Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

I actually got the impression that he was the younger of the two, but not by much.

[pkprd869]

Ah so much ground to covver. SR I think if they played up a triangle we'd have gotten The O.C. Atlantis. It would have to be subtle, just one element of a Teyla and Lizzie conflict. But I SK is right, TPTW couldn't pull it off.

I do like the link you gave about the Byronic hero. (I don't think Tony Stark is a Byronic hero, more the likeable rake or rogue but that's another discussion.) I think many sources take the brooding thing a bit far. The hero can appear that way or got that far with respect to his introverted personality and feelings. To me Byron's heroes in his own wroks don't get to the point of brooding, but I admit it's only my opinion. Byron's heroes do express their feelings through music and other arts, but they even do that privately. I could see Shep strumming his acoustic reflecting on his own troubles. Many archtypes do overlap, so he does fit many.

In re Shep's family life, I think he related more with his mom than his dad. I see his mom as more of a free spirit and somebody who kept his dad grounded in the family life. The impression I got from Shep is that his dad is a work obsessed guy and so is his brother. Not sure which Sheppard brother is older. I want to lean toward John. Being older he got force fed the "family legacy" line and then when his mom died he couldn't take and became the prodigal son.

Is Lizzie's pocket watch from her dad or grandpa? Knowing more about Lizzie's folks would give a nice view of her own belief system. Perhaps explain some of her anti-proliferation ideas, her civil unrest record, (I think it was mentioned during the Jessica Stein episodes) and style of diplomacy.

Man, all that work I need some chow

[Sparky She-Demon]

That makes sense, him being the older brother. But I still think it wasn't a large age difference either way.

Elizabeth's pocket watch is from her dad. Knowing some more about her parents would've been nice. Elizabeth is my favorite character.

[Falcon Horus]

Is Lizzie's pocket watch from her dad or grandpa?

I'm fairly certain it's her father's watch.

[Sparky She-Demon]

That's what I've heard. The pocketwatch was her dad's.

[Southern Red]

Do we ever find out who was the older of the two Sheppard boys?

I think Mallozzi said it was John.

Ah so much ground to covver. SR I think if they played up a triangle we'd have gotten The O.C. Atlantis. It would have to be subtle, just one element of a Teyla and Lizzie conflict. But I SK is right, TPTW couldn't pull it off.

I do like the link you gave about the Byronic hero. (I don't think Tony Stark is a Byronic hero, more the likeable rake or rogue but that's another discussion.) I think many sources take the brooding thing a bit far. The hero can appear that way or got that far with respect to his introverted personality and feelings. To me Byron's heroes in his own wroks don't get to the point of brooding, but I admit it's only my opinion. Byron's heroes do express their feelings through music and other arts, but they even do that privately. I could see Shep strumming his acoustic reflecting on his own troubles. Many archtypes do overlap, so he does fit many.

In re Shep's family life, I think he related more with his mom than his dad. I see his mom as more of a free spirit and somebody who kept his dad grounded in the family life. The impression I got from Shep is that his dad is a work obsessed guy and so is his brother. Not sure which Sheppard brother is older. I want to lean toward John. Being older he got force fed the "family legacy" line and then when his mom died he couldn't take and became the prodigal son.

Is Lizzie's pocket watch from her dad or grandpa? Knowing more about Lizzie's folks would give a nice view of her own belief system. Perhaps explain some of her anti-proliferation ideas, her civil unrest record, (I think it was mentioned during the Jessica Stein episodes) and style of diplomacy.

Man, all that work I need some chow

If I remember back to the days when they made me take courses in poetry, I think the zeitgeist of the time got Byron a little mixed up with his works. He was a rock star in his day and all the ladies loved him, so every word that came from his pen was sighed over and taken way too seriously. I have long forgotten most of what I learned about him, but I do remember the Lady Caroline Lamb story. It was she who famously called him "mad, bad and dangerous to know" which, of course, made him go after her even more. She was a little wicked herself, so they were a good match. I think he cultivated his persona as a ladies man and a bit of a rogue. Some things never change, I guess. So, in this respect, the Byronic hero doesn't fit Byron, but fits some of his works.

It doesn't pay to over simplify John. I think there are many layers to him, and we only got a peek at a few. That's why we are having such good discussions about him all this much later.

I think they dropped the ball on the Elizabeth background by not having her more anti-war. They just gave it lip service at times, and then had her go along with the military on a lot of issues. More conflict would have been nice. It made her seem wishy washy.

[Eri13]

I actually got the impression that he was the younger of the two, but not by much.

Yeah... I'd give a lot to know what the story there was.

I got the impression John was older, but I don't remember what it was based on...

In Outcast Dave says that 'he was the one who stayed' and looked after their father, which seems like something a younger son would say to an older brother (in the vein of that old feudal system of the older brother being primary heir and thereby the one responsible for carrying on family tradition).

However IMO Dave looked older.

That's what I've heard. The pocketwatch was her dad's.

That was verified in canon when Elizabeth's Mom brings her the watch in The Real World and says 'Your Father's Watch--he always meant to give it to you.'

[pkprd869]

SR Shep's complicated man (with problems no one understands but his wooooman, Shep, John Shep...) I do remember the Caroline Lamb quote, what guy wouldn't want to be all those things?

Eri, FH, and She-demon thanks for the canon. Lizzie's dad maybe even a veteran himself. Mistreated by the government or maybe KIA in some questionable circumstance? Could explain her anti-war beliefs.

[Brie]

There have been so many great conversations going on here in the last couple of days.



Both John’s and Elizabeth’s past personal lives left a lot to be desired and one will always wish that we could get more on it, heck, sometimes it felt as if we knew more about Ronon and how he came to be the man he is just from the three Ronon centric episodes then we did anyone else and I wish they could have made at least a few episodes that gave us more about their background, though nothing like SGU and not something that would have taken over the actual plotline. It’s a bit ironic that the two season three episodes (Elizabeth in ‘The Real World’ and John in ‘Phantoms’) that gave us a bit of backstories were both brought forward by alien technology which means that while they did ring through it was still created to unnerve them and we can’t really know how much of it is true.

We do know some things about both Elizabeth and John and some really interesting things at that that while you wish that they could have developed more on the show we at least say that they are canon.

Eri, FH, and She-demon thanks for the canon. Lizzie's dad maybe even a veteran himself. Mistreated by the government or maybe KIA in some questionable circumstance? Could explain her anti-war beliefs.

He could have defiantly been that, I’m thinking that he at least had some job that require him to work a lot, and if not that then maybe something either political or maybe he was a university professor, I don’t know why I think these things I guess it was partly to do with what we got from Elizabeth’s mother and how she was presented and partly to do with Elizabeth herself and that she don’t just work with politics as a diplomat but also teach university classes and it feels a bit like she must have gotten her views and passions from somewhere and I think her father could have been that person.

[Scary Kitty]

I think Mallozzi said it was John.

Correct.

In Outcast Dave says that 'he was the one who stayed' and looked after their father, which seems like something a younger son would say to an older brother (in the vein of that old feudal system of the older brother being primary heir and thereby the one responsible for carrying on family tradition).

However IMO Dave looked older.

Yup, that was how I interpreted Dave's attitude as well. A younger brother resentful of having to step in and take over the responsibilities that should've been John's. I guess all that responsibility prematurely aged Dave.

That was verified in canon when Elizabeth's Mom brings her the watch in The Real World and says 'Your Father's Watch--he always meant to give it to you.'

Yup.

He could have defiantly been that, I’m thinking that he at least had some job that require him to work a lot, and if not that then maybe something either political or maybe he was a university professor, I don’t know why I think these things I guess it was partly to do with what we got from Elizabeth’s mother and how she was presented and partly to do with Elizabeth herself and that she don’t just work with politics as a diplomat but also teach university classes and it feels a bit like she must have gotten her views and passions from somewhere and I think her father could have been that person.

I keep going back to Elizabeth's comment to Daniel in New Order Part 1 about how "When I was a kid, my dad used to have these weekly poker games. All I remember is smoke making my eyes water. I'm starting to wish I'd paid more attention." and wondering about him. It always felt to me like perhaps she was closer to her father than her mother.

[Brie]

I keep going back to Elizabeth's comment to Daniel in New Order Part 1 about how "When I was a kid, my dad used to have these weekly poker games. All I remember is smoke making my eyes water. I'm starting to wish I'd paid more attention." and wondering about him. It always felt to me like perhaps she was closer to her father than her mother.

I do remember that comment and I did like getting that small tidbit about the relationship she had with him, even if it doesn't say a whole lot it does give us a bit of a tone at least.

Mmm, it’s defiantly possible and that’s why the pocket watch is so important to her, and why the nanites within her were able to use it as a way to pull her deeper into their gasp, if that makes sense.


The funny about it that it’s also a way to point out that since she basically lives by her desk and so everything on it must be very important to her like the picture of her dog and the pot she got from John, and of course, on occasions John himself.

[Scary Kitty]

I do remember that comment and I did like getting that small tidbit about the relationship she had with him, even if it doesn't say a whole lot it does give us a bit of a tone at least.

Mmm, it’s defiantly possible and that’s why the pocket watch is so important to her, and why the nanites within her were able to use it as a way to pull her deeper into their gasp, if that makes sense.


The funny about it that it’s also a way to point out that since she basically lives by her desk and so everything on it must be very important to her like the picture of her dog and the pot she got from John, and of course, on occasions John himself.

In. The. Gutter!

[mandogater]

It doesn't pay to over simplify John. I think there are many layers to him, and we only got a peek at a few. That's why we are having such good discussions about him all this much later.

I think they dropped the ball on the Elizabeth background by not having her more anti-war. They just gave it lip service at times, and then had her go along with the military on a lot of issues. More conflict would have been nice. It made her seem wishy washy.

I always thought John was a very complicated character that got the short end of the stick from TPTW.

More conflict would have been nice to see but I always saw her going along was a realization on her part that words alone can not stop pure evil.

[Sequoia Hope]

While I agree his tone and demeanor changed in the last two seasons, I don't think it was the burden of command per se. If anything, he had less responsibility when Carter and Woolsey were in charge. Whilst with all of them they generally stuck to their own responsibilities, when there was anything big, John and Elizabeth tended to discuss it and come to an agreement (not always though). With Carter and Woolsey, there was less discussion and more of a single-leader approach. I'm not saying one is better than the other in terms of running the city, just that there were two different styles.

Add to that from mid s3 to mid s4 the three (high ranking) people least likely to be in the line of fire were killed (Carson, Elizabeth, Kate) in arguably preventable deaths, which he would have felt some responsibility for, along with some remorse. All of that would have affected him somewhat. And sure, they got Teyla back after Michael took her, but it looked pretty grim at one point and again, she was someone he was responsible for

Very good points. I suppose that the number of responsibilities John held in Seasons 4 and 5 was no more overwhelming than those he held in the earlier seasons. However, to me, it always seemed as if he was more stressed out in Seasons 4 and 5. Maybe it was simply due to the radical course the galaxy was taking with the Replicators on the rise and Todd becoming a "frienemy" Wraith. It wasn't just John who became darker later on; the show itself became darker.

I have to agree with how Carson, Elizabeth, and Kate were the people that were the least likely to get killed. They were civilians whose roles were back in the city, and they shouldn't have been in any apparent danger; ironically, both Carson and Kate met their demise in Atlantis itself. On the other hand, John and his team often traveled off-world to perform their duties, and they always somehow managed to survive every near-disaster they got themselves into. While I would never have wanted any of them to be taken off the show, it was as if they were invulnerable and indispensable. The fact that civilians were killed in the line of duty and not soldiers or warriors did demonstrate that the roles of the civilian main characters were not as vital to the show as the roles of the members on the main off-world team.

Very good points. We get the best look at why John is like he is in S4-5 in Remnants when Kolya brings out that John feels guilty about all the losses and blames himself. It's a real shame that the scene they had written that directly mentioned Elizabeth never got filmed. Especially in S5 at times, it was like he had just given up and stopped trying to lighten the mood.

There was a scene in "Remnants" that directly mentioned Elizabeth that got cut out?! I never knew that... that's truly a shame... I noticed that in Season 4, Elizabeth was actually referred to in a number of episodes. For example, in "Doppelganger," when the team was in now Colonel Carter's office, brainstorming ideas of how to deal with the alien entity, John offered, "Maybe there's a way to... I don't know, reason with it." Colonel Carter subsequently said, "Being in Doctor Weir's old office made you think of that, didn't it?" This was one of my favorite scenes that referred to Elizabeth after she left the show; it truly exhibited how she had impacted the way her city made decisions, as she believed in a more moral solution rather than aggression and violence every time.

However, that was in early Season 4; Elizabeth was referred to less and less in Season 5, especially after "Ghost in the Machine," The team just had to accept that she was truly gone, and mentioning her all the time would have only brought back all the pain. I do wonder what John's reaction would have been, though, if in "Remnants," Kolya had started taunting John about how Elizabeth was gone, and she's never going to come back. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine John shooting Kolya dead (again).

[Sequoia Hope]

Excellent observations! Broken and expecting-- heck, resigned to the idea-- that things are going to go sideways. It's like he's just going through the motions of what's expected of him. In some ways, the search for Teyla at the end of S4 is like the last gasp of the old Sheppard, trying to hold onto whatever pieces of this new life he's built over the last few years, trying to keep them from slipping away. And yet though Teyla is saved, he still loses her to an extent as she moves into motherhood and life with Kanaan. Ronon gets together with Amelia Banks, Rodney and Keller hook up... it's like the whole world is passing John by.

I've always felt sorry for John how he didn't seem to have anybody that he could be considered very close with. We see how in "Enemy At the Gate," he is the last one to join the team on the balcony in the ending. In "Vegas," we also see the kind of man he would be if he wasn't the military commander of Atlantis: solitary and broken, having no purpose in the world.

I keep going back to Elizabeth's comment to Daniel in New Order Part 1 about how "When I was a kid, my dad used to have these weekly poker games. All I remember is smoke making my eyes water. I'm starting to wish I'd paid more attention." and wondering about him. It always felt to me like perhaps she was closer to her father than her mother.

Hmmm... I've never watched SG-1 - it's not as appealing to me as Atlantis is. But that is an interesting quote. From this and the scenes of Elizabeth with her mother in "The Real World," I think one can surmise that she is actually pretty close with both of her parents, and I do appreciate this. We don't recognize her only as a hard-edged diplomat, but also as a kind woman with a lot of heart. She wears a professional facade for work, but she reveals a warm and compassionate side for her family and friends.

Kate, Elizabeth, and Carson are all people that, if someone said to me "lose someone from the show that won't alter things drastically" I would pick. That said, they're completely the wrong choice, because the nature of their characters, and their interactions with the remaining ones, have both a direct and indirect influence on the show - more than one that surrounds their death. Who do the others have character moments with? It was rarely other members of the team (excluding the last season). Who are they relaxed with? Who are they 'human' with?

All very true. While each of the main cast members were important, it was civilians like Elizabeth, Carson, and Kate who brought humanity and morality to the show. Their characters were what balanced out the belligerence of John's team and assuaged the sense of darkness that overshadowed Atlantis and the rest of the galaxy. They had great chemistry with the team and brought out so many character moments. Even if it didn't seem like it, they actually played a very major role in the show, and that's why a sense of humanity and morality in the show was lost when they were written out.