not do it because of any relationship that later developed no more than Mckay was willing to show her the advanced systems or Weir allowed it.

Elizabeth and Rodney were prepared to go to great lengths for an alliance. John was just prepared to go even further and did. It's obvious he was smitten the moment he laid eyes on her (see beginning of episode). And it's obvious he did far more than strictly necessary.

Besides, Rodney was only prepared to give her the tour at the beginning but later became suspicious of her while John was taking her alone on one-on-one picnics and one-on-one tours of the city.

No, John would not have yelled at Mckay if Mckay handled the situation better. He even said himself he was not a sensitive person in situations like that and kept flapping his mouth off more so. He started this kind of behavior back on the planet right in front of her and almost ruined any chances they had with getting her help. He had an issue with crossing the line and thus Sheppard was telling him to "Not go there." Mind you though, Mckay's ramblings to Sheppard came after the tour and was at the point where Weir was trying to trade their spiritual knowledge with her so the time Sheppard spent with her at this point was totally personal.

It's all big ball of wax. And John knew about Rodney's suspicions all throughout the episode, but swallowed all of Chaya's lies without question and never questioned her. Also, must I repeat myself? Too much information, too thourough a tour and, most importantly, he was almost always alone with her. Had she been Larrian, she could've just overpowered him and stolen his gun and then where would we be with her holding John hostage?

As for what Weir did, it most certainly does. You keep going on about how Sheppard did something wrong and yet there is no evidence that he made any decisions differently than Weir. From my perspective he did everything he did for his people and while he was spending time with her they developed a relationship. That was after he led her around and showed her Atlantis' systems. Your only excuse for why that might not be the case was because that was seemingly dangerous, but Weir had no problem with any of it either and last I checked she wasn't in love with Chaya. And btw, he really liked her - He wasn't just trying to sleep with her and move on.

John did a whole lot more than Elizabeth was prepared to do. And you really think he would've abandoned his position for her and go back to Proculus to live with her? She's their High Priestess of Athar, so it's a given she couldn't possibly have moved to Atlantis.

You realize that marines run to the gate whenever the wormhole activates, right?

You realize that having John as a hostage is a powerful tool of negotiations, right?

That makes no sense. The Genii do not have a power source to gate them to Earth nor do they know that they need one and they have no understanding of an 8 symbol address. More so why would they care to gate them back? Because they would get trapped there and be out of their way (like they wouldn't be out of their way just as easily if they were killed)? Sheppard never said they couldn't get reinforcements from Earth, just that it was one way. And for the record Beckett was talking to her about what he knew happened to the Ancients before Sheppard said anything to her and he told her that some Ancients returned to Earth. You're going out on a bit of a limb here.

It's important information. Anyone knowing the Atlantis expedition cannot go back would know that if they were to disappear, they'd still be around somewhere in Pegasus and keep looking for them.

It's classified information and should not be shared with unknown people.

[I]BECKETT: Well...some returned to Earth after the war with the Wraith. That much we know. But we also know that some of them ascended.

Yes, she would've been able to make so much use of this information if she was an enemy.

Remind me again how knowing the name "Earth" (which cannot be found in any Ancient database since they had a different name for it) is any different than their enemy knowing that they are from another galaxy?

John had, earlier in the episode, told Chaya that they were new to the galaxy (he'd also explained what a galaxy was).

[Niteshadow]

I've made three threads in my entire life where the theme is complaining about John Sheppard. All three happened to spring out of the same episode.

then maybe you should not watch that epsidoe again....you seem to not like it.

I take it you're a heterosexual male and therefore very much appreciate John Sheppard showing off his Kirkness by yet again get some Space Tail (to the detriment of the expedition). I assure you that a lot of women (and non heterosexual men) do not appreciate said plotlines and misuse of women.

damn right i'm heterosexual i do like boobs.

would you be happier of there did have a gay character in the show that you could relate to. i think so of the probelms that people have with you is becuase there don't see your view point becuase there are heterosexual??

thus soemtimes leaves to the conflicts

[FallenAngelII]

damn right i'm heterosexual i do like boobs.

would you be happier of there did have a gay character in the show that you could relate to. i think so of the probelms that people have with you is becuase there don't see your view point becuase there are heterosexual??

thus soemtimes leaves to the conflicts

I would be happier if we kept the Kirking out of the show. I do not watch "Torchwood" despite it being lauded as a great sci-fi show.

Why? Because the character Captain Jack Harkness is bisexual and does John's thing, only more of it and with both genders. I could care less if John was gay and romancing men instead. It's bad writing and bad TV.

[prion]

I would be happier if we kept the Kirking out of the show. I do not watch "Torchwood" despite it being lauded as a great sci-fi show.

Why? Because the character Captain Jack Harkness is bisexual and does John's thing, only more of it and with both genders. I could care less if John was gay and romancing men instead. It's bad writing and bad TV.

If folksl want to see characters falling into bed with each other, that's why networks create shows like Desperate Housewives, and populate the daytime with soaps. SGA is an action/adventure/scifi program, and the purpose of those programs is action/adventure/scifi. I don't get Torchwood as I don't get BBC America (darn darn darn) but since I didn't like the character at all when he was on DOCTOR WHO, it's no loss to me.

Basically, if Shep is gonna 'kirk', then at least let's not the end result of that be losing alien technology. That's my biggest gripe. had the ship but because of the kiss, lost the ship. Stupid is as stupid does

[Xaeden]

John is not the trusty kind of guy. He's quite suspicious. He just let his guard down.

The Wraith in "Common Ground" was desperate and really needed John. Larrin did not.

Actually she did. Neither of them had a weapon and the Wraith were making their way to the control room. Had they not worked together the Wraith would've gotten their hands on the ship and that was something neither of them could allow. Then there's the issue of John saving her life twice - I would count that as her needing his help.

Rewatch the episode:
* He was "stunned" when he first saw her and her radiant beauty
* When she said she'd make some tea (or have someone do it, I can't remember), he said "I hoped you'd say that" with a "charming" little smile
* He was mightily annoyed with Rodney and told him to stay out of it so he could spend time alone with her. While Rodney can be quite whiney and rude, John doesn't tell him to stay away from someone. In fact, that's the only time John as far as to keep Rodney away at all costs... because he liked her.

He was being nice with the tea thing. You look too deeply into things. As far as ordering Rodney back, pay attention to how he was acting:

MCKAY: More importantly it's protected by that weapon of yours...

CHAYA: Weapon? I'm aware of no such thing on Proculus.

SHEPPARD: *glances at McKay* You sure about that?

CHAYA: Yes.

MCKAY: Oh please...

SHEPPARD: *whispers* Rodney. Best behavior.

MCKAY: This is as good as it gets, Major. Chaya, the only reason we are alive is because of a powerful energy weapon that emanated somewhere on the surface of this planet, it destroyed the ships that were shooting at us. That weapon is what's keeping the Wraith away.

...

SHEPPARD: Chaya...there are a lot of people who are just like...you and me...who are in need because of the Wraith...What you have here-what Othara has provided you with here is a very rare thing. *McKay rolls eyes* but we have a lot to offer too...That's what friends do they share. I think we could help each other.

...

TEYLA: Perhaps Chaya is just unaware of the weapon's existence.

FORD: Or she knows...and she wants to keep it a secret from us.

SHEPPARD: Doesn't strike me as the lying type either. *McKay snorts, silence*.........Ok let's just see what...Othara has to say. *Sits*

MCKAY: So...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain hmm?

SHEPPARD: Exactly. *lies down*

....

MCKAY: And you really had to chant all that time to come up with that.

SHEPPARD: McKay.

TEYLA: Is there any way we can ask Othara to reconsider?

CHAYA: Othara understands and sympathizes. These Wraith are a scourge among our stars but she has to place the lives of her people first.

MCKAY: Well *stands* I think we both knew what you were going to say long before you even went in there.

CHAYA: *Not a happy camper* We prayed for Othara's guidance.

MCKAY: And what did Othara say? You're hiding behind your religion to justify your complete and utter selfishness.

MCKAY: If Othara existed she would be ashamed of herself.

ZARAH: We ask only to be left alone. And in peace.

MCKAY: So... untold thousands possibly...millions of people will die out there when they could have been saved. All in the name of Othara. How very very peaceful of you.

CHAYA: You should be grateful to Othara.

MCKAY: This is a waste of time.

CHAYA: *turns to Sheppard* Othara regrets that she cannot help you.

MCKAY: And I'm sure those were her exact words.

SHEPPARD: That's enough! Head back to the jumper. I'll be there in a minute.

MCKAY: Why?

SHEPPARD: Because you're not helping.

Notice how everyone but him was trying to be diplomatic. Notice how many times Sheppard tried to get him to tone it down before ordering him back to the jumper. Also, watch the scene where they turn back to the jumper - Ford gives Mckay a look after previously saying he didn't think she was lying. Was Ford letting his feelings toward her cause him to act differently as well?

Still very poor judgement, especially after the fiascos with the Genii. And he liked her from the start. See the "stunned"-part.

Being surprised by her beauty goes to show that she is different than everyone else (as in a genetically perfect Ancient). Beckett later made a comment about her being as beautiful on the inside as on the outside. That's not to say Sheppard wasn't instantly attracted to her, but physical attraction and an emotional interest are two different things. Your claim is that he let his feelings get in the way of his judgement and you do not do that over a basic attraction.

She wanted the technology. John was, however, smitten and took Chaya on a picnic. You cannot deny that.

Sheppard wanted the technology as well and his actions up until that point were based on trying to get it. When it did get to the picnic he was nervous about his feelings as we can see from that scene where he had a talk with Telya and she says the following:

TEYLA: *grins* I know that as ranking military officer here in Atlantis that you feel a heavy burden of responsibility...but you are allowed to have feelings for others...

He is allowed to have a relationship with someone so long as it does not get in the way of his duties and as I've been pointing out nothing he did before the picnic was something that anyone had a problem with - Having a picnic is not a threat to national security.

Yes, John took her on a picnic and kissed her all in the name of securing a new home for them.

If push came to shove, they could've hid out on the Kid Planet for a while. It's not like they were out of options, they were just looking for a better one. To endanger the entire city by bringing in an unknown person who was obviously lying (what with the energy burst which had been established as "Not possibly a natural phenomena) and who was obviously hiding something (in Carson's words, she was "too healthy) and giving them a great tour of everything of the city including what consoles did what (alone with them) and telling them some highly classified information isn't exactly something you'd do normally, even under desperate circumstances and must I remind you again of the Genii. Obviously he wanted to spend time alone with her.

If you want to make a case that trusting her was a mistake on the part of Atlantis as a whole that is fine (Weir, Ford, Sheppard, and Telya all made that mistake then). But you're also trying to claim that the mistake was made because he had feelings toward her and you're overlooking my attempts to show you that he did not show her how the systems worked and gave her a tour because of that.

Remember also that the sanctuary was more than just a home for Atlantis, it could've been a home for millions of people throughout the galaxy and that there was a possibility that they could get a ZPM out of this. There were so many benefits of getting her to trust them.

While she was most probably not a Genii spy, she could've been just as bad as the Genii, friendly at first but with a hidden agenda. John ignored Rodney's input without a second thought. Why? Not just because Rodney wasn't taken as seriously back then, but because he was obviously smitted (see stunned-part) and didn't want to think she was lying about everything.

Now it's probably? She wasn't a Genii spy, I thought we've established this. You just don't like to admit you were wrong in thinking something and want to find some sort of gray area to retreat to, don't you? And again, Rodney was being ignored by everyone without a second thought. However, I will remind you that Sheppard only ignored his mistrust for her after he showed her everything. In fact, it was because Sheppard was showing her things and she touched one the counsels that Rodney figured out that she set off an alien detector. Before he was just complaining about her religion.

John was giving Chaya a tour of the city alone, without anyone else around. How the Hell was Elizabeth supposed to know exactly what John was and wasn't telling her?

Did you really watch the episode or did you just watch part of it? There were other people around when he was telling her what counsels are what. That is when she activated the alien detector device and a nearby scientist explained that they hadn't figured out what it did yet and just moved it there from another part of the city. Considering this was a big deal that Mckay and Weir were made aware of I'd be surprised if he didn't have to explain that it happened while Sheppard was showing Chaya what things do. Also Weir was around when Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her the more advanced systems.

That was years ago. And John should've read that file and known how badly it can end up with you show someone unknown around your facility and give them a full tour of everything. This just makes it even worse.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of others as well.

That was one of many examples. Other times trusting people worked out. But anyway I fail to see how Sheppard would've had the time to read thousands upon thousands of mission reports during his short time in season 1. It wasn't like he prepared for this job - He was thrust into it and suddenly became very busy leading an offworld team and running the military aspect of things within the city. Perhaps you should be blaming Weir for not learning from that mistake as she would've been in a better position to have been aware of that.

It's all big ball of wax. And John knew about Rodney's suspicions all throughout the episode, but swallowed all of Chaya's lies without question and never questioned her. Also, must I repeat myself? Too much information, too thourough a tour and, most importantly, he was almost always alone with her. Had she been Larrian, she could've just overpowered him and stolen his gun and then where would we be with her holding John hostage?

Sheppard knew that Rodney was rambling about "not" stealing a ZPM and how her religion was nonsense. He didn't have any real basis to not trust her and both Ford and Telya didn't think there was cause to think she was lying.

John did a whole lot more than Elizabeth was prepared to do. And you really think he would've abandoned his position for her and go back to Proculus to live with her? She's their High Priestess of Athar, so it's a given she couldn't possibly have moved to Atlantis.

Actually if you really think about it there was a chance that they would have no move there so they would see each other all the time and even if they did not there would've been a chance they could see each other between his missions. There's no reason Weir wouldn't have let him visit her planet from time to time.

You realize that having John as a hostage is a powerful tool of negotiations, right?

Not enough to take control of the city. Further more this is not the only time they've brought people back without checking them for weapons ahead of time.

John had, earlier in the episode, told Chaya that they were new to the galaxy (he'd also explained what a galaxy was).

My point exactly. The Genii knew that they were new to this galaxy as well. Chaya just also knew the name of the exact planet they came from. For some reason you ignored my quote from The Storm though. Your original point was that the Genii could send them back to Earth with the information Sheppard gave her and I was trying to explain that the only thing she knew over the Genii was the name, Earth, which is useless information.

[Linzi]

If folksl want to see characters falling into bed with each other, that's why networks create shows like Desperate Housewives, and populate the daytime with soaps. SGA is an action/adventure/scifi program, and the purpose of those programs is action/adventure/scifi. I don't get Torchwood as I don't get BBC America (darn darn darn) but since I didn't like the character at all when he was on DOCTOR WHO, it's no loss to me.

Basically, if Shep is gonna 'kirk', then at least let's not the end result of that be losing alien technology. That's my biggest gripe. had the ship but because of the kiss, lost the ship. Stupid is as stupid does

Do you honestly believe Sheppard and co would have taken the Aurora class ship? Do you think the Atlantis expedition would have stolen it from the Travelers, who had found it? I don't. Therefore kissing or not has no relevance here. It was Larrin and co's ship. Maybe they might have tried to make a deal for it, but knowing Larrin needed it to house her people, no way would Sheppard take it from her - that's not the type of person he is. Instead they now have an ally with an Aurora class ship, access to technology etc... So the point about whether letting Larrin kiss Sheppard meant he lost the ship is rather a moot one, I think.

Also, sorry, where I come from one kiss doesn't equate falling into bed or anything from Desperate Housewives...

[FallenAngelII]

Actually she did. Neither of them had a weapon and the Wraith were making their way to the control room. Had they not worked together the Wraith would've gotten their hands on the ship and that was something neither of them could allow. Then there's the issue of John saving her life twice - I would count that as her needing his help.

Yes, but once the Wraith were defeated, she had no need for him any more.

The Wraith needed John up until they finally managed to escape through the Stargate. Heck, John didn't even fully trust that Wraith.

He was being nice with the tea thing. You look too deeply into things. As far as ordering Rodney back, pay attention to how he was acting:

Nice my tuchas. He's always flirting around like that. He was also momentarily stunned by her beauty just seconds before saying that.

SHEPPARD: Doesn't strike me as the lying type either. *McKay snorts, silence*.........Ok let's just see what...Othara has to say. *Sits*

My point exactly. He was blinded by her beauty and trusted her because she had a nice body and face. Meanwhile, she lied to him about pretty much everything.

Notice how everyone but him was trying to be diplomatic. Notice how many times Sheppard tried to get him to tone it down before ordering him back to the jumper. Also, watch the scene where they turn back to the jumper - Ford gives Mckay a look after previously saying he didn't think she was lying. Was Ford letting his feelings toward her cause him to act differently as well?

Doesn't matter what Ford thought or didn't think. John was in the wrong. He trusted a woman who lied about everything.

Being surprised by her beauty goes to show that she is different than everyone else (as in a genetically perfect Ancient). Beckett later made a comment about her being as beautiful on the inside as on the outside. That's not to say Sheppard wasn't instantly attracted to her, but physical attraction and an emotional interest are two different things. Your claim is that he let his feelings get in the way of his judgement and you do not do that over a basic attraction.

His "feelings" in Larrin's case were basic attraction as well. John lets that get in his way a lot.

And then there's a whole bunch of crap I don't agree with but don't have to energy to argue against because we keep repeating ourselves. We disagree. Leave it at that.

[FallenAngelII]

Do you honestly believe Sheppard and co would have taken the Aurora class ship? Do you think the Atlantis expedition would have stolen it from the Travelers, who had found it? I don't. Therefore kissing or not has no relevance here. It was Larrin and co's ship. Maybe they might have tried to make a deal for it, but knowing Larrin needed it to house her people, no way would Sheppard take it from her - that's not the type of person he is. Instead they now have an ally with an Aurora class ship, access to technology etc... So the point about whether letting Larrin kiss Sheppard meant he lost the ship is rather a moot one, I think.

So what exactly did John originally plan to do once he'd hijacked the ship? Hyperdrive to the closest gate and gate home? No, he was gonna take it back to Atlantis and then shove the Travelers through a gate to some planet where they could get back home.

[DetriusXii]

I'm going to agree that Sheppard be removed from command. And to the posters arguing that McKay and Carson has relationships, well the counterpoint is that they're relationships weren't security threats. Sheppard's relationships are always security threats and he doesn't belong. Neither does Ronon though, since he's willing to be insubordinate.

Basically, both these members are willing to put their own interests ahead of earth's interests. If the military aspect of the show was still present in Stargate (I think it would be safe to say that it corresponds to the same time in the decline of ratings), we would not have all these childish episodes where Sheppard becomes flustered by the girl or lets his guard down.

[Xaeden]

Yes, but once the Wraith were defeated, she had no need for him any more.

The Wraith needed John up until they finally managed to escape through the Stargate. Heck, John didn't even fully trust that Wraith.

At which point he thought the two had learned to trust each other. Anyway, Lirran told him about how badly they needed the ship and had a little moment where she revealed to him why they had to kidnap him rather than ask for help. On top of that he had saved her life twice and the two had worked together successfully.

As for the Wraith, he stopped needing the Wraith before he escaped into the Stargate. The Wraith could've attacked him at any time before then, but Sheppard the Wraith restored him after taking out the Genii soldiers so they learned to trust each other. Likewise Lirran let Sheppard go after they had that talk in that cell, so it just took her a little longer to do the right thing. He needs to be a lot more cautious, but I can certainly see why he thought he could trust her at that point. Thus if she was a male instead I can easily see Sheppard turning his back on him and the guy grabbing the gun from his belt. Lirran just had a more direct approach and she even commented on how Sheppard didn't think to lock her up at that point because he assumed his people would get their before hers did. The only thing that had anything to do with Sheppard being attracted to her in the episode was his willingness to kiss her back. Everything else was reasonable and within character for him to react to anyone.

Nice my tuchas. He's always flirting around like that. He was also momentarily stunned by her beauty just seconds before saying that.

My point exactly. He was blinded by her beauty and trusted her because she had a nice body and face. Meanwhile, she lied to him about pretty much everything.

I think you have a problem with people who show their attraction to other people. You're jumping to wild and nonsensiable conclusions based purely on a simple physical attraction. Nothing Sheppard did between that point and the picnic was unprofessonal or more trusting than he or Weir would've been had she been ugly.

Doesn't matter what Ford thought or didn't think. John was in the wrong. He trusted a woman who lied about everything.

Yes it does matter. You're not just saying Sheppard was wrong. You're saying he blinded by emotions and did the wrong thing because of that. Yet other people did the same "wrong" things (by your definition) and it had nothing to do with any romantic feelings toward her. You're berating him for thinking he could trust her and letting everyone else off the hook just because Sheppard ended up having a relationship of sorts with her. However, that argument does not pan out. Either everyone was wrong because they were blinded by her beauty or Sheppard had valid reasons for taking her back to Atlantis and giving her the full tour.

His "feelings" in Larrin's case were basic attraction as well. John lets that get in his way a lot.

And how exactly did it get in the way with Chaya when he and everyone but Mckay were in agreement about how he should go about things? Obviously Sheppard should not have kissed Larrin and he suffered for doing so, but here he did everything (before the picnic) for the good of his people and the benefits of what they could've gotten out of trusting her far outweighed any risk.

We disagree. Leave it at that.

Fair enough.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Is this round two? Don't say I never warned you.

*Disclaimer* I don't think anything will be closed in this thread FAII, so just to warn you, I may talk of slut! Given the thread, I feel i'll be on topic this time.

John denies been someone who sleeps around or at least who flirts with anything female and mildly attractive on pretty much every other episode. Every single time Rodney accuses him of Kirkism, he denies it, vehemently.

He doesn't admit it because he's a gentleman. As i've said to you before, real men don't talk about what happens in the bedroom... or the closet. He denies it because it's crap! The joke was actually started not as a result of Shep flirting, but because he was possessive about the PJ. Well, I guess you could argue that the PJ is a 'she' so..

Check any modern dictionary. We've come far in equality and the word "Slut" (sometimes "Manslut") can now be used even for men. No, they are not "Players". It's not a status symbol. They are sluts.

It would be misogyny to consider women who sleep around sluts and men who do the same players.

I quoted you from dictionary.com. You chose not to accept it! I'm not prepared to go to a modern dictionary thanks, as I prefer something that's accurate! Slang words are not proper definitions. I have standards ya know.

He is the second in command of Atlantis. When debriefing, he's got an obligation to include every single detail, even those that would embarass him, especially those. His weak points must be exposed so everyone else know.

Please FAII let's not talk about de-briefing in the slut thread, you'll get me all excited again.

What about next time some sexy alien chick decides to flirt her way to grab his gun or whatever? If Teyla knew about the Travelers-incident, she'd politely step in and trip said alien chick or something.

Professionals do not omit important facts in debriefings because they're embarassing.

If some sexy alien woman wants to grab his tackle, then I say good for her! Sometimes a woman just gets the urge for such things.

Yes, well Teyla wasn't there was she? So it's irrelevant. It's again, shoulda, woulda, coulda...

Again with the debriefings.... oh my i've come over all unecessary *pictures images that she shouldn't be picturing* Who said he omitted anything? We don't know that he didn't tell Carter everything, do we? Just because he didn't tell the team, does not mean he didn't tell Sam. And trust me if you put every single thing about a mission, it would likely be novel length. So no, why would he put something like a kiss in. Chances are he wrote;

In PJ, captured by a group known as the Travelers. Tortured and beaten to extract information. Escaped and accessed a new ship! Captured again. Released after diplomatic relations were established. The end. Short sweet and to the point unlike our debates.

Dictionary.com/Wikipedia. Check them before speaking, "hon".

I sense you do not feel my luff, hon. Would sweetie or babe be more appropriate?

And as stated above my original source was quoted from that site. Wikipedia is not a source for accurate information! Next!

(American Heritage Dictionary) * A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

Also, see manslut. It's common daily English.


Is that your actual opinion?

Why don't you quote from a reliable source FAII, maybe like websters, or the oxford dictionary? You call people mansluts daily??!! FAII you should be ashamed of yourself.

It's my perception that women and men are treated differently, yes.

I'm still anti-Sam. There is, however, now, one redeeming factor about her being on Atlantis.

So, you're being Pro-Sam when it suits your agenda then?

I think it was much more of a "I don't wanna die"-moment. He didn't wanna die of radiation as well. After all, these were men who had tortured him and threatened to kill him. They were basically enemy combatants.

I would have preferred for him to help her up and then pushed her away when she leaned in to make-out as it was obviously not the right time and place to do it.

Given how much you like his character do you really think that Shep gives a toss about his own life? it's his character that he won't kill unless he absolutely has to. He has a tendancy just incase you didn't know to form alliances.... the CG wraith ring a bell? Ladon? Shall I go on? So why wouldn't he form an alliance with someone like Larrin. Given what was to be gained for Atlantis, he'd put aside his differences wouldn't he?

Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.

Actually, no, not because he had to, because he chose to. There's a difference. And actually the wraith were not dead when they teamed up! he was wrong about Larrin? Not really, because why then did she let him go? Particularly after saying she wouldn't. Must have been one good bit of nookie for her to change her mind.

Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.

You just contradicted yourself with your previous statement. Ummmm hate to tell you this, but he spent time with Teyla!!

* Original script had him confirm that he accepted
* Filmed, but cut scene had him reject her

The writers obviously thought twice about how it should go. That they even considered having him accept is inexcusable

.

Or they wanted to leave it up to the viewers so that they could have something to talk about.

You must have been watching the wrong episode. It was not just one chaste peck. Open mouths, repeated kissing, leaning of heads, possible tounges, wet, sloppy sounds.

Ooooh your description sounds so pornographic. It was a kiss, one kiss! Did you see tongues? Really? repeated kissing? Were we watching the same ep? I like yours better than the one I watched, especially with all that smooching. Can you lend me your copy?

They had just initiated a make-out session and in John's mind, he was getting some tail. The make-out session ended abruptly because Larrin was pretty fast on grabbing the stunner.


His libido has clouded his judgement countless times. Counting how many times it didn't is like trying to defend a killer for "all those people he didn't kill".

*Snort* If you call that a makeout session, might I suggest to you some nite time reading? The kamasutra perhaps? A word of advice Fallen, once a woman knows what she wants, she doesn't hesitate. So, she grabbed his tackle.... *imagines that image*

What were we talking about again?

Then why are you so vehemently defending his actions in "Travelers". He obviously make a mistake and paid for it.

Actually my arguments were well reasoned. Certainly not vehement. Did I say that I agreed with him kissing Larrin in that situation? I think you'll find I said he should have waited until they got back to his cell.

Yes, because I obviously put to mind everything every single person on this forum says about themselves.

I do. Surprisingly I like to know who i'm talking to.

It's not that he'd intentionally let Atlantis be destroyed. But his libido might cloud his judgement, making him go for that Alien Tail at the wrong moments, allowing Atlantis in turn to be destroyed because he was too busy getting tail. This episode proves that.

His libido cloud his judgement after all those eps I mentioned where it didn't? You take one moment out of 4 years? Good logic there. Hate to disappoint ya, but he didn't have sex with her, he kissed her, once.

It might have lead to a tentative alliance?! Oh, yes. I want an alliance with someone so I'll make out with them and then maybe have sex with them. That's the perfect way to start an alliance!

No, he wanted some tail and he thought she was cool and on board. Obviously his gut was wrong.

Right! He allowed himself to be captured just to have sex with an unknown Alien that likes to beat him up!

She said that she'd been following him with her mind. She didn't randomly get hit with visions of him. Every single time he left the cloister, she used her powers to stalk him.

She was delusional and he knew it. In her mind, he'd spend eternity with her as an Ascended being and he knew fully well that would never happen (because he knows himself best), yet he lead her on because he wanted sex.

Are we still on this stalking thing? Do you really want to go there with me on this Fallen? Think about it.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Back

As you actually blaming Elizabeth for "Alliance"? They had no choice. It was either "ally" themselves or have every single hive ship in the galaxy come and blow them up. It wasn't Elizabeth's decision to make. Her decision was "choose the least of two evils". Ladon was under strict guard his entire stay. If he'd moved a muscle the wrong way, he'd be toast. He didn't get a full tour of Atlantis complete with what systems do what or received priviliged information nor did Elizabeth skip off on a one-on-one with him without any guards around.

Did I lay blame? I think not! I said that sometimes people have limited choices, and have no alternative to do something that you would not necessarily do... ie... form an alliance with people who killed several of your own people. You work with what you've got.

Sheppard's instincts were wrong. She was lying about pretty much everything. It doesn't matter if her lies were harmless. John had been so blinded he trusted everything she said, but she was lying the entire time. About who she were, about Athar, about how the "device" works, why she came with them, about her maybe changing her mind. Pretty much everything she'd told him were lies. Harmless (to the Atlantis expedition) lies, but lies nonetheless.

What? No one is allowed to have an off moment? Just because your 'the man' does that mean you're going to be right 24/7 365 days a year? No one, and I mean no one is falliable.

Actually he didn't trust her until they started to work together, and felt they had built up a commeraderie... maybe he thought that after working with the wraith, that this would be on the same par. People draw on their experiences.

Now she'd been some evil mastermind planning to take over Atlantis, John would've been equally blinded and trusted everything she'd said. The problem is not that she lied and that her lies were harmless. The problem was how John allowed his libido to overtake all of his other senses and trusted her so completely.

Okay, can i ask you to put the name of the person you're referring to, this jumping around from all these different women is making things difficult to respond to. So whose evil mastermind? Larrin, Teer, Chaya?

I'm responding as if you mean Chaya. And you know this how? Do you really think he'd sacrifce the city? Particularly after the events in the Siege and 'The Storm/The eya'.

So he trusted her, did she do anythin that could be construded as hurting the city? Nope! Did she save the boys from the wraith? Yep. So in a nutshell his instincts were right about her weren't they?

If you strike up a relationship with an Alien Priestess and make out with her and then dump her (because there was no way she was coming to Atlantis to stay and John wouldn't relocate to Proculus), a lot of locals would take offense on him defiling their priestess and then running off.

She was sneaky because she lied about pretty much everything. See above.

Defiling their priestess? Dumping? Which ep was this then, Fallen? Do you know about the social customs of the people from Proculus? Defiling? is that how you see sex or the glowy thing? How do you know they'd take offence? Are you an anthropologist on Proculus and haven't told us?

Right,she omitted she was an ancient. Just like the expedition team omit they're from Atlantis? Why? To hide their identity for fear of strangers.

It's inappropriate for a man of his age and position to constantly be doing so when it can get them into trouble. Flirt with the wrong person, get your team thrown into jail. Flirt and Kirk at the wrong times, your team gets killed while you're getting Tail. It hasn't happened yet, but John keeps putting himself in positions where it could.

So a young man in his prime and sexy to boot isn't allowed to flirt? When has he ever put his team at risk, because of a woman? So on 3 occasions in 4 years is what you would define as continually putting himself into positions that could jespordise the team?

That the writers got cold feet and rewrote the episode? Men think about sex, so do women. I think about sex. I like sex. But as the military commander of Atlantis, I wouldn't go around thinking about it while on missions or in hostile situations where I might die at any time.

Men actually think about sex more than women. So being in the military means that once you enlist that actually castrate you, put you on meds and labotomise you so that the word or thought of sex is wiped from your existance? Hmmmmmm i think not. So, when Kolya stormed Atlantis, he thought that he'd let him roam free while he bedded someone? Or while on the Wraith ship he decides to have a bit of nookie with the Wraith Queen, because she's a female, and disregards his team... right he does that all the time!

I'm strictly going by the Rodney-definition of Kirking. But that's not even the important thing here. John's lapse in judgement cost the Atlantis expedition an Aurora-class ship.

Rodney said it as a joke... it's a shame some people can't take it as such.

"TEER: I knew. (John looks at her.) I was following your journey in my mind. I was with you since you left the Cloister."


She said the following about her visions:
* John was the one to take her virginity (something John's dirty mind hoped for)
* John was the one who would help them Ascend
* John would Ascend with them and spend eternity with her

The bolded part is your interpretation! When did she mention the word 'virginity'? After 6 months being without sex, maybe he was feeling a bit horny? She certainly was.

Establish to me that Shep has a dirty mind? Just because your mind is permanently in the gutter. It doesn't mean that everyone else's is, and if you go in to an ep with those preconceptions then that is what you will see.

She's clearly delusional here. She's not just looking for a little sex with the man she's been waiting for. She thinks he's destined to spend eternity with her. She thinks he'd gonna ascend with them.

John knows himself best so he knows he would never Ascend. Yet he takes advantage of her delusion and has sex with her because it felt good, intending very much on leaving her first chance he got, getting her hopes up.

How does that make her delusional? have you ever heard of love at first sight, or fancied someone that doesn't fancy you. Here's a thought, maybe he actually liked her. He was lonely he missed his friends and family, they'd been talking to each other for months, she stood by him, they talked openly about things and grew to care for each other during the 6 months he was there.. they had sex. So?

He's the only one we see get action. The writers are trying to make him look like a stud.

No, he's the only one you think we see in action. Of course no one else on Atlantis has dated, got pregnant, had sex in 4 years.... of course not.