The Anti Season 4 Thread (Spoilers). For complaints and misgivings ONLY.

[Anuna]

"*LALALALAAA* MY WORK IS PERFECT I AM A GENIUS AND I CAN'T HEAAAR YOOOU!"

There's a not-so-fine line between that and being mature enough to recognize where criticisms are valid. Industry professionals should be able to objectively analyze their own work and realize where it is not as effectively designed. The more free-spirited, freelancer artists generally are the ones who turn a blind eye to the world, often because they are already filthy rich and don't need to care what their critics say. (Other than for artistic growth, which is clearly not much of a concern to them either.)

Van Gogh was one of those. He died as a poor man because people thought his work was cr*p. So not of them are filthy rich.

What I meant is that truly creative people have a lot of confidence in their abilities and their work. They don't tell you "oh I'm a genius and you can't possibly be right". They will hear you out and take your words into consideration, but it won't threaten their ego.

Should be is the operative word. Often people do not, because their work is so close to their own heart. They have labored over it, poured their heart and soul into it ... to be able to see the flaw and accept it takes a lot. Not every human is capable of such acceptance.

That's also true and comes hand in hand with low self esteem.

[justhere1971]

Van Gogh was one of those. He died as a poor man because people thought his work was cr*p. So not of them are filthy rich.

What I meant is that truly creative people have a lot of confidence in their abilities and their work. They don't tell you "oh I'm a genius and you can't possibly be right". They will hear you out and take your words into consideration, but it won't threaten their ego.

That's also true and comes hand in hand with low self esteem.

Not being able to accept criticism for something that you poured your heart into does not equate to low self esteem in my book. It's lack of confidence because possibly the person has not realized how truly genius they are.
Perhaps this is a case of potato vs. poh-ta-toh.

Also, what are we talking about again? sorry I lost track.

[Anuna]

JM. and his lack of... anything.

No low self esteem doesn't equal not being able to accept criticism, but often goes together, as in, comes in the same package.

[Willow'sCat]

this is darren's annuoncement on spoilers

<> Joe's thread, i believe, is one of the exceptionis to the spoiler rule since joe's blog itself is spoiler heaven, thus any thread about it will also be 'attack of the killer spoilers'

Thanks but I did read his announcement and was pleased to hear season 3 was now open season but it is things like letting spoilers run free in the Joe Blog thread but not here... why even keep the spoiler warning in the title? What is the point? This is in the season 4 section (which had spoiler warnings) it is about being anti what is happening in episodes in season 4 (not 3 or 2 or 1)... seems obvious to me if you come into this thread you not only get anti talk but open spoilers.

Oh well, if we must spoil we must.

[Erised]

Hmmm

Low self esteem = accepting critisisms and trying to please those who critisise him.
Stupidity = not listening to others complaintd about their work that are backed up by evidence, such as low ratings.

JM doubts himself, as can be observed by his blog. You can see he's worrying about losing his job. <--(I think FP said that one in her LJ..not sure).
Every negative comment is followed by "Why don't you watch all of season 4?"

Damn if someone is not happy with completely screwing up show, no amount of good character stories are going to fix that because guess what! We've had Carter stories and we've had Teal'c stories. We haven't really had a Sheppard episode and that's about it. Either way, 4th season is way too late to beging to develop characters. Certain characters are thought of as useless because of sucky writing that is centered around hot girls with boobs that go for one-night-stands with Sheppard and fancy space guns.

[AutumnDream]

Van Gogh was one of those. He died as a poor man because people thought his work was cr*p. So not of them are filthy rich.

What I meant is that truly creative people have a lot of confidence in their abilities and their work. They don't tell you "oh I'm a genius and you can't possibly be right". They will hear you out and take your words into consideration, but it won't threaten their ego.



That's also true and comes hand in hand with low self esteem.

Van Gogh was incredible before he went all impressionist and drove everyone away with ten billion paintings of sunflowers. And if that's what he wanted to do, good for him. I don't think he was trying to be an "industry professional" though. For someone doing artistic work in a commercial capacity, a razor sharp understanding of one's craft is paramount since effective work needs to be produced on-demand. With that understanding of the mechanics and principles of effective design usually comes a greater ability for analytical thought and objectivity.

...usually.

[Skydiver]

JM doubts himself, as can be observed by his blog. You can see he's worrying about losing his job. <--(I think FP said that one in her LJ..not sure).
Every negative comment is followed by "Why don't you watch all of season 4?"

Joe also has a pressure that us general creative types don't have....if the public at large decides that my fic suck, no sweat. no harm, no foul

I don't have hundreds of peoples' jobs resting on whether or not i do 'good'

Joe's decisions literally affects the jobs and well being of a few hundred people

like no pressure

[borgprincess]

You write fic, Skydiver? It's so bad for me, but I can't resist the pull, lol. I get your point though. I can hate what I write and think it's rubbish and post it anyway on the off chance someone will like it. But that's a totally different scale to what JM deals with. I can understand the pressures on him without approving of his decisions, though.

*shrug* It still feels like Frankenstein to me. SGA started as an "entity" that was separate from SG - 1. it felt different - for whole 3 seasons and I loved that difference. To me, bringing Carter over was just a move to bring SG - 1 fans who didn't have interest in Atlantis over. It's a cheap trick in my eyes and it feels like a rebuffal.

I saw Joe Flanigan on the weekend [lol, like it's so casual, it happens all the time, yeah...] and he made some interesting comments when I asked if he thought that the producers were trying to make Atlantis more like Stargate, what with Amanda coming over:

Spoiler:

"He [Chris] also has a guest spot but that’s about it. The truth is that there are overlapping reality, SG-1 and Atlantis, we have a similar landscape that we all live in. We go through the Stargate and everything else. It’s not unreasonable that they would show up occasionally. But I’m the one who voiced a slight concern about bringing over too many characters from SG-1 before you lose your identity as the show. I think with Amanda, it pretty much stays there and occasionally, Michael or Chris will come on, but I don’t think you’re going to see too much more of that, so I think you’re ok. And it’s weird, because they’re really popular characters, people want to see them. And you have to be careful, you know, that you’re staying true to your show."

I think Joe's in tune with what the fans want. I like that he voices the opinion that 'hey, guys? Uh, this is SGA, not SG-1. If you've gotta bring Amanda over, whatever, but don't dilute our individuality anymore than that, 'kay?' Otherwise this isn't *our* show anymore.

I still am going to hope for a new season if it means Weir being back. I know a new season doesn't mean anything, but I am an optimistic person who will hope for the best.

Oh, god, I love Joe so much. No one even brought up Torri's name, or Elizabeth, they asked about his desire to have a combative relationship between Shep and Carter, and he goes on a tangent that reflects a lot of the problems I had with s4 and the reason that I'm anti:

Spoiler:

“"I miss Torri…it’s a tough position for everybody to be in. Because we all like Torri and we all like Amanda and we’re not producers, we’re just actors, we just tend to be enjoying ourselves and we’re mercifully spared of all that political junk.

So it was a slightly awkward thing to do and I have to say, it was interesting because we’d be shooting the first episodes with Amanda in it, and they said, “We just went right over the fact that Torri had died- WHOOM and we’re onto the next thing and I’m like, ‘Don’t you think we should kind of just stop for a minute and say, ‘Ohhh, I miss…I miss Dr Weir…? Now let’s go do something.’ And they were like, ‘Oh, yeah, that’s a great idea. That’s right, she did die, sentimentality, that’s good, I like that.’ The fact that we have to remind them sometimes shows how far they are down the road.

But this is science fiction, as you know, she could be back anytime, anyway, anyhow. And so she could- it could be Torri Higginson playing Colonel John Sheppard next season…”

The part in bold just made me laugh!

I also asked what his thoughts were on TPTB writing out all these characters, because that's the HUGEST problem that I have with SGA:

Spoiler:

"Why are they killing people off? That is a question best addressed to the producers. I am a fierce guardian of the actors. I love my actors and I defend them all the time and I will go to town on the producers and writers for the actors all the time which makes me a bit of a thorn in their side. But I’m okay with that. That’s kind of the character I play anyways, right? And so I am no longer privy to the inner workings of their thought process. I think initially they wanted to include me in all this and then they realized I was uncomfortable with their thought process. I, for example, was really upset when they got rid of Paul and they told me after they had done it. I think if they had told me beforehand, maybe I could have altered the circumstances a little bit.

And you know, it’s an interesting thing when you’re an actor, there is sometimes friction between producers and actors in terms of who has power and leverage, and this takes place on a lot of shows, and a lot less on our show, our show is not so much like this really. There will be an act sometimes to show who’s in charge. More importantly, there is a fictional reality, if there is such a term, there is a reality of our fictional universe which is that characters come and go and characters die and you’ll notice that the networks are pressuring the shows constantly to raise the stakes, kill characters. They want the audience to invest in characters and then kill them off. They want to create as much emotional mayhem as they can with the audience because they believe that is what attaches people to the show.

I think it’s pretty short-lived, you know, with Paul for example, I said ‘We’re going to kill him, we may get a short spike in the ratings but it’ll go back down. I don’t think we’re going to benefit at all from this type of thing.’ The audience is the opposite, they invest in a character, they want to see them...So...I’m just one voice. I don’t know what else to say about that. I’m still here!"

That is EXACTLY what I and a lot of other people have been saying here, Parisindy, remember that conversation about 'emotional investments'? He totally gets us. And it's a shame that the producers don't let him in on their decisions anymore, because if he had more leverage, the show would be so much better and I wouldn't have to be anti since he wouldn't let anyone go! I just don't know how he can make so much sense and the people in charge don't get what he's saying.

So what's with the ratings, guys??

Seriously, are they out yet? People have been talking about them for ages and yet I haven't heard anything...

[justhere1971]

You write fic, Skydiver? It's so bad for me, but I can't resist the pull, lol. I get your point though. I can hate what I write and think it's rubbish and post it anyway on the off chance someone will like it. But that's a totally different scale to what JM deals with. I can understand the pressures on him without approving of his decisions, though.



I saw Joe Flanigan on the weekend [lol, like it's so casual, it happens all the time, yeah...] and he made some interesting comments when I asked if he thought that the producers were trying to make Atlantis more like Stargate, what with Amanda coming over:

Spoiler:

"He [Chris] also has a guest spot but that’s about it. The truth is that there are overlapping reality, SG-1 and Atlantis, we have a similar landscape that we all live in. We go through the Stargate and everything else. It’s not unreasonable that they would show up occasionally. But I’m the one who voiced a slight concern about bringing over too many characters from SG-1 before you lose your identity as the show. I think with Amanda, it pretty much stays there and occasionally, Michael or Chris will come on, but I don’t think you’re going to see too much more of that, so I think you’re ok. And it’s weird, because they’re really popular characters, people want to see them. And you have to be careful, you know, that you’re staying true to your show."

I think Joe's in tune with what the fans want. I like that he voices the opinion that 'hey, guys? Uh, this is SGA, not SG-1. If you've gotta bring Amanda over, whatever, but don't dilute our individuality anymore than that, 'kay?' Otherwise this isn't *our* show anymore.



Oh, god, I love Joe so much. No one even brought up Torri's name, or Elizabeth, they asked about his desire to have a combative relationship between Shep and Carter, and he goes on a tangent that reflects a lot of the problems I had with s4 and the reason that I'm anti:

Spoiler:

“"I miss Torri…it’s a tough position for everybody to be in. Because we all like Torri and we all like Amanda and we’re not producers, we’re just actors, we just tend to be enjoying ourselves and we’re mercifully spared of all that political junk.

So it was a slightly awkward thing to do and I have to say, it was interesting because we’d be shooting the first episodes with Amanda in it, and they said, “We just went right over the fact that Torri had died- WHOOM and we’re onto the next thing and I’m like, ‘Don’t you think we should kind of just stop for a minute and say, ‘Ohhh, I miss…I miss Dr Weir…? Now let’s go do something.’ And they were like, ‘Oh, yeah, that’s a great idea. That’s right, she did die, sentimentality, that’s good, I like that.’ The fact that we have to remind them sometimes shows how far they are down the road.

But this is science fiction, as you know, she could be back anytime, anyway, anyhow. And so she could- it could be Torri Higginson playing Colonel John Sheppard next season…”

The part in bold just made me laugh!

I also asked what his thoughts were on TPTB writing out all these characters, because that's the HUGEST problem that I have with SGA:

Spoiler:

"Why are they killing people off? That is a question best addressed to the producers. I am a fierce guardian of the actors. I love my actors and I defend them all the time and I will go to town on the producers and writers for the actors all the time which makes me a bit of a thorn in their side. But I’m okay with that. That’s kind of the character I play anyways, right? And so I am no longer privy to the inner workings of their thought process. I think initially they wanted to include me in all this and then they realized I was uncomfortable with their thought process. I, for example, was really upset when they got rid of Paul and they told me after they had done it. I think if they had told me beforehand, maybe I could have altered the circumstances a little bit.

And you know, it’s an interesting thing when you’re an actor, there is sometimes friction between producers and actors in terms of who has power and leverage, and this takes place on a lot of shows, and a lot less on our show, our show is not so much like this really. There will be an act sometimes to show who’s in charge. More importantly, there is a fictional reality, if there is such a term, there is a reality of our fictional universe which is that characters come and go and characters die and you’ll notice that the networks are pressuring the shows constantly to raise the stakes, kill characters. They want the audience to invest in characters and then kill them off. They want to create as much emotional mayhem as they can with the audience because they believe that is what attaches people to the show.

I think it’s pretty short-lived, you know, with Paul for example, I said ‘We’re going to kill him, we may get a short spike in the ratings but it’ll go back down. I don’t think we’re going to benefit at all from this type of thing.’ The audience is the opposite, they invest in a character, they want to see them...So...I’m just one voice. I don’t know what else to say about that. I’m still here!"

That is EXACTLY what I and a lot of other people have been saying here, Parisindy, remember that conversation about 'emotional investments'? He totally gets us. And it's a shame that the producers don't let him in on their decisions anymore, because if he had more leverage, the show would be so much better and I wouldn't have to be anti since he wouldn't let anyone go! I just don't know how he can make so much sense and the people in charge don't get what he's saying.

Seriously, are they out yet? People have been talking about them for ages and yet I haven't heard anything...

You know first of all I am totally jealous ATM. You got to see Joe! And ask him questions! Did you ask them during q&a or signing? Did you take a million pictures? Are you going to post them?
Secondly, he totally gets us! He's that one voice!!!! I wish the producers had integrity like his.

[borgprincess]

So is that confirmed that

Spoiler:

Elizabeth dies, or is it him talking about the fact that they left her out there in lifeline? Was he talking about that ep (which we know she comes back from) or This Mortal Coil, which I think is the one that really sounds like she's going to die, given the name. Ugh. If they kill her off, they're insane.

I think that:

Spoiler:

he meant they left her out there in LL, since Torri's supposed to be in one and a half more eps. People had already mentioned spoilers for LL and he didn't want to make more spoilers that she'd be back later in the season, I guess. That's my interpretation. He was specifically referring to the outcome that everyone but Shep believes in for LL, not Mortal Coil.

I hate that ep title too!

Anyway, gots to go. My one hour at the library is up. *sniffles*

[justhere1971]

So is that confirmed that

Spoiler:

Elizabeth dies, or is it him talking about the fact that they left her out there in lifeline? Was he talking about that ep (which we know she comes back from) or This Mortal Coil, which I think is the one that really sounds like she's going to die, given the name. Ugh. If they kill her off, they're insane.

Oh goodness! I hope that's not what it means. I hope it's more like she's

Spoiler:

taken by the replicators and they don't know her status - they presume she's dead, until they find her ...

[Ruined_puzzle]

Aw, JF is awesome. ZOMG, he needs to be on a good show once SGA gets cancelled, a show where they actually listen to him because he makes alot of sense.

[ToasterOnFire]

So what's with the ratings, guys??

I have a feeling that Joe M. is going to stay mum on the Live rating. We won't see them until 2 weeks after the air date or if they show up in a press release (which generally only happens if there's good news or news spun as good news ).

It sounds like JF has a good idea of how people realistically respond to big events - maybe he could be part of the next PTB?

[Chrysalis]

Aw, JF is awesome. ZOMG, he needs to be on a good show once SGA gets cancelled, a show where they actually listen to him because he makes alot of sense.

Absolutely. He has enough of a brain to get the audience and the way the audience thinks, which I think is sadly lacking among tptb. I think they sit in their ivory tower too much, and don't get a real feel for what's going on out there. JF has done conventions. He knows how the fans feel about Paul and Torri.

I'm amazed that he's the only one who's come out and said that they miss them. The rest of them seem to be saying nothing for some reason. Maybe they're worried they'll be the next one to be offed if they say something!

[Ruined_puzzle]

Absolutely. He has enough of a brain to get the audience and the way the audience thinks, which I think is sadly lacking among tptb. I think they sit in their ivory tower too much, and don't get a real feel for what's going on out there. JF has done conventions. He knows how the fans feel about Paul and Torri.

I'm amazed that he's the only one who's come out and said that they miss them. The rest of them seem to be saying nothing for some reason. Maybe they're worried they'll be the next one to be offed if they say something!

They can't get rid of Joe, but OMG I thought the same thing about Torri. Joe needs to be careful. lol.