Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Anuna]

*intentionally refuses to meet Anuna's eyes while whistling and looking down at feet* NO! Or more politely, um...can't. Plate full, cup runneth over...all that.... *goes back to playing Angry Birds* Sorry sweets.

AHHHH. I'll ask in a month or so again.

[TheLadyMore]

Hello Sparkites! Hope all are well today

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

Have you also been to Disney World? Disneyland would fit in the parking lot. Quite a dif.

Nope, haven't been to the World yet. I've lived vicariously through everyone else's trip reports.

I doubt JF would agree with hanging out with Mickey. Remember his tweets from Disney? LOL

*snerks* See, that's why he was supposed to go over to Epcot and get some beer!

Wow, two additional years and they only got 10% more explored? (Since SG-1 answered it for him in "The Pegasus Project")

JACKSON: How much of the city have you been able to explore?

WEIR: Just over half now, but we have the city schematics… so we have a fairly good idea of what's where. Still…there are entire sections of the city and whole systems we don't even pretend to understand.

And that was around, timeline wise, season 3. Of course, they probably didn't bother exploring anymore after Weir was gone--maybe it wasn't smart because as we all know they were already trying to save money by using less powerful light bubble bulbs. Exploring in the dark would probably be more dangerous.

I had also been thinking about TPP this morning. The impression I got from Weir's explanation was that they had the city blueprints (and probably some information in the database), but they'd only been able to actually send teams of people out to do an in-depth physical exploration of about half the city by that time. I'll stick my neck out on a limb and suggest that Mallozzi may have been thinking along those same lines; if the additional discussion we've had about mission priorities shifting after Weir's loss and exploration being set aside for more military matters is correct, then the small amount of additional exploration he's suggested does fit that scenario pretty well.

But yeah, the new environmental-awareness mandated energy reductions couldn't have helped, either.

LOL, exactly. Elizabeth gone, their light had extinguished... I'm being all poetic right now. On a more serious note, how many great episodes we could have had, about city exploration?! Oh lame lame lame writers. You have a show called after an ancient city full of secrets yet never bother to explore it fully?

Hey, haven't I always said that Atlantis was pissed off because Earth wouldn't let them go after Elizabeth, so the city turned the lights off in protest?

That's kind of an interesting idea to think about. How did the change in administration and expedition priorities affect everyone? Did the city exploration basically stop after Elizabeth was lost? Maybe they shipped in more military personnel and shipped out scientists, just leaving a core team? *shrugs* I don't know - just some random thoughts. I always thought it was interesting that it went from being "the city" to being "Atlantis Base". I wish the show had actually dealt with some of these issues though.

It wouldn't surprise me if there had been a shift in priorities after Elizabeth's loss. They were essentially in armed conflict with two different enemies at that point, so I could certainly see exploration pushed to the side in favor of putting more effort into defensive measures. I agree, we really should've seen more of that though.

This has been one of my pet peeves all throughout. I thought the whole idea of the series was to explore the city. Then when they introduced John and his super gene, I thought he would have a big part in revealing the secrets of Atlantis and we'd find out just what powers he had in relation to the city. Then after a few half-hearted attempts to explore, nothing. In fact, fanfic has done a pretty good job of doing what they failed at. I love the ones when the city is almost sentient and John can communicate with her. I know JF said several times that he wanted more exploration and I loved the line in one ep where John called the city the "old girl". Once again major fail by TPTB.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Hmm, looks like we've got another of Joe's requests to fulfill in Atlantis Rising.

[Falcon Horus]

*in class, not paying attention obviously or making my last two exercises*

...my vidding software sucks so pelase? Someone? Anyone?

I can offer you Sony Vegas in portable form... but sorry no time for vidding cause I have a website to build - deadline is the 1st of February.

And also... I'm still working on those prompts. Anuna's in particular makes my muse do a lot of brooding.... Almost like Angel the Vampire.

[Southern Red]

Re Simon. I was thinking about him, and I don't think he is that evil. Unfair? Yes, definitely. But imagine yourself in his shoes. he was either dating Elizabeth, for a longer period of time, or perhaps even engaged to her? And suddenly she leaves him a tape, a freaking tape, saying she is leaving him? How was he supposed to feel, but hurt to some extent? I can't really blame him, but I wouldn't like to be in his shoes, that's a fact - someone you really care for, someone your ely on and trust leaves you like that? A tape?

I'm not blaming Elizabeth, but if you take a realistic look at the situation, she was unfair to him, too. She probably isn't easy to be in relationship with - that doesn't make her a bad person. It's just very difficult to follow her, given her profession. I think Simon did his best, tired to understand all the times when she went somewhere and the location and type of her job was classified. Compare him to John's ex wife, Nancy, she was in similar position, because of John's military career. In conclusion, I don't think Simon is a bad man. It's just that "sometimes love just ain't enough" (quoting a song). hating a character is pretty easy, but the fun part is when you try to imagine yourself in their shoes - especially if you're writing about them.

Sorry I missed this earlier. I meant to reply then.

I never thought Simon was evil either, just self absorbed. His "research" was very important to him and since he didn't have all the info, he was not able to understand Elizabeth's obsession with Atlantis. He was just a flawed human in a difficult situation.

But I still think after she left him the tape explaining why she couldn't tell him all the facts, he should have been more understanding. Obviously their relationship had become humdrum and lacked passion. Meeting John must have really rocked her world. Not only was he the polar opposite of Simon but he was someone she never would have dated earlier due to her disregard for the military. They really learned a lot from each other.

[Anuna]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I meant to reply then.

I never thought Simon was evil either, just self absorbed. His "research" was very important to him and since he didn't have all the info, he was not able to understand Elizabeth's obsession with Atlantis. He was just a flawed human in a difficult situation.

But I still think after she left him the tape explaining why she couldn't tell him all the facts, he should have been more understanding. Obviously their relationship had become humdrum and lacked passion. Meeting John must have really rocked her world. Not only was he the polar opposite of Simon but he was someone she never would have dated earlier due to her disregard for the military. They really learned a lot from each other.

Yeah, possibly self absorbed, possibly too much alike Elizabeth, so there was no spark? But, if Elizabeth liked him enough to date him, I doubt he is a bad kind of guy. I think we just learned to see him as someone negative/an obstacle.

[TheLadyMore]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I meant to reply then.

I never thought Simon was evil either, just self absorbed. His "research" was very important to him and since he didn't have all the info, he was not able to understand Elizabeth's obsession with Atlantis. He was just a flawed human in a difficult situation.

But I still think after she left him the tape explaining why she couldn't tell him all the facts, he should have been more understanding. Obviously their relationship had become humdrum and lacked passion. Meeting John must have really rocked her world. Not only was he the polar opposite of Simon but he was someone she never would have dated earlier due to her disregard for the military. They really learned a lot from each other.

Meet John not only rocked her world but it begged the question....Simon Who?

[Anuna]

Meet John not only rocked her world but it begged the question....Simon Who?

It doesn't mean Simon was a jerk. Besides, if we consider canon, she didn't fall for John just like that, their working relationship and friendship started off a little rocky. It was building through season 1 and solidified through season two, which is why season one based fics, where they're already involved need to ahve good reasoning behind them. IMO of course. I don't imagine Elizabeth as a woman who falls in love at the first sight. John either, he was hurt enough times to become cautious, in fact, he's reluctant to give his heart, either to a friend or a potential lover.

[TheLadyMore]

It doesn't mean Simon was a jerk. Besides, if we consider canon, she didn't fall for John just like that, their working relationship and friendship started off a little rocky. It was building through season 1 and solidified through season two, which is why season one based fics, where they're already involved need to ahve good reasoning behind them. IMO of course. I don't imagine Elizabeth as a woman who falls in love at the first sight. John either, he was hurt enough times to become cautious, in fact, he's reluctant to give his heart, either to a friend or a potential lover.

What I think happened is when they met each other they felt some emotion, maybe an emotion of comfort in the beginning. I took a gender studies class this summer for my major so I have some idea on Human attraction. What I did see was some, minor latent signs betweeen In Rising, there were various points of eye contact between them like when they first entered Atlantis for instance and Elizabeth looks first directly at John. But agreeing with you on that one, there was definitely some reluctance.

Elizabeth most likely because she just left Simon behind which was heartbreaking and again agreeing with your point about John, his fear of Commitment, most likely stemming from his childhood.

I would write more but I must depart...hopefully I made sense...

[Probie]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I meant to reply then.

I never thought Simon was evil either, just self absorbed. His "research" was very important to him and since he didn't have all the info, he was not able to understand Elizabeth's obsession with Atlantis. He was just a flawed human in a difficult situation.

But I still think after she left him the tape explaining why she couldn't tell him all the facts, he should have been more understanding. Obviously their relationship had become humdrum and lacked passion. Meeting John must have really rocked her world. Not only was he the polar opposite of Simon but he was someone she never would have dated earlier due to her disregard for the military. They really learned a lot from each other.

It's pretty hard to be understanding when the person you love just left you a tape to inform you she/he decided to go far from you. I can't blame Simon. I thought Elizabeth was the "evil one" during this scene. I can understand her but I don't like the way she did it like I don't like the way Simon told her the fact he has another woman in his life. Is it clear?lol

[Anuna]

What I think happened is when they met each other they felt some emotion, maybe an emotion of comfort in the beginning. I took a gender studies class this summer for my major so I have some idea on Human attraction. What I did see was some, minor latent signs betweeen In Rising, there were various points of eye contact between them like when they first entered Atlantis for instance and Elizabeth looks first directly at John. But agreeing with you on that one, there was definitely some reluctance.

Elizabeth most likely because she just left Simon behind which was heartbreaking and again agreeing with your point about John, his fear of Commitment, most likely stemming from his childhood.

I would write more but I must depart...hopefully I made sense...

Yeah, it does, in fact make sense. I think they had some kind of connection, for multiple reasons - attraction, comfort, responsibility, fear of unknown, losing people right from the start, facing the danger etc. But that's just the base from which their connection grows and builds.

[Anuna]

It's pretty hard to be understanding when the person you love just left you a tape to inform you she/he decided to go far from you. I can't blame Simon. I thought Elizabeth was the "evil one" during this scene. I can understand her but I don't like the way she did it like I don't like the way Simon told her the fact he has another woman in his life. Is it clear?lol

It's a complicated thing - I don't think Elizabeth was evil, but a little unfair to him. However, things like this, it's what she lives for. Simon must have known it, and probably hoped that moment wouldn't happen, that she wouldn't find a dream where he couldn't follow her. But, she did, and it was larger than life, and not everyone can understand that, especially if they've been hurt. On the other hand, Elizabeth is a free spirit. You can't chain her down, that's who she is - IMO of course. The reason why John is good for her, is that he can follow where she leads, he doesn't have a problem with it.

[Southern Red]

I also think any idea that John and Elizabeth were actually together in S1 is very far fetched. I like that they were getting to know each other as friends first. If you go strictly by canon, which we tend to do here no matter how much it makes us want to kick something, they were never actually lovers. They had a deep deep friendship that was so wonderful to watch because of the bittersweet feeling that they were sacrificing their own personal happiness for the cause. As in a lot of shows, it seemed apparent that they would eventually get together. All the signs were there. If it wasn't being done deliberately, and I don't believe it was unless everybody involved with the show is lying, it's scary to think how obvious it would have been if done on purpose.

By S2 I don't think she was even ready to admit to herself that she had feelings for John. And I always thought he considered her out of his league. But he sure did enjoy flirting with her and didn't treat her like anyone I know treats his boss. In fact, my son has a female boss. I daresay he doesn't sit on the corner of her desk. LOL

I remember reading that the actor who played Simon whose name I can't recall right now, said that he thought in the beginning that they were married but was then told no they weren't. So at the time that told me TPTB may have backed off a bit when they saw the Sparky chemistry and considered playing up the connection. Otherwise, why stage their scenes like they did. There was no need for the balcony, the desk sitting and a whole lot more of it. I've gotten off topic with my rant, but what I'm trying to say is we have to look at Simon the same way we do Mike. He's a plot device, pure and simple. First to show us she is unavailable so we won't ship her with anyone. *falls down laughing* And later to get rid of him, spiff up her makeup and make her more feminine to show us maybe she will be shipped with someone. Just TPTB being bi-polar.

[Scary Kitty]

Sorry I missed this earlier. I meant to reply then.

I never thought Simon was evil either, just self absorbed. His "research" was very important to him and since he didn't have all the info, he was not able to understand Elizabeth's obsession with Atlantis. He was just a flawed human in a difficult situation.

But I still think after she left him the tape explaining why she couldn't tell him all the facts, he should have been more understanding. Obviously their relationship had become humdrum and lacked passion. Meeting John must have really rocked her world. Not only was he the polar opposite of Simon but he was someone she never would have dated earlier due to her disregard for the military. They really learned a lot from each other.

Bingo. The part I bolded is a major factor that I think some people seem to have forgotten. Elizabeth COULD NOT tell Simon about Atlantis. He did not have security clearance to know about it; the very first thing Elizabeth says in her video message to Simon in "Rising" is:

Simon, if you're watching this, it means the President has been kind enough to grant you security clearance.

When she recorded that message, she didn't even know for sure that Simon would be granted clearance, but she did everything she could to try to make that happen so that he'd at least know the truth about what she was really doing. At the end of the day, the final decision on that was out of her hands. Like I said a couple of days ago, sure, she could've said no to going to Atlantis and stayed on Earth, but I've got to wonder how she could've lived with herself, knowing that the expedition needed her skills but had to do without.

It's a complicated thing - I don't think Elizabeth was evil, but a little unfair to him. However, things like this, it's what she lives for. Simon must have known it, and probably hoped that moment wouldn't happen, that she wouldn't find a dream where he couldn't follow her. But, she did, and it was larger than life, and not everyone can understand that, especially if they've been hurt. On the other hand, Elizabeth is a free spirit. You can't chain her down, that's who she is - IMO of course. The reason why John is good for her, is that he can follow where she leads, he doesn't have a problem with it.

That final scene between Elizabeth and Simon in "The Intruder" sums it up beautifully:

SIMON: You're the adventurer, not me.

WEIR: But I'm not -- I mean at least I wasn't, not before. Look, the first time I stepped through that Gate, I was terrified. I knew I wasn't prepared for what I was getting into, but I took a chance.

SIMON: I know, and I'm proud of you for that.

I think Simon must've realized it well before Elizabeth did. Did he hold out on telling her because he knew she hadn't quite figured it out and wanted to try to break it to her gently, or did he just not know what to say? Or maybe a bit of both?

Oh, and SR? Bipolar? Yeah, that would explain quite a few things. LOL!

[Anuna]

I also think any idea that John and Elizabeth were actually together in S1 is very far fetched. I like that they were getting to know each other as friends first. If you go strictly by canon, which we tend to do here no matter how much it makes us want to kick something, they were never actually lovers. They had a deep deep friendship that was so wonderful to watch because of the bittersweet feeling that they were sacrificing their own personal happiness for the cause. As in a lot of shows, it seemed apparent that they would eventually get together. All the signs were there. If it wasn't being done deliberately, and I don't believe it was unless everybody involved with the show is lying, it's scary to think how obvious it would have been if done on purpose.

By S2 I don't think she was even ready to admit to herself that she had feelings for John. And I always thought he considered her out of his league. But he sure did enjoy flirting with her and didn't treat her like anyone I know treats his boss. In fact, my son has a female boss. I daresay he doesn't sit on the corner of her desk. LOL

I remember reading that the actor who played Simon whose name I can't recall right now, said that he thought in the beginning that they were married but was then told no they weren't. So at the time that told me TPTB may have backed off a bit when they saw the Sparky chemistry and considered playing up the connection. Otherwise, why stage their scenes like they did. There was no need for the balcony, the desk sitting and a whole lot more of it. I've gotten off topic with my rant, but what I'm trying to say is we have to look at Simon the same way we do Mike. He's a plot device, pure and simple. First to show us she is unavailable so we won't ship her with anyone. *falls down laughing* And later to get rid of him, spiff up her makeup and make her more feminine to show us maybe she will be shipped with someone. Just TPTB being bi-polar.

Yes, to all that you said - I did commit season one shippy fic (eep, hides), but when you take a closer look at it, it's not OMG! This is eternal love! We must be together!!1!!11 thing - there's tension, and issues and they're still testing the waters, so to speak. There's connection too. Here, Decompression, based on episode Hot Zone. (M rated content alert, tho).

I also like that their relationship is a subtle one, and if this was a good show, written by good writers, then they would have been together. But, as you said PTB were bi polar, re-vamped her and then decided that we all shouldn't use our heads to think, shouldn't ship the ship we like and invented Mike the Obnoxious. (upon a closer look, he was like a pale version of John). We all know what Marty G was trying to accomplish there and failed. No, marty, it's NOT obvious. LOL. desk sitting, balcony moments, tons of eye$ex, that WAS pretty obvious. Your neon signs didn't work. End of rant.

Anyway it's been a long day - bedtime for bonzo!

FH, I would LOVE if you could send me Sony Vegas! YAY!