Why Colonel Sheppard Should Not Be In Command ~The Pro-Sam Thread~

[FallenAngelII]

UM ...I'm a woman and don't have any problem with the plotlines and don't see any misuse of women.

I said women, not all women. It's a statistically sound argument if you go by past posts here on Gateworld.

And I don't see Sheppard doing anything to the detriment of the expedition... she kissed him once so stop throwing in things that never happened...

She initiated the kiss by leaning in, John leaned in in turn and opened his mouth for the kiss and then they started making out. People seem hellbent on making it sound like she kissed him when he was caught off guard and that it was just a chaste kiss, but it's clear that he was onboard with the idea and that it was a make-out session aborted only because she'd gotten his gun.

Why was it a make-out session? Open mouths, more than just one chaste kiss and sloppy wet kissing sounds.

So big deal, he allowed her to kiss him for a few seconds... I wonder how many guys wouldn't have done the same thing... and he had just saved her life twice so not a huge presumption to expect they had established a bit of trust between them.... and I guess in the long run they did.. or she wouldn't have let him go.

This is the women who earlier had shown no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to get what she wants, who had tortured him and hit him repeatedly in the face and who had threatened him at gunpoint. Smart people (and really, John ougta be one by now, what with the Genii, Asuran and Chaya-fiascos of trusts) would be dubious about it when she suddenly thinks they should kiss face.

He didn't just allow her to kiss him, he went with the flow and kissed back (as evidence by the engaged make-out session and the fact that his face tilted and didn't just stay still). This wasn't John letting her kiss him or her surprising him when he was caught off guard. John actively participated. Stop trying to make it sound like he didn't like it or didn't decide "What the heck!" when she offered.

Your arguments are totally baseless and without any foundation... men and women can actually be attracted to each other without it jeopardising the whole galaxy.... it doesn't have to spell doom and gloom because two people have some sort of chemistry going on... Sheppard managed to escape, lock Larrin up, defeat the Wraith and send a signal to his people, so how did his banter or one kiss with Larrin jeopardise anything.....

The thing is that in this case (and in past cases), it John has jeopardized the entire galaxy or at least Atlantis when engaging in chasing Galactic Tail.

What John had managed to do before this does not matter. The remains fact that despite all this, he decided to go for the Galactic Tail and was defeated for it, losing an Ancient warship in the process.

It does not matter if I save 12 children if I later fail and get 25 other children killed. I should still be blamed for getting those 25 children killed.

So she betrayed the trust he thought he had built up with her... she would have just hit him from behind or knocked him out as soon as his back was turned anyway.... he thought they were still working together and would have had his guard down whether she hit him over the head or kissed him....

He thought they were suddenly working together now because...? So, yes, they'd just worked together to kill off the Wraith, a common enemy. The woman who had no qualms about killing her own people and who was hellbent on gaining control of the ship would have no problems about sneak attacking him.

A smart person would just lock her up again.

So kirking was not the issue here and even if Shep hadn't of been stunned her people arrived shortly afterwards and Shep would have been overpowerd again anyway...

It does not matter what would have happened anyway. What matters is what actually happened and how it jeaopardized everything. What if the jumpers had been the first to arrive and John was being held hostage by Larrin? He also had no way of knowing that the Traveler ships would get there first. He genuinely believed the jumpers would get there first.

It's like saying that Sam's judgement shouldn't be put into question by how much she trusted RepliCarter since RepliCarter had already gotten what she needed by the time it dawned on everybody that they should just kill her or that RepliCarter's betrayal later lead to them finding the Dakarra Device. Sam still made a grave mistake, just like John.

To let his guard down and chase the Intergalatic Tail who had no qualms about killing her own people for personal gain isn't really that smart.

If John had held Larrin hostage, what were the Traveler warships going to do? Threaten to blow them both up? "Give us the ship or we'll blow it, you and our leader up!". Yeah, great threat.

[Pegasus_SGA]

As I’m in work FAII you’ll have to excuse the formatting.. as I know how important that is for you. Okay so this is in about 2/3 parts. It’s all FAII’s fault.

FAII saysTo start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

Really? You could have fooled me from your umpteen Travelers posts about the innuendo/sex/boobs/LT Col Slut! No I can see you have no issues with people being promiscuous as long as they’re not called Shep! And actually you can’t call Shep a ‘slut’ because he’s not a women! Check the definition, FAII. As for the Sam comments…. Are you going to know delete all your posts then in the Anti Sam thread now that you’ve come to this revelation? I’m actually really pleased he’s not the commander now. How could he possibly get whumped sitting behind a desk? Mind you those pins and staplers pack a mean punch I hear! Unfit for command… on what do you base this assumption? After the airing of Travelers where he controlled his ATA gene, got himself and alliance and made some friends… yep definitely he’s unfit to serve… :rolleye:

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

You like John? Really? You could have fooled me, But never mind I’m willing to hear you out. Sigs do not make the person FAII, however, mine I believe fits my personality quite well… moving swiftly on. Not hating Shep!! Sorry, I keep having to remind myself of that when you post… I really don’t know why though… Could it possibly be Fallen that you hated him because he wasn’t with Rodney, and you may have felt a teensy bit jealous that Larrin was monopolising his time instead of McKay? Who the heck is Katie Griffith and why bring her into the equation if she’s not posted?

Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:

Have I said how much I enjoy our walks down memory Lane FAII, it’s a shame though your memories and mine differ so.

Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Teer (from now on referred to only as Squid). Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".

You do know that the thunkers are individuals right? Just checking. You know it would also help clear up the crap, if you stuck to the facts instead of changing names, details to suit your purposes… I’m just saying. So let me get this straight than Chaya + Teer+ Shep = Poor judgement? Does that sum up what you’re saying? Okay here’s some facts. Both women were ancient, and maybe, just maybe Shep’s spidey sense was tingling therefore he trusted them? There was no objective evidence to suggest that these women were being anything but honest in their intentions. IE none of them posed a threat to Atlantis. Each planets were rudimentary and the Atlantis team needed an alliance, therefore Shep (being the leader of the away team) held diplomatic relations ( with Chaya) does it really matter if it went any further. So he ate with her and had a picnic. He had to eat didn’t he? So why not build up trust by having a simple picnic? As for Teer, she instigated the whole thing… and he’d been there for months. So hardly think this is what you’d call ‘sluttish behaviour’. Have you never had lunch with local folks after they offered their hospitality?PART i

[Pegasus_SGA]

Sorry peeps I’m just having far too much fun

FAII continues to say - Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more). Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess.

Well I wouldn’t have minded getting into Shep’s jeansgenes? And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies.. the little hussy Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her. Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?

Exhibit B - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best and he knew that he wouldn't do that), she also told him that his friends were coming for him. He knew that they were coming for him. As he didn't know he was currently in a Time Dilation Field, he must have assumed she meant "minutes/hours/days" and not "weeks, months, whatever" and we know that they came, like, the very next day or something. Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He knows they're coming to save him, so he bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.

*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers? how do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her? Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.

While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

And yet 4 threads about this issue.

Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

Protectors of Sheppard… ah won’t that please Shep that he’s got a whumper as a guardian angel.

And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

I saw and responded in kind, but alas the next reply will have to wait until I get home. I hope you can wait that long hon. It’s just I don’t want you to shoot your load too early, and for me not being there on the receiving end.

And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

Would you take someone on that had a gun in your belly?

At first I was afraid, I was petrified

Why FAII did you just break out into song there? Isn’t that I will survive? I never realised you were so musically inclined. Fancy a duet?

I'm trying to [i]keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.

Are you a secret Shep whumper, FAII? I’d have never realised! If the deserve to thwack Shep over the head takes your fancy, then I say go forth!

[FallenAngelII]

Really? You could have fooled me from your umpteen Travelers posts about the innuendo/sex/boobs/LT Col Slut! No I can see you have no issues with people being promiscuous as long as they’re not called Shep! And actually you can’t call Shep a ‘slut’ because he’s not a women! Check the definition, FAII.

Why do you ignore a great deal of my talking about my definition of a slut? It's ok to be sexually promiscuous as long as you have no problems acknowledging it, owning up to it and declaring it your way of life (or at least a personal preference).

John, however, denies it every time he's accused of being promiscuous. He argues with Rodney every time he's called "Kirk" and he even lied (or at least omitted vital information) in his debriefing about the events in "Travelers" as none of the others knew about the little make-out session that most probably cost them an Ancient warship.

He doesn't own it.

I also see that you've got a double standard. Only women can be sluts, you say? How so? Because if men are promiscuous, it's a status symbol and they are to be called players?

Too bad Wikipedia and Dictionary.com disagree. In the modern day, the term slut can be used for men as well. I'm an equal opportunity offender and champion of equal rights and equal responsibilities for all.

Men and women can be sluts all alike regardless of gender. If John would just own up to being promiscuous, I would start referring to him as The Guy Who Gets Around or something else other than "slut".

As for the Sam comments…. Are you going to know delete all your posts then in the Anti Sam thread now that you’ve come to this revelation? I’m actually really pleased he’s not the commander now. How could he possibly get whumped sitting behind a desk?

I'm glad Sam's on Atlantis and the military commander. I'm, however, not glad for anything else concerning Sam's presence on Atlantis.

John, before the arrival of Sam, had been the acting military commander of Atlantis for three years, yet he'd gone off world in almost every single episode and whumped countless time.

He was never "sitting behind a desk". In fact, have we ever seen his office?

Mind you those pins and staplers pack a mean punch I hear! Unfit for command… on what do you base this assumption? After the airing of Travelers where he controlled his ATA gene, got himself and alliance and made some friends…

Sheer dumb luck. If he had handled himself better and not let his libido get the best of him, he'd have gotten an Ancient warship out of the deal instead.

And it was sheer dumb luck that he managed to talk Larrin down. This was, after all, a woman who had no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to blackmail John to do her bidding. Not one to trust or to assume would be OK with an alliance, especially not after she kidnapped John and then tortured him for information she already knew.

In "Sanctuary", John brought back Chaya, an unknown woman to Atlantis and proceeded to tell her which consoles did what. This was after the attempted Genii invasion, so if she had been a Genii spy, it would've been much easier for them to take ogver the city.

In "The Tower", he indulged himself into a little nookie while kept prisoner in an Atlantis-clone while his team was off doing what knows what (for all knew, they could all be dead).

And in "Travelers", he made out with an obviously hostile woman because she batted her eyelashes at him while a Wraith might have been lurking only a few feet away.

This is clearly a person who lets their libido get the best out of them even while in hostile situations and who is not fit to serve as military commander of Atlantis.

Could it possibly be Fallen that you hated him because he wasn’t with Rodney, and you may have felt a teensy bit jealous that Larrin was monopolising his time instead of McKay?

As opposed to a lot of people, I do not let myself be biased when posting about important matters. I couldn't care less that McShep will never be canon or that John romances women.

You seem to biased by your love for John to ever acknowledge that he could make a mistake. You also seemed to be biased by the fact that you're a heterosexual male (you are, right?) as you claim that only women can be called sluts.

I care, however, about the fact that John romances women at the most inopportune times, endangering himself and others. I couldn't care less if John went for girls like Teyla, Elizabeth, Keller or Sam. At least those are safe people to be around and he can trust them.

Him romancing Teyla wouldn't lead to any danger. However, he has seemingly few inhibitions and doesn't really seem to care about what happens to the rest of the world while he's off getting some tail as proven by Chaya, Maara and Larrin.

If Larrin had been someone he'd known for a few days at least and who he knew could be trusted instead of, well, who she was, then yeah, that wouldn't really be much of a problem.

Teer he actually knew, but she was delusional and he knew that, so that was just weird.

Who the heck is Katie Griffith and why bring her into the equation if she’s not posted?

Popular culture. If you don't know who she is (I mispelled her name, BTW, it's Kathy Griffin), Google her.

Have I said how much I enjoy our walks down memory Lane FAII, it’s a shame though your memories and mine differ so. You do know that the thunkers are individuals right? Just checking. You know it would also help clear up the crap, if you stuck to the facts instead of changing names, details to suit your purposes… I’m just saying.

Point out a single detail I changed. The only name I might've gotten wrong is Maara because I can never remember her name. The rest, I just gave some nicknames.

So let me get this straight than Chaya + Teer+ Shep = Poor judgement? Does that sum up what you’re saying? Okay here’s some facts. Both women were ancient, and maybe, just maybe Shep’s spidey sense was tingling therefore he trusted them?

Yes, because a Spider Sense is so reliable.

"My spidey senses are tingling! I should bring this woman I just met back to Atlantis, woo her with a picnic and proceed to give her a tour of Atlantis complete with intructions of what consoles do what!". And we know he was wrong about Chaya and that Rodney was right. Despite Chaya being friendly, she was lying. And John swallowed all of her lies! His spidey senses were way off. What if she had been lying about things other than who she was and her intentions?! What if she had been a Genii spy (this happened, after all, after the failed Genii invasion).

Teer wasn't untrustworthy. But she was hardly completely sane. She had been stalking him for months. She was obviously off her rocker. Add to that that she had just told him that his friends were coming. So he knew they were gonna be there any minute, yet he decided to get some tail while he could. Also, she told him that he would Ascend with her and spend eternity with her, that he was destined to. He knows himself the best and as such, he knew that she was delusional. There was no way he'd Ascend with her. But he still had sex with this delusional little girl half his age because, well, it was fun.

There was no objective evidence to suggest that these women were being anything but honest in their intentions. IE none of them posed a threat to Atlantis.

Doesn't mean that John did right by bringing Chaya back and revealing priviliged information to her. There was no objective evidence to suggest that the Genii were being anything but honest about their intentions, i.e. posing a threat to Atlantis when they first met, either. But they did.

People who are sneaky like that. This is why it's practice not to bring unknown people back to hidden secret bases, especially not to reveal how advanced technology works to them!

Each planets were rudimentary and the Atlantis team needed an alliance, therefore Shep (being the leader of the away team) held diplomatic relations ( with Chaya) does it really matter if it went any further. So he ate with her and had a picnic. He had to eat didn’t he? So why not build up trust by having a simple picnic? As for Teer, she instigated the whole thing… and he’d been there for months. So hardly think this is what you’d call ‘sluttish behaviour’. Have you never had lunch with local folks after they offered their hospitality?PART i

He went "beyond the necessary" and into "the Kirking territory". You do not hold diplomatic meetings by romancing the alien priestess. What if the priestess ended up wanting more? Like, say, marriage? If he refuses, there'd be a diplomatic scandal.

Also, he had no way of knowing that she wasn't a Genii spy! You do not do what he did when doing it jeapordizes Atlantis!

It does not matter who instigated what. If you agree on something without any doubt and without any coersion, you're as much guilty as the other party. You cannot claim "I was only cheating on you because they instigated it!", you agreed to as well.

John isn't some innocent guy who just has lots of women hitting on him and forcing themselves on him. He flirts back and then agrees on taking it further when they want to.

And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies..

Did he have no shame but to agree to banging her because she threw herself at him? Men who aren't governed by their penises would say "No" flatly. She just wanted his genes. Doesn't mean he has to agree. Especially not while he's a captive of a supposed despot who wants his genes to continue his rule. Not to mention that he didn't know where the rest of his team was. They could all be dead or fighting for survival for all he knew and he decided to pass the time by getting some Space Tail because he could.

It does not matter who started it when it comes to blame. Both parties are to blame, only the one who start it is to garner more blame. John, however, is not exempt of said blame.

Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her.

An interview confirms that the script originally called for him to accept said advances. The writers obviously changed their minds, but that doesn't really make much difference. Their little MarySue tendencies are still evident in later episodes.

Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers?

So she wasn't stalking him, you say? Despite her confirming it by saying that she'd been using her clairvoyant abilities to follow him wherever he went for months?

[FallenAngelII]

(It wouldn't fit into just one post, exceeded the 12000-character count)

How do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her?

TEER: Because I knew you were coming that night, and I knew where you would be in the field; and I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. (John looks shocked.) I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.

Cleraly indicates she's been saving herself for him.

Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.And yet 4 threads about this issue.

Actually, three. And the fact that he knew about his friends coming was just a small part of a big ball of wax. I'm currently going through the script and you seem to be right.

He still knew she was delusional and a stalker.

John didn't just have possible-sex twice and intended to have sex a third time in 3 years time (Chaya - Glowy Ascended "Sharing", Teer - Virgin for the Taking, Larrin - Space Leader With Dark Motives). If you're arguing that as long we don't see it, it's never ever happened, then I guess the expedition never goes to the bathroom, because I can't remember a single time where someone indicates they're going to the bathroom.

I've never seen Elizabeth's quarters either or heard references to them, so she must have slept on the pier. I have never seen Daniel shower, so he must not do that.

And not a single character other than John has ever been indicated as getting some Space Tail or Tail At All on Atlantis. Rodney and Katie didn't get much out of their date according to later episodes and the spoilers tell us, well, something.

John, however, gets tons of action. The writers are obviously telling us that he's promiscuous. Or are you claiming that he's only gotten Space Tail twice, gotten offered once but rejected it and then intended to get some Space Tail a third time? Because if you are, then the same argument can be made that not a single member of the expedition other than John has had sex in over three years.

I edited by original post, by the way. Any reference to him knowing his people were coming has been removed and I've added the part where his libido made him hope that she meant he was the one destined to take her virginity instead of the one destined to help them all Ascend.

[Linzi]

Sorry peeps I’m just having far too much fun Well I wouldn’t have minded getting into Shep’s jeansgenes? And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies.. the little hussy Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her. Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers? how do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her? Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.And yet 4 threads about this issue. Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.Protectors of Sheppard… ah won’t that please Shep that he’s got a whumper as a guardian angel. I saw and responded in kind, but alas the next reply will have to wait until I get home. I hope you can wait that long hon. It’s just I don’t want you to shoot your load too early, and for me not being there on the receiving end. Would you take someone on that had a gun in your belly?Why FAII did you just break out into song there? Isn’t that I will survive? I never realised you were so musically inclined. Fancy a duet?Are you a secret Shep whumper, FAII? I’d have never realised! If the deserve to thwack Shep over the head takes your fancy, then I say go forth!

I just love your posts, because they always make me smile! Well, except when you don't agree with me, and then I want to thwack you! I'm not going to say anything other than:

DITTO!!!!

Seriously, you're saving me from RSI here, because I don't have to answer such posts, because you said what I was going to, only much better and in such an amusing and unique way! You are SOOOO CHEEKY! So, from now on, I'll designate you my official spokesperson and you can get RSI instead. I know, whump Shep not self and all. Hey, I had no idea Fallen was a secret Shep whumper! He's turned to the darkside!

[dana]

I'm going to be a minority here as it seems, but I do agree that some women are misused in SGA (or SG universe) and that Sheppard seems to be the male version of Mary Sue of SGA. This Shep!Whoring should cease. Period. I'm not interested in that. It doesn't develop his character any way and only puts him in the promiscuous category.

And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature.

[Ruined_puzzle]

ITA with Dana.

Also apparently it's totally fine to make fun of certain people but when it comes to others, oh noes, they wll have your head off.

FallenAngelII I agree Shep is a h0re but I'd prefer Cadwell to be in command.

[PG15]

I'd rather think I was mocking his behavior, not opinion.

[FallenAngelII]

I'd rather think I was mocking his behavior, not opinion.

My... behavior? You mean the expression of said opinion? Because that's really all I've been doing here. And while some of my points were faulty (like the point where I thought Teer told John the others were coming before he slept with her), you have yet to provide any real arguments to counter the majority of them (in my opinion).

And at least I don't mock your opinions.

[Xaeden]

Chaya[/b] - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Teer (from now on referred to only as Squid). Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)!

They found her on a planet with a space gate, so there was no way she could've been a Genii spy. On the other hand Mckay was worried that they might be another technologically advanced race who was pretending not to be, but Weir approved of the tour and Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her how the systems worked so he was not acting alone. They all thought that the benefit of getting their hands on a possible ZPM or finding a sanctuary far outweighed the risk.

[prion]

I have no problem with any of hte characters getting a 'little action' as well, none of them are monks, but it should be few and far between because this is SGA, not a soap opera.

Anyway, it didn't bother me that Shep kissed Larrin. What DID bother me was the timing. Sorry, but you let wussy wraith slink out on his own good word that he'll return to his ship and leave? Uh huh. Sorry, but neither shep nor larrin were doing the smart thing - escorting the dangerous wraith back to his ship or at least monitoring him on the lsd. No no, they were too busy grabbing each other and Shep was, sigh, dumb enough to fall for that. after all the stuff larrin pulled, i wouldn't trust her to empty my cat's kitty litter. he had the gun and he let her get her hands on it.

i'd fault sheppard for this but instead i'll fault the writers (yes, more than one no matter what anybody says as the producers have final say on what ends up on screen) for not giving us a more credible way of shep losing the ship. i honestly would have believed it more if shep turned his back for a second and she clobbered him.

[FallenAngelII]

They found her on a planet with a space gate, so there was no way she could've been a Genii spy. On the other hand Mckay was worried that they might be another technologically advanced race who was pretending not to be, but Weir approved of the tour and Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her how the systems worked so he was not acting alone. They all thought that the benefit of getting their hands on a possible ZPM or finding a sanctuary far outweighed the risk.

I'm not saying she must've been a Genii spy, but after the Genii debacle, he should've been much more careful with strangers. She could've had ulterior motives for any number of reasons.

Also, they obviously have high technology and according to the Genii, they were once a great confederation. Maybe a lost Genii faction.

I doubt Rodney would've gone into detail about exactly what consoles did what and John took said woman on a tour on his own. She could've turned around, drawn a gun out of her hair and taken him hostage at any point. You do not bring a stranger into Atlantis and then wander off alone with them for hours on end.

And this is what transpired in that episode:
SHEPPARD: Come back to Atlantis... see who we really are...Once Othara learns more about us...

John, without discussing it, at all, with anyone decided to spring this suggestion on Chaya (after (c)overtly flirting with her, what with the "I was hoping you'd say that" when she said she'd make tea and being "stunned by her beauty when he first laid eyes on her" and all), despite Rodney's obvious dislike and distrust (not yet so very obvious, though) for her.

If Elizabeth or Rodney had anything to say, I'm sure he smoothed them over.

Elizabeth suggested a "full tour". I doubt such a tour would include "And that console controls this and that" but more "And this is the room with the nice mosaic". Rodney suggested he'd tag along to explain some systems John had no idea of what they did, he did not say that he'd tell Chaya how to work them or what consoles controlled them.

The full tour could also just mean "And over there is a big machine that handles the climate", nothing Evil Aliens would have any real use of in case of a foothold.

John also revealed really priviliged information to her:
* That they came from a planet called Earth in another galaxy
* He also told her they came through the Stargate and cannot return
* That he was the one who woke up the Wraith
* He pointed out with consoles controlled what: Main control, environmental controls (like the halon gas dispenser-thing), communications

You usually don't tell strangers information like this just to be friendly after a botched Genii invasion.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Why do you ignore a great deal of my talking about my definition of a slut? It's ok to be sexually promiscuous as long as you have no problems acknowledging it, owning up to it and declaring it your way of life (or at least a personal preference).

Because it's not an accurate definition, you can't call a man a slut! Check the dictionary definition. If you want to still maintain that he's a slut, then your argument is flawed from the onset. Why would anyone go around saying that they are a slut and they sleep around. Sex is between two people, and not something that should be broadcast throughout the galaxy, so sorry, that may be my very prudish view, but who's business it it who you sleep with? So if Shep went round saying he bedded everything that moved, would that reinforce your argument, or alleviate the feelings you currently have about him and his 'slut status'?

John, however, denies it every time he's accused of being promiscuous. He argues with Rodney every time he's called "Kirk" and he even lied (or at least omitted vital information) in his debriefing about the events in "Travelers" as none of the others knew about the little make-out session that most probably cost them an Ancient warship.

I also see that you've got a double standard. Only women can be sluts, you say? How so? Because if men are promiscuous, it's a status symbol and they are to be called players?

When has someone asked him if he was promiscuous? Do you go aroud telling all your friends/acquantances who you've slept with? It's considered bad form, and a tad tacky to be honest, and not very mature if you ask me. So the fact that he's actually not said anything just reinforces the fact of how mature he is, doesn't it? So he rolls his eyes at Rodney calling him Kirk... doesn't that eye roll in itself suggest something? Maybe a 'whatever'? He lied about sleeping with someone? OH how dare he keep something like that private. You mean he didn't even go into details about what positions he liked, or the fact that she took advantage after he let his guard down? Shame on him, didn't his mother ever teach him to share?

It's not my double standards hon, it's the dictionary's take it up with them.

Too bad Wikipedia and Dictionary.com disagree. In the modern day, the term slut can be used for men as well. I'm an equal opportunity offender and champion of equal rights and equal responsibilities for all.

Wikipedia is not the be all and end all. Why not check the Oxford dictionary for the proper definition.. oh and shall I just quote from Dictionary. com since you won't?

1.a dirty, slovenly woman. 2.an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.

Ooh lookey I was right! There's a shocker.

Men and women can be sluts all alike regardless of gender. If John would just own up to being promiscuous, I would start referring to him as The Guy Who Gets Around or something else other than "slut".

Actually no, the term slut is derogatory female term. Hell if a women sleeps around she's called a slut, if a man does it, he's a stud! That's the difference.

I'm glad Sam's on Atlantis and the military commander. I'm, however, not glad for anything else concerning Sam's presence on Atlantis.

John, before the arrival of Sam, had been the acting military commander of Atlantis for three years, yet he'd gone off world in almost every single episode and whumped countless time.

He was never "sitting behind a desk". In fact, have we ever seen his office?

So, your being involved with the anti Sam thread was what? Bad judgement?

I never said he was sitting behind a desk, his desk was probably Weir's office. Ah yes... the whumpage, you gotta love a sexy vulnerable man who gets whumped. *thud*

Sheer dumb luck. If he had handled himself better and not let his libido get the best of him, he'd have gotten an Ancient warship out of the deal instead.

Right, and if he didn't care about the two men who were about to be radiated he would have got the Aurora class. I personally think it's a disgracefull quality helping someone out when they've been near death, and expecting a bit of trust! Absolutely dispicable. The man should be shot for trying to do that... and you'd have preffered him to do what? Leave her there on the ground and locked her in... sorry that's not his style and being a 'fan of Sheppard's' as you said you were. you'd know that.

And it was sheer dumb luck that he managed to talk Larrin down. This was, after all, a woman who had no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to blackmail John to do her bidding. Not one to trust or to assume would be OK with an alliance, especially not after she kidnapped John and then tortured him for information she already knew.

Sheer dumb luck? So was it also sheer dumb luck when he got the Athosians on board to? Have you watched the ep again? Did you not see that they were in fact 'working together' when she shot him?

In "Sanctuary", John brought back Chaya, an unknown woman to Atlantis and proceeded to tell her which consoles did what. This was after the attempted Genii invasion, so if she had been a Genii spy, it would've been much easier for them to take ogver the city.

In "The Tower", he indulged himself into a little nookie while kept prisoner in an Atlantis-clone while his team was off doing what knows what (for all knew, they could all be dead).

And in "Travelers", he made out with an obviously hostile woman because she batted her eyelashes at him while a Wraith might have been lurking only a few feet away.

He also trusted Teyla on their first meeting and brought the Athosians back... so, was that the wrong choice?

*giggles* A little nookie! hehehe nice to know the language has been toned down. Actually as I said before he rejected her advances.

One kiss = making out? Right okay then? As I said to you before, us women have wonderful feminine wiles that can make a fair few men crumble to their knees. What can I say, it's a gift!

This is clearly a person who lets their libido get the best out of them even while in hostile situations and who is not fit to serve as military commander of Atlantis.

As opposed to a lot of people, I do not let myself be biased when posting about important matters. I couldn't care less that McShep will never be canon or that John romances women.

Right, so in CG, the Siege, The Return, Sateda, The Hive, shall I continue? In those eps he allowed his libido to make command decisions? That is what you're saying isn't it?

You seem to biased by your love for John to ever acknowledge that he could make a mistake. You also seemed to be biased by the fact that you're a heterosexual male (you are, right?) as you claim that only women can be called sluts.

*giggles* Ah I wondered when this old chestnut would come out, it reminds me of the first time we met FAII. You know, i've given this some careful thought hon, I only watch SGA for lusting after Shep, and I am so not interested in the technoogy, the races, the ships, the CGI, the score, the characters. None of that appeals to me. The only thing i'm actually interested in is Shep wearing the black t-shirt of yum and then taking it off! Which is why I absolutely detest any episodes where he's not the star! Oh wait... I loved TRW, and GUP and Sateda, so I was watching them in the hopes of what?

Oh no, I have no problem saying if he's wrong or out of line. So, once more your assumption of me and what I like has been shot down in flames, would you like to try again?

You're asking me if i'm male when I told you earlier that I had big boobs? Well, I suppose men can have big boobs. *gets a mirror and checks her plumbing* Nope I can definately say without a shadow of a doubt i'm female. Close FAII, but no cigar!

I

care, however, about the fact that John romances women at the most inopportune times, endangering himself and others. I couldn't care less if John went for girls like Teyla, Elizabeth, Keller or Sam. At least those are safe people to be around and he can trust them.

Him romancing Teyla wouldn't lead to any danger. However, he has seemingly few inhibitions and doesn't really seem to care about what happens to the rest of the world while he's off getting some tail as proven by Chaya, Maara and Larrin.

So you're concerns are that his 'bedding' would result in the destruction of Atlantis... from one woman? Don't you think he'd rather die himself than allow that to happen? There's this little thing called integrity, ya know!

If Larrin had been someone he'd known for a few days at least and who he knew could be trusted instead of, well, who she was, then yeah, that wouldn't really be much of a problem.

Teer he actually knew, but she was delusional and he knew that, so that was just weird.


Popular culture. If you don't know who she is (I mispelled her name, BTW, it's Kathy Griffin), Google her.

He did put his trust in her, they were working together, what would that suggest to you? I'm not interested in Kathy Griffin tbh, her thoughts and feelings have got nothing to do with this debate.

Point out a single detail I changed. The only name I might've gotten wrong is Maara because I can never remember her name. The rest, I just gave some nicknames.

Can you say squid?

Yes, because a Spider Sense is so reliable.

You obviously haven't heard about mine then I take it?

"My spidey senses are tingling! I should bring this woman I just met back to Atlantis, woo her with a picnic and proceed to give her a tour of Atlantis complete with intructions of what consoles do what!". And we know he was wrong about Chaya and that Rodney was right. Despite Chaya being friendly, she was lying. And John swallowed all of her lies! His spidey senses were way off. What if she had been lying about things other than who she was and her intentions?! What if she had been a Genii spy (this happened, after all, after the failed Genii invasion).

Spidey senses are 'gut feelings' when you work in certain situations, you rely on your gut, that's what i'm talking about. Most of the time you're right, but it's not falliable. However, there comes a point where trust comes into play. And sometimes it takes the braver person to make that first move and lower your guard as you never know where it can lead. In this case it may have lead to a tentative alliance... so how is that a bad thing?

Teer wasn't untrustworthy. But she was hardly completely sane. She had been stalking him for months. She was obviously off her rocker. Add to that that she had just told him that his friends were coming. So he knew they were gonna be there any minute, yet he decided to get some tail while he could. Also, she told him that he would Ascend with her and spend eternity with her, that he was destined to. He knows himself the best and as such, he knew that she was delusional. There was no way he'd Ascend with her. But he still had sex with this delusional little girl half his age because, well, it was fun.

Again with the stalker stuff! Because she had visions she was a stalker? Little girl? Hardly! So he slept with her, being with her for 6 months is not exactly jumping into bed with the first woman he set eyes on.

TBC

[Xaeden]

Here we see Weir came up with the idea of the tour on her own and is annoyed only that Sheppard had the same idea and promised it to Chaya before consulting her.

WEIR: I hope you don't mind but our doctors do require a medical exam of all offworld team members and our visitors but after that perhaps you would like a full tour.

CHAYA: I would love that.

TEYLA: Major Sheppard has already promised to do so.

WEIR: Of course he has.

Here Mckay offers to help show her advanced systems and Sheppard walks off without him not because he wants to be alone with her, but because Mckay was shooting off his mouth to her on the planet and Sheppard had to order him back to the jumper before he blew it.

MCKAY: Maybe I should tag along in case you have any questions the Major can't answe-

SHEPPARD: *holds hand up* I think I can handle it Rodney.

MCKAY: There are a lot of systems you know absolute-

SHEPPARD: Got it covered. *walks off*

Here Mckay references the Genii situation to Weir and despite it she still allows Chaya to tour the city. She of course would've been aware that Sheppard was showing her the city's systems. You have to realize how close they were to the Wraith attack at this point and how they really thought they would lose the city and had to find some place to escape to. Gaining her trust was a priority over protecting a doomed city.

MCKAY: Take another team back in the jumper. Scan the planet for energy signatures. Chaya's people won't have a clue what we're doing from orbit unless they are a technically advanced race which they pretend not to be. Which has happened before...*they stop*

Here Sheppard tells Telya that Weir wanted Chaya to see everything and Telya, realizing Sheppard likes her, calls him on how showing her a view of the city at night is doing what Weir wanted.

SHEPPARD: Doctor Weir wanted me to make sure that Chaya saw everything.

SHEPPARD: Well...not everything uh...Chaya mentioned she wanted to see the best view of the city at night which I think is at the top of the south west pier and...and since it's such a long walk I thought I'd...bring along a few provisions.

Here Weir is defending Chaya despite all the evidence Mckay is building against her (notice it's not Sheppard who is blinding doing so - Sheppard yells at Mckay later on but only because Mckay is handling it in his usual loud mouth manner).

MCKAY: Look the biometric differential is not insignificant Elizabeth. What I'm saying is...*quietly* the woman set off an alien alarm.

WEIR: Come on you don't know that for certain. Now Grodin says *McKay sighs* you are nowhere close to understanding what the nature of that device is.

MCKAY: There are too many unknown variables. There's the energy weapon, the fact that they claim never to have seen the Wraith...what about the fact that she's essentially a text book *Weir rolls eyes and walks off to office* case of healthy.

WEIR: All very mysterious yes. But what does it prove?

MCKAY: That we should give her a one way ticket back home.

WEIR: *comes back out* There is obviously something very...different about her yes. But that doesn't necessarily make her a threat.

MCKAY: It doesn't rule it out either.

WEIR: Then for the moment I think what we can gain by securing a treaty is worth the risk of her being here. *walks off*

MCKAY: Fine.

A few other things...

*Chaya had an X-ray so there was no way she could've been hiding a weapon and they likely patted her down before then.
*Sheppard telling her about Earth wasn't privilaged. The Wraith already knew about it so it didn't matter who he told at this point.
*Him telling her that they could not return to Earth was an important part of getting her to realize just how badly they would've needed her sanctuary.