Season 4 & Teyla Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Southern Red]

You are, of course, speaking of ANCIENT greeks. Folks that lived thousands of years ago. You're not speaking of current day greeks...at least i hope you're not. Because if i happened to be of greek descent, i'd be pretty offended to be called a racist <snip>.

Then again, i'd be pretty offended to have my ancestors called racist <snip>.

I dare you to find a race/persons that haven't been racist and narrow minded and petty in their history.

It's human nature to find a reason, any reason, to belive that oneself is 'better' than someone...anyone else.

Perhaps there is a better way to phrase the tendancy of one group to interpret tehmselves as better than others...even if they have to make up reasons for it.

Since Joe Flanigan's wife is of Greek ancestry, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that this would offend him.

I, for one, am immensely proud of my barbaric Celtic ancestors. *runs off to paint face blue*

[vaberella]

You are, of course, speaking of ANCIENT greeks. Folks that lived thousands of years ago. You're not speaking of current day greeks...at least i hope you're not. Because if i happened to be of greek descent, i'd be pretty offended to be called a racist prick.

Then again, i'd be pretty offended to have my ancestors called racist pricks.

Not to stem this OT, why would you be offended by some of your ancestors called racist pricks. Bloody hell, it was a common stage in our history...300 (The Movie) is a good modern depiction of conquering and slavery---to an extent. We're speaking of past history...not that past, if you consider that America really didn't give blacks citizenship until 1960 (but that's up for interpretation). In any event, I wouldnt' be offended because I can attest and admit that I have racist ancestry <---being of mixed african slave lineage (I'm Haitian)---I can't deny it, wouldn't want to anyway.

Now as for whom I'm speaking about, of course it would be Ancient Greeks. The direction of my post and in regards to what I was speaking about--would say the Ancient Greeks. But then for those who probably don't know history (which I find unlikely if they have a computer) would probably not know...I guess the same could be said about terminology though, not many people know the difference in a few eras. But overall yes, Ancient Greeks are likely----the Roman's don't happen to exist today just their descendants.

I dare you to find a race/persons that haven't been racist and narrow minded and petty in their history.

I won't deny that. But then, why would you be offended by someone calling your ancestors "racist pricks"?

It's human nature to find a reason, any reason, to belive that oneself is 'better' than someone...anyone else.

That I wholeheartedly disagree with and find absolutely ridiculous on so many levels. It's human nature to probably be wary if not scared, of those who are physically different from you----that I won't deny. But for people to believe themselves "superior" to other's is something else entirely. Many of the civilizations that had to endure pillaging and conquering ---after a period of cultural interpolation there was then convergence. Hence the reason many people associate China as a country through it's history of conquering and being conquered ingests cultural views and ideology into it's own.

Not to mention the dynasties and tribes that lived in peace and tranquility despite they're different religions and views. Not to mention the dynamics of slavery inherently changed in regards to the US and the Islands surrounding. Slavery in ancient times, let's say paticularly Africa was following the canon version of servitude until the people were integrated into the culture. Even in Ancient Greece and (including the period after Romans took over) there was stable intermingling of cultures and races.

Conquering much of the time wasn't about superiority, it was much more about gaining land mass and becoming a viable power. The US and Carribean history perpetrated primarily by the Spanish (speaking of Columbus and his mass murdering rampage) and the English/French changed the entire dynamic of "slavery" especially after the US gained it's independence---humans were property, slaves were basically always property in the Carribean, until Haiti gained it's independence---and it became the first successful slave revolt. But that didn't mean slavery wasn't dominant in other parts of the Carribean. The US unfortunately did turn it into a travesty---and probably made it seem as though this is an aspect of human nature. It's far that from what I've read of history---which is quite a bit; but that's not denying it's not out there. It just wasn't the focus.

Perhaps there is a better way to phrase the tendancy of one group to interpret tehmselves as better than others...even if they have to make up reasons for it.

Racist was the term I was told it was. How can you make it nicer? There's nothing nice about it.

Slightly OT, but the word "barbarian" is derived from a word was used by the Greeks (who explored extensively) to describe someone who was not Greek. That was all.

The Romans used the word to describe some of the Germanic peoples who continued to protest Roman rule, which changed over time to mean less civilized and ultimately uneducated peoples (because those silly Germans just wouldn't do what they were told to do).

The Gauls (which had Celtic bloodlines) are the modern day French, and the Romans never referred to them as "barbaric".

The Saxons were northern Germanic - becoming modern day Dutch peoples, but settled throughout England.

As for the "Anglos", I think you meant to say "Angles" who were of Germanic descent from the Baltic region who also settled in England and inter-married with the Saxon peoples, hence the phrase "Anglo-Saxon"

Referring to the ancient Greeks as you did, was rather uncalled for, and saying you don't like Saxons or Angles can be taken you don't like English peoples, or maybe white (anglo) people in general.

Be more careful how you word things.

First off you misquoted me several times. Secondly, I think I saw this written in wikipedia, you could just have easily just posted the link. I don't bother too much with wiki, I have texts at home on the subject.

Just to clarify fyi...because I just hate being misquoted. I never said the Roman's referred to the Guals as barbarians. You even quoted me and there was no mention of that. So what were you talking about in bold? I know quite well who the Gauls are...my lineage is testament to that.

As for Anglo's, I know they are Angle's...I just like Anglo (cool word) and easier for those who know Anglo-Saxon; a lot of people don't know them as Angles. Further more to the statement in blue, which shows to me you didn't read my post...when did I say I didn't like the Anglo-Saxon's? I said I wasn't a fan. I read history, I have my favorite conquerers, pirates, dictators, Queens, Kings, history makers in essence...and the list goes on---I like the Mongols and the Chinese, not much of a fan of the Japanese (although they had their moments), Romans and a few African groups. But that's me...what is your deal?! Plus how can I hate the English...rubbish!!! I think your statement was utter nonsense in reflection of my post.

As for the rest of your statement in red and what I stated "as uncalled for." I have a right to it. If you looked up the term barbaric it's a crude term to denote uncivlized and it was a prejudice term created by the Ancient Greeks for those outsiders...since I saw you quoted wiki---it's stated in wiki too. So in essence I was right to say they were racist pricks. I have problems with racist---no matter if they were in the past; that's just me. You might be okay by the term they used on people's different from them to show how superior and perfect they (Ancient Greeks) were. So no, I won't choose my words more carefully, because they were chosen for a specific reason.

Now I don't agree with vaberella's uber-intense tone when addressing this issue, but I think it's fairly obvious she was talking about Ancient Greeks. The past tense and the mention of Romans tipped me off at least, but I could be wrong.

You found me uber-intense? Racism and prejudice paticularly annoy me by those who consider themselves civilized and cultured...as the Ancient Greeks. But talking about History/Politics/Religion gets me all excited.

At any rate, I think the little keywords like "primitive" and "barbarians" (something that I believe westerners used to describe Mexicans and American Indians in the 1800s because of their wildly different cultural lifestyles) are used in a more classist manner, and probably have less to do with race - even if minimally so. It's definitely been a way of differentiating which group of people has more access to education, technology, etc. That's how I relate it to the Stargate universe anyway.

True, but I thought the term was mainly "Savages" to refer to the Mexicans and American Indians and Blacks (sometimes)? That's why there is talk of the "Noble Savage" <---utter non-sense. So now, I'm all intense again.

[the dancer of spaz]

You found me uber-intense? Racism and prejudice paticularly annoy me by those who consider themselves civilized and cultured...as the Ancient Greeks. But talking about History/Politics/Religion gets me all excited.

Yeah, I found it uber-intense. Not enough to raise my blood pressure or lose sleep at night. More of a, "Whoa, OK," sort of thing. You're clearly passionate about the issue, but I can assure you that I can relate.

True, I thought the term was mainly "Savages" to refer to the Mexicans and American Indians and Blacks (sometimes)? That's why there is talk of the "Noble Savage" <---utter non-sense. So now, I'm all intense again.

I've heard "barbarians" and "savages." Both were applied because the men hunted for their food, the women were allowed to leave their house, and *gasp* were considered to be just as integral to the family's survival as the men. The Athosians strike me as having the same sort of nomadic, gender-neutral cultural practices.

ETA: As for Teyla's character development, as she awaits motherhood, it'd be cool if we heard more about her mother, and about her relationship with both of her parents.

[vaberella]

Yeah, I found it uber-intense. Not enough to raise my blood pressure or lose sleep at night. More of a, "Whoa, OK," sort of thing. You're clearly passionate about the issue, but I can assure you that I can relate.

It's history. I love it. You should have know me in school (working on my masters and a few more bachelors----I'm crazy in my classes). We had this wicked class where I was Russia...
You had to choose a country and you can make alliances and create wars. It was a cool class. Of course I took China as an alliance and we went to war with Europe and America...I won (I could say "we" but China was reluctant---chicken, we still won)). It just needed reorganization. We had a small problem with what langauge would dominate. I allowed Chinese--I have a thing about the culture.

We had to follow the Vabby world order. It was fantastic.

***I know, I know...I spat on the Peace of Westphalia, but me don't care!!!

I've heard "barbarians" and "savages." Both were applied because the men hunted for their food, the women were allowed to leave their house, and *gasp* were considered to be just as integral to the family's survival as the men. The Athosians strike me as having the same sort of nomadic, gender-neutral cultural practices.

ETA: As for Teyla's character development, as she awaits motherhood, it'd be cool if we heard more about her mother, and about her relationship with both of her parents.

See I heard more so "savages" in relation to the natives of America. But I can see "barbarian" being used. I do agree with you in regards to the barbarian term for those who hunted. Yes the treatment of women is amazing, isn't it? I would have loved to be a Sioux or Aztec woman, they just had coolness. Of all the women Ethiopian----bloody hell to be Makeda...just for a day (the night she scored with Solomon) Oooh, to be one of the Aka Pygmy people---it would be wicked. The women are the hunterers and gatherers and the men stay home and breastfeed. Wicked isn't it?! Maybe for my anthropology thesis, I'll do an ethnography of them.

In relation to Teyla I fully agree. This is why I had to disagree with Teyilia's point. I don't want to relate the crude terminology of "barbarian" to her people, but her people do live as those of "barbarian" tribe. Much like Sioux people. They are nomadic, they live in tipis and using viking terminology, after watching Rising seem to have a Longhouse (or a Yurt-style) home; with the tipis for the families surrounding. Basically Teyla's people are a good melding of many hunter-gatherer cultures and their basic (nicer word for "primitive") living structure.

[GateLadyM]

Just for fun - I looked up "Barbarian" in the Dictionary:

(In ancient and medieval periods) a. a non-Greek.
b. a person living outside, esp. north of, the Roman Empire. (Among Italians during the Renaissance) a person of non-Italian origin. (Loosely) a foreigner.

Barbarian - A Greek word used to denote one of another nation. The word more definitely designates those nations of the Roman empire that did not speak Greek. It simply refers to one speaking a different language. This word does not bear the meaning it does in modern times.

Modern barbarians would be bloodly and murderous. I wouldn't apply the word to Teyla's people. I would consider them as a "farming community". Since they had once been highly advanced (as the remnants of their city suggests), I would think it wouldn't take much for them to pick up technology.

[Skydiver]

I won't deny that. But then, why would you be offended by someone calling your ancestors "racist <snip>"?

I haven't been, but some have been.

My ancestry is a soup of
dutch, french, indian, swedish and who knows what else. I'm sure at some point in my ancestry one 'side' of the family would have happily murdered the other side.

Still, that phrase (racist pricks) HAS offended people on this very thread.

That I wholeheartedly disagree with and find absolutely ridiculous on so many levels. It's human nature to probably be wary if not scared, of those who are physically different from you----that I won't deny. But for people to believe themselves "superior" to other's is something else entirely. (

They do it all the time. Minimizing one 'race' to promote one's own.

the europeans saw the native americans as 'primitives' to justify subjugating them. the romans did the same with anyone and everyone they invaded. One indian tribe would believe itself 'better' than those they are attacking and killing.

However...i do think that we are dramatically veering off the topic of teyla and season four. So let's get back to the speculation please, and leave the sociology for another thread

[vaberella]

Just for fun - I looked up "Barbarian" in the Dictionary:

(In ancient and medieval periods) a. a non-Greek.
b. a person living outside, esp. north of, the Roman Empire. (Among Italians during the Renaissance) a person of non-Italian origin. (Loosely) a foreigner.

Barbarian - A Greek word used to denote one of another nation. The word more definitely designates those nations of the Roman empire that did not speak Greek. It simply refers to one speaking a different language. This word does not bear the meaning it does in modern times.

Modern barbarians would be bloodly and murderous. I wouldn't apply the word to Teyla's people. I would consider them as a "farming community". Since they had once been highly advanced (as the remnants of their city suggests), I would think it wouldn't take much for them to pick up technology.

Where are there modern "barbarians" to mean the above? Do you mean the modern terminology of "barbarians"? I will say, as I stated earlier the Barbarian Age/era/period (this is speaking in context to the European tribes ---described as barbarians in some history books) was pretty bloody, in effect murderous. But when you break them down to communities (because they were communities of people), and from what we know of the Vikings, Anglo (Angles), Gauls and so on and so forth---because there were many of them. They had farming communities and were established albeit "primitive" civilizations, some of which were also nomadic. Teyla's people therefore most likely fall into that category.

Lastly, the "barbarian" definition you have and it's origin is pretty clean for something that has an extremely negative connation. But it does mean those outside Greece, but from all the texts I've read it wasn't "only" in relation to language. It's like the n word for those of african descent, it's like "mudblood" for humans in HP (). It's interesting how different books, different writers write aspects of history. Well what can one say, people are taught in some schools that the Statue of Liberty was painted green.

I haven't been, but some have been.

My ancestry is a soup of
dutch, french, indian, swedish and who knows what else. I'm sure at some point in my ancestry one 'side' of the family would have happily murdered the other side.

Still, that phrase (racist pricks) HAS offended people on this very thread.

Probably offensive in the sense crude. But I don't see offensive in the sense of personal affront to one's ancestry. I can totally relate to mixed ancestry, of the ones I know, I have German, French, Spanish and african slave of probably many countries---but 100% Haitian. It's cool, but my whole happy claim to fame is the fact that several of my great to the 6th or 7th power family members were participants in the 13 year Haitian Revolution. I know several of one side murdered the other. It was in the midst of guerilla warfare...what can be done.

They do it all the time. Minimizing one 'race' to promote one's own.

the europeans saw the native americans as 'primitives' to justify subjugating them. the romans did the same with anyone and everyone they invaded. One indian tribe would believe itself 'better' than those they are attacking and killing.

However...i do think that we are dramatically veering off the topic of teyla and season four. So let's get back to the speculation please, and leave the sociology for another thread

You're not entirely correct in regards to the Romans. It's not full proof in regards to the Indian tribe, because many of them lived quite well for centuries within Americas (their fights were mainly territorial; again the dominance is less towards race and more about war then) until the Europeans came along. As for the Europeans and American Indians, Africans, and basically everyone else---you're correct.

But sure, back to Teyla. I shall omitt from the history tirades.

[PG15]

Here's an interview of Rachel Luttrell from ScifiQuest. Special thanks to morjana of SG1-Spoilergate for the heads up.

Some spoilerish highlights:

Indeed, the writers jumped at the chance to incorporate Luttrell's little bundle of joy into Teyla's arc.

"I'm so glad they did because it has given them these wonderful storylines and given me interesting shades to portray as an actor," says Luttrell. "Yeah, this will be one of the most colourful years for my character."

Usually the tough and determined warrior, could any maternal or nurturing instincts mean a softer Teyla?

"It is interesting you should say that because in my initial meetings with our producers, Brad Wright and Paul Mullie, they had said prior to finding out the news, the direction they wanted to take the character was quite dark and this season would be much weightier,"reveals Luttrell. "Teyla was not necessarily going to be vengeful and angry but those layers that are not light are going to start to play out. That is something they really wanted to work on and they haven't fully abandoned that. It has been something that has
been a threat throughout the first episodes, certainly in regard to the storyline in which she finds herself. This other layer, which is quite a huge one, of motherhood, is now adding an antithesis to the weight of that dark side. It is giving me a lot of interesting things to play with. So at the moment, no, we are not really playing with that lighter side. She is still
edging her way through the whole realization. "

With the father's identity unknown, could those Wraith genes affect her unborn baby?

"Well it will. In the episode we are shooting right now, it plays in quite a bit."

In addition, Teyla and Sheppard have undeniably shared a special bond, perhaps even bordering on romantic feelings, and her circumstances will only strengthen that relationship..

"We shot a scene a couple of days ago and Joe [Flanigan] and I were talking about the whole pregnancy. He said, 'You know what I think is going on is there is a lot of jealousy in terms of my own character and what that means for the two of them and their relationship. It is going to be interesting.'"

In Weirs absence, Colonel Samantha Carter has left Stargates military base on Earth to help run Atlantis. As the only two females on the core team, Teyla and Weir became fast friends so it becomes almost like starting over with Carter.

" Teyla and Carter are kind of on wobbly legs in terms of their relationship. In my mind, because Teyla had really grown to trust Dr Weir, they had a very trustful and respectful relationship as two strong women. Now that Carter has come in, there is a little bit of uncertainty. But we haven't had an opportunity to explore that. I hope that we do. I get along so wonderfully with Amanda and our characters could have a very cool dynamic."

Besides any personal and internal adjustments, Atlantis will find itself under attack by some familiar enemies and new space menaces.

"Oh gosh, the new villains. We encounter one in particular in Missing and they are called the Bola Kai.And you know what I like in them? I don't know if you watched Serenity, but they are sort of a tamed down version of the Reavers with a little more humanity. At least in their mythology. It is the same kind of brutality, it is the potential cannabilism. So we encounter that. They are the ones I fight, so it is pretty intense and great. Then the Replicators are a big force thus far. They are tying into Torri's storyline and how she is kind of potentially being taken over by that, so a great ally and friend may be shifting into something quite different. That is an interesting enemy. We'll see."

[vaberella]

^^ Thanks again PG.

Now I'll give my input on a few points. Well as a JTer I am excited by this. I'm borderline feeling vindicated and uber excited over the future "jealousy" since I think the kid isn't human, he'd be jealous of a wraith baby. But if Teyla is not talking he's going to want to know and probably be jealous assuming it's a guy. Good to know we'll be touching a bit on that.

I love her answer in regards to Weir. RL basically confirmed what I always expected. Weir and Teyla are far from friends and chummy. They respect and trust each other, that's undeniable, but for them to have a friendship. Unrealistic as that has never been shown on screen. The writers have tried to elude to it on screen but unfortunately it never came across for me. They were just not friends. I would have loved to see them as such, but 3 years way too late. But the respect is there...even if Weir disregards 99.9% of everything Teyla has ever said or warned against. ~sigh~

All in all, great looking out. I'm really looking forward to what's ahead, although except for the John stuff, I was aware of everything else. I hope the writers bother to develop a friendship at least between Sam and Teyla. Since after previewing missing I get the impression that Teyla will become quite close to Keller (facing deaths door together does that to a person.

As for the baby thing... RUFS pay up!!! I think my theory on Teyla's the daddy too might be true. Her DNA plays a part. I was right, I was right, I was right.

[Landers]

The whole "jealousy" thing is a big turn-off for me. I was looking forward to Teyla having new experiences and growing as a character, but now all this

Spoiler:

Sheppard is jealous and this pregnancy will drive them together ruins everything I was looking forward to. It just proves that the writers only know how to work with Teyla by making her someone's love interest.

I just want Teyla to be strong and stand up on her own and grow as a person.

[the dancer of spaz]

All in all, great looking out. I'm really looking forward to what's ahead, although except for the John stuff, I was aware of everything else. I hope the writers bother to develop a friendship at least between Sam and Teyla. Since after previewing missing I get the impression that Teyla will become quite close to Keller (facing deaths door together does that to a person.

I was actually hoping for that uncertainty between Sam and Teyla, so I'm glad. It took Liz and Teyla a while to get close, and then all of a sudden Liz is displaced... Had Sam and Teyla automatically been friends or friendly (as are the actors in real life), it would've come off as a bit fake and OTT.

I seems like Keller will be the driving force for new friendships, though. I can see her and Teyla bonding over the ordeal in "Missing," and it's been said that she and Sam will become friends.

Perhaps towards the end of the season Sam will have proven herself to Teyla, and Teyla can then open up to Sam a bit more.

And Landers, I know what you mean by it seeming childish. But I think there are moments in relationships between expecting couples when some guys get a bit childishly jealous over the possibilities of losing that one-on-one attention. It's realistic, even if it is a bit immature on Sheppard's part.

In this case, I don't think it's necessarily the romantic one-on-one attention that Sheppard will miss out on, but the very personal, very connected relationship they've always had will have to take a backseat.

Shippers can have a blast with that statement though, I'm sure.

[Ruffles]

RUFS[/size] pay up!!! I think my theory on Teyla's the daddy too might be true. Her DNA plays a part. I was right, I was right, I was right.

*snorts* Not yet. It's TEYLA's Wraith gene they are referencing. I'm still going with human dad. I didn't hear anything in there about George.

Does anyone know what ep they were filming when she did this interview?

In this case, I don't think it's necessarily the romantic one-on-one attention that Sheppard will miss out on, but the very personal, very connected relationship they've always had will have to take a backseat.

That's the way I see it too. Kinda like your best friend getting married. Priorities will shift, and the team dynamic will change.

[the dancer of spaz]

That's the way I see it too. Kinda like your best friend getting married. Priorities will shift, and the team dynamic will change.

Yep. And if you're of the belief that they're all one big family, the best friend/sibling-esque relationships that all the characters have could play a role as well. I wonder how Ronon will handle the news.

For Sheppard, I think Teyla is a grounding force, an anchor. He always has to coddle Rodney, keep an eye on Ronon, and support Elizabeth in her command. Of all the characters, Teyla's friendship doesn't require a whole lot of energy.

He doesn't have to worry about propriety and professionalism like he does with Elizabeth. He doesn't have to keep up the witty banter like he does with Rodney. He doesn't have to keep her in line like he does Ronon.

It's just there. Simple, sometimes understated. And now her attention will forever be focused elsewhere, on another little person who will more than likely be in danger a lot of time. I personally think it's interesting that JF chose to go that route. It's a very human approach to the characters' situation.

[Ruffles]

Yep. And if you're of the belief that they're all one big family, the best friend/sibling-esque relationships that all the characters have could play a role as well. I wonder how Ronon will handle the news.

For Sheppard, I think Teyla is a grounding force, an anchor. He always has to coddle Rodney, keep an eye on Ronon, and support Elizabeth in her command. Of all the characters, Teyla's friendship doesn't require a whole lot of energy.

He doesn't have to worry about propriety and professionalism like he does with Elizabeth. He doesn't have to keep up the witty banter like he does with Rodney. He doesn't have to keep her in line like he does Ronon.

It's just there. Simple, sometimes understated. And now her attention will forever be focused elsewhere, on another little person who will more than likely be in danger a lot of time. I personally think it's interesting that JF chose to go that route. It's a very human approach to the characters' situation.

Get out of my brain! That's exactly how I see them, all of them (oooo, sibling-esque! - good word). Many times she is the voice of reason (Irresponsible), the calm in the storm that is her team. Someone like that is easy to take for granted. I suspect their world (especially Shep's and Ronon's) will be turned upside down.

[Killdeer]

Yep. And if you're of the belief that they're all one big family, the best friend/sibling-esque relationships that all the characters have could play a role as well. I wonder how Ronon will handle the news.

For Sheppard, I think Teyla is a grounding force, an anchor. He always has to coddle Rodney, keep an eye on Ronon, and support Elizabeth in her command. Of all the characters, Teyla's friendship doesn't require a whole lot of energy.

He doesn't have to worry about propriety and professionalism like he does with Elizabeth. He doesn't have to keep up the witty banter like he does with Rodney. He doesn't have to keep her in line like he does Ronon.

It's just there. Simple, sometimes understated. And now her attention will forever be focused elsewhere, on another little person who will more than likely be in danger a lot of time. I personally think it's interesting that JF chose to go that route. It's a very human approach to the characters' situation.

I could happily handle it if that is the road they took, because I do see Shep and Teyla as being very close friends, and I agree - he depends on her a lot. I just don't see it as romantic, and I'll have a hard time if they go down that road. After all this time, it will feel rather forced. I see them more as maybe a Buffy & Xander thing, if you'll forgive the comparison.