Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

Me? *looks at self* A dirty girl? You sure about that?

[Scary Kitty]

Now why do I have a feeling that there wouldn't be much talking on his part anyway... I can see a big staring contest happening there.

Well, if you must know - she's always more frustrated after a session with John. I'm telling you, even I - her trusty Lemming - don't want to be anywhere near when she comes back from those. Instead I pretend to not be nibbling on some of McKay's cables.

Better make sure he hasn't booby-trapped those cables with some extra voltage!

Some hand-to-hand combat between John/Thalan and Elizabeth/ Phebus would have melted the cameras!!

RAWR.

[gateraid]

Very good points. We get the best look at why John is like he is in S4-5 in Remnants when Kolya brings out that John feels guilty about all the losses and blames himself. It's a real shame that the scene they had written that directly mentioned Elizabeth never got filmed. Especially in S5 at times, it was like he had just given up and stopped trying to lighten the mood.



This, yes this! John had suffered loss after loss after loss, and when it came to losing yet another team member, like he said to Keller in S&R, John just couldn't accept it. I think it goes back to his list of "family" in Sateda...Elizabeth, Carson, and now Teyla, which came to half of his list of those close to him. Throw Kate into the mix too because she was an important part of the expedition, and even though we never saw it, you just know John must have been forced to talk to her at some point after at least one of his suicide missions.

I think we must also consider the vast number of people under his command that John also lost. You could see it on his face after every incident, like in Phantoms, when members of the military were killed. As commanding officer, he would have had to write letters to all those loved ones, and I'm willing to bet every single time brought Elizabeth's "death" back home to him. Oh, and let's not forget Ford, whose death John never did accept.

Kate, Elizabeth, and Carson are all people that, if someone said to me "lose someone from the show that won't alter things drastically" I would pick. That said, they're completely the wrong choice, because the nature of their characters, and their interactions with the remaining ones, have both a direct and indirect influence on the show - more than one that surrounds their death. Who do the others have character moments with? It was rarely other members of the team (excluding the last season). Who are they relaxed with? Who are they 'human' with?

Ford I can accept because the clearly didn't know what to do with him. It doesn't sit well, but I can let it slide. Mind you, compare s5 Ronon with s1 Ford - put a wig on Rainbow and he could have been Ronon.

Hello everyone! I’m still so happy about last night’s football game (I guess it’s soccer for you Americans) between Sweden – Germany, it was such a great second half.

Thanks for all of the amazing Sparky gifs and images that has been posted here the last couple of days, they are all so amazing (just like Sparky themselves are).



I felt the same way though it was also a similar thing with ‘Conversion’ that was supposed to be this big Shelya episode when they obviously wrote it but turned out really odd in that ship department since he wound up spending basically the whole episode with Elizabeth.

And yet I wouldn't describe conversion as shippy, at least not overtly. Some of it can be handwaved as leaderly/responsibility. But if they wanted it to be a sheyla ep, they could have replaced one of the bedroom scenes with John/Teyla.

The Long Goodbye is *not* a Sheyla episode. Who was that kiss between (at least their bodies were involved)? John and Elizabeth. And when John/Thalen says, "He cares about you. More than you know." I don't think he was talking to Teyla, he was talking to Elizabeth.

It was John and Elizabeth's avatars, nothing more. It may as well have been Caldwell and Rodney for all we can read into the kiss itself, as neither John nor Elizabeth was in control at that point. If so, do you really think she would have shot Ronon?

As for the "he cares about you more than you know" line, he was definitely, unequivocally talking about Teyla. It's open to interpretation what that means (was Thalen lying, was he padding for time, did he mean John was in love with her, or did he mean he thought of her as a sibling - whatever), but he was talking to, and talking about, Teyla

Besides that scene though I loved TLG, I just wished that they would have had a bit more of an actual showdown between John/Thalan and Elizabeth/ Phebus, just a scene where they came face to face, maybe even fight scene (now that would have been hot, just saying).

Playing Devil's Advocate, I guess the reason they didn't have them fight directly is because a lot of Torri's stuff was shot second unit (so, seperate to the rest of filming and at a time that was convenient). And perhaps it was because the logical result would have been that one of them should have died.

But yes, I would have liked to have seen it, and one would think that given the premise of the episode that that would have been the likely climax (instead of the one-shot wonder that it ended up as)

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!



C'mon, someone had to say it.



One of the few times they did science pretty well.



*snorts*

And here comes the angst!



After five years of dealing with... everything he's dealt with, I wonder sometimes if John was getting burned out. Atlantis certainly isn't a typical duty station, but I've got to think he's been out there longer than the typical deployment. And by his own admission, he hasn't been taking his leave time. He just keeps pushing himself, driven by his guilt over past "failures," without taking any real break. Gotta wonder what Kate would think about that.

Exactly, and I think in S5, more than the other seasons, it seemed like he just expected things to go sideways. And when they did, like in Outsiders, he never hesitated to do something that fell more into a gray area than a lot of his actions in the earlier seasons. He was more the John from Miller's Crossing than the John in Brotherhood, who let Kolya go. I'm betting he wouldn't make that choice again if he had a chance.

When I play tennis matches, there's a point at which we say an opponent 'breaks' if she's losing pretty badly. You can see it in her face and body language, that she's just given up and is going through the motions. But whatever fire she had when she started has died away. It's at that point the match is in the bag unless the other player suddenly starts playing terribly.

I think around S4, perhaps around TLM, John just 'broke'. A lot of his levity came from team and from some of the banter with Elizabeth--if you think about the cap scenes we get at the end of some of the shows with him joking with her there are a lot more than you think about at first glance. When she left, that left with her, and with Sam and Woolsey it was a working relationship but it wasn't as friendly. And as far as the team, Rodney getting Keller took away a little of that and Teyla with Torren did too.

Everybody's lives, with the exception, perhaps, of Ronon's, changed. John's didn't. His 'life' was the same--leader of military operations on Atlantis--but the dynamic was different. And I think in a way that broke him--not as a scarred soul, per se, but in that it ended his routine, and there wasn't any way to get it back (and going back to GITM, makes that line asking Woolsey 'what if one of them wanted to stay' have so much more meaning). It made him sort of go through the motions of living more than actually live. That can wear on a soul and perhaps causes some of that 'darkness' that you see come out.

I can't add anything to this, you've all said it so well

Gateraid I have you beat with the awkward around women thing. I did get turned down today but eh, whatever.

dude, if only I could get turned down by a woman. the ones I like dont like me, and the ones I dont like scare the bejesus out of me

Shep is very much the Byronic hero type. I think losing Lizzie, Carson, and Kate very much affected him. Along with his friends lives changing I understand him starting to feel left behind. Plus he didn't have much of a chance to get close to Carter or Woolsey. Remember Shep and Lizzie were both underdogs when Atlantis first started. They could relate with each other and had time to develop a close relationship. "Us against the world" is easier to handle than "Me against the world." If TPTW played things right they could have shifted the focus more to character driven arcs in response to fan complaints, but instead they pulled the plug.

She-Demon at the Chicago con Torri did comment that TLG was her favorite episode because she got to shoot guns and beat people up.

Byronic hero? And you say you can't pick up women - use your powers for....evil, my child

And then at DragonCon she added kissing Joe to her list of faves.

And how could any woman turn down a guy who understands the Byronic hero archetype?

It's not the power of knowledge that's the problem, it appears to be how it's applied in real life

[Southern Red]

Kate, Elizabeth, and Carson are all people that, if someone said to me "lose someone from the show that won't alter things drastically" I would pick. That said, they're completely the wrong choice, because the nature of their characters, and their interactions with the remaining ones, have both a direct and indirect influence on the show - more than one that surrounds their death. Who do the others have character moments with? It was rarely other members of the team (excluding the last season). Who are they relaxed with? Who are they 'human' with?

I hadn't thought about it this way, but you are right. The character scenes did seem to almost always be between those 3 characters and someone else. Throw in a few John/Elizabeth and John/Rodney scenes and you've pretty much got all the character moments.

Ford I can accept because the clearly didn't know what to do with him. It doesn't sit well, but I can let it slide. Mind you, compare s5 Ronon with s1 Ford - put a wig on Rainbow and he could have been Ronon.

Also right. Ronon really did get the short end of the stick in S5. I always liked Ford and particularly liked his relationship with John. Ronon was more of an equal with John being less of a mentor than with Ford. That little change took away any chance for John to show his mature commander side and hurt his character a bit. But I loved his buddy moments with Ronon.

And yet I wouldn't describe conversion as shippy, at least not overtly. Some of it can be handwaved as leaderly/responsibility. But if they wanted it to be a sheyla ep, they could have replaced one of the bedroom scenes with John/Teyla.

It was John and Elizabeth's avatars, nothing more. It may as well have been Caldwell and Rodney for all we can read into the kiss itself, as neither John nor Elizabeth was in control at that point. If so, do you really think she would have shot Ronon?

As for the "he cares about you more than you know" line, he was definitely, unequivocally talking about Teyla. It's open to interpretation what that means (was Thalen lying, was he padding for time, did he mean John was in love with her, or did he mean he thought of her as a sibling - whatever), but he was talking to, and talking about, Teyla

Those 2 eps were excellent examples of how clueless these writers were when it came to ship. They assumed we would get their intentions without it being plainly shown on screen instead of vaguely hinted at. Leaving ship to the interpretation of the viewer opens the doors for all sorts of trouble.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

Kate, Elizabeth, and Carson are all people that, if someone said to me "lose someone from the show that won't alter things drastically" I would pick. That said, they're completely the wrong choice, because the nature of their characters, and their interactions with the remaining ones, have both a direct and indirect influence on the show - more than one that surrounds their death. Who do the others have character moments with? It was rarely other members of the team (excluding the last season). Who are they relaxed with? Who are they 'human' with?

Ford I can accept because the clearly didn't know what to do with him. It doesn't sit well, but I can let it slide. Mind you, compare s5 Ronon with s1 Ford - put a wig on Rainbow and he could have been Ronon.

Right on. It's that very nature that makes each of them a "heart", if you will. A center around which the others rotate. That's especially true of Elizabeth, as she's the leader and thus a natural nexus to draw everyone together, but Carson and Kate, as healers, have much the same qualities.

Playing Devil's Advocate, I guess the reason they didn't have them fight directly is because a lot of Torri's stuff was shot second unit (so, seperate to the rest of filming and at a time that was convenient). And perhaps it was because the logical result would have been that one of them should have died.

But yes, I would have liked to have seen it, and one would think that given the premise of the episode that that would have been the likely climax (instead of the one-shot wonder that it ended up as)

No worries, that's what CPR and a defibrillator are for.

Those 2 eps were excellent examples of how clueless these writers were when it came to ship. They assumed we would get their intentions without it being plainly shown on screen instead of vaguely hinted at. Leaving ship to the interpretation of the viewer opens the doors for all sorts of trouble.

TPTW brought it on themselves.

[Sparky She-Demon]

What is "TPTW"? I know that "TPTB" is The Powers that be.

[Southern Red]

What is "TPTW"? I know that "TPTB" is The Powers that be.

The Powers That Were

[Sparky She-Demon]

Thank you. Makes sense. Hey, I just got promoted!

[Falcon Horus]

Better make sure he hasn't booby-trapped those cables with some extra voltage!

That would mean dealing with Kate - he knows better.

[Sparky She-Demon]

What do you think Rodney would do if the She-Demon was caught nibbling on the electrical cords?

[Falcon Horus]

What do you think Rodney would do if the She-Demon was caught nibbling on the electrical cords?

He'd be too occupied chasing to notice me.

[Sparky She-Demon]

I see the She-Demon being some sort of raccoon/dog combination that is very curious and likes to play games with Rodney.

[Falcon Horus]

I'm just Heightmeyer's Lemming... and no one else's... okay, sometimes Teyla's too.

[Sparky She-Demon]

I don't know to whom the She-Demon belongs to. Elizabeth mostly I think, occasionally Cadman when she's around.

[Falcon Horus]

My owner really is a done deal... have never belonged to anyone else but Kate. I'm hers and she's mind. And that's the way of it...

Also, next to nibbling I also hide in closets... ...particularly where people think they are undisturbed. Elizabeth & John, your secret is (not) safe with me.