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**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by mad_gater View Post

show me where barbarism is actually an official part of the tenets of Christian faith....yes there have been rogue Christians who've done bad and barbaric things (Westboro being a case in point) but that doesn't change the fact that barbarism is found nowhere in Christian teaching....however barbarism factors rather heavily into the official tenets of Islam....all you have to do is take a look at its fruit, namely the barbaric system of laws known as Shariah Law....and as they say about fruit....it doesn't fall far from the tree

When was the last time you read Deuteronomy?
Before you say "LOL GF, that's O.T", let me direct you to Matthew 5 where Jesus himself says he did not come to "re-write" the O.T.

Originally posted by Jesus

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

Now, can we go back to politics?

**SGalisa** · 20 July 2014, 06:01 PM

Spent hours and hours digging up several news articles, so much that I don't want to come back and read any new comments.

In the meantime, this may take a few postings...
((attempting to bring some rantings/comments into perspective with corresponding news articles))

Apologies if it jumps around too much. Chalk this up to (news) information overload..!

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

Now, can we go back to politics?

No..

Unless the following rant(s) are political in nature. IDK.. I've gotten totally confused after reading today's stuff.

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

So tell me the "rules" then. While you are at it, tell me why some rules apply to some, and not to others.

Yes, please DO explain Hamas' rules and the Islamic Caliphate, especially in regards to Israeli Jews and Christians.

Now, back to the original issues being questioned---

Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post

OH and why is it OK for Israel to bomb everything and if anyone dares fight back, well they are bad and evil and shall be smited?

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

Before I reply, my sister has a friend who's currently residing in Jerusalem and has first-hand experience as a non-Israeli how the Israeli deal with Gaza. How it is portrayed in the news. And she says there's a day and night difference what's on the Israeli news sites, and the foreign news sites.
...

And who's telling you that they don't care? Why on Earth or anywhere else wouldn't they care
...

If the Israelis should care, perhaps there would be no need for bomb shelters on either side. But perhaps that's too much to ask.

(not picking on FH's post, just using it for reinforcement of some ancient news articles)

(also, bold font added in some paragraphs for emphasis of issue stated)

a little history lesson...
Israel didn't always HAVE those bomb shelters. When Israel became a reborn nation entity in 1948, it lived in a land without walls, without border fences between its Jewish people and the local Palestinians or whoever else was living in the land.

When I was a teenager or younger, there was a time when very frequently in the international world news, some Jewish pizza place, restaurant, or disco joint, was being road bombed by passing hordes of whoever (Hamas/Hezbollah) tossing homemade bombs into Israeli vehicles, food and other gathering places. Maybe this was during or between 1967 or 1973, I don't remember. But I do remember seeing news footage of the massacres against the Jewish Israelis occurring, and dozens of injured and bleeding (Israeli) people being brought out to ambulances on a regular basis.

So, Israel wisened up and realized their new life back in their *homeland* was never going to be totally safe and secure without taking new security measures.

In other words, they've lived without the shelters before and that way of life didn't stop the bombs then, so WHAT is going to change that now? A peace treaty? "Tried that -- been there, done that.. and it hasn't worked yet" so what else is new?
What else can be done, apart from complete and total annihilation and of which side (or what group of people will end up totally wiped out)..?

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

Maybe they want to build a country, a society instead of having to build bomb shelters because their neighbors are a warmongering nation with a thirst for more land, and superiority complex to boot.

*sigh* New societies seeking to grow and be productive with the rest of the world, do not deliberately or intentionally destroy or take good working, existing agricultural products and turn them into weapons or use any money gained if selling such materials in exchange for war supplies!

When Israel gave up the Gaza region, they also gave the Palestinians roughly around 3,000 greenhouses to help start the (Palestinian) culture. Instead, those greenhouses were vandalized and destroyed, and as a result, the land was turned into a wasteland (desert again) b/c precious food crops had to be imported from outside the country/area. The following articles reveal what the new Gazan residents (or militants) did to the Israeli agricultural structures.

"Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses "

By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent
(Feb. 10, 2006, 12:00 AM)

"Damage is irreparable; international donors had purchased the greenhouses from evacuated settlers for benefit of the Palestinians."
...
According to Palestinian and international sources involved in running the greenhouses, the armed robbers belonged to two militias, the Assistance Committees and the Popular Army, affiliated with former Palestinian ruling party Fatah. These militias had been hired by the Palestinian Authority to guard both the ruins of the former settlements and the greenhouses, which were all under cultivation. But instead of guarding the greenhouses, the guards decided to rob them.

According to the sources, the robbers used bulldozers to break the iron supports of the buildings' frames, then swarmed over the equipment inside, which included piping and irrigation computers. The damage to the greenhouses, which are meant to provide employment for hundreds of Palestinians and increase the PA's exports, is irreparable, the sources added.
...

So, where did all that precious irrigation piping and other metals holding the buildings up go to? It's easy to say the materials got sold for future financing, but the agricultural structures were already IN PLACE and were helping to feed the people--makes no sense to destroy the acreage used for making food products in the very beginning.

"Gaza Arabs Get Second Chance on Greenhouses"

By Maayana Miskin
(First Publish: 8/9/2010, 10:48 AM, Last Update: 8/9/2010, 1:15 PM)

"US gives Gaza Arabs a second chance, providing them with new greenhouses after they demolished the Gush Katif originals."

The U.S. will be giving Gaza Arabs a second chance, providing them with new greenhouses to replace the Gush Katif originals they demolished.

In 2005, as Israel withdrew its troops from Gaza and forcibly removed the Jewish residents of the area, a group of Jewish American donors came together to ensure that the famed Israeli greenhouses that produced $200 million of produce per year would not go to waste...
...
But within hours of the withdrawal, many of the buildings had been damaged beyond repair. Terrorists and looters stripped them of their piping and electronic equipment and tore down their walls. Some greenhouses remained, several of which were destroyed in a second round of looting in 2006.

Now Gaza Arabs are going to get a second chance to try to recreate the thriving greenhouses of Gush Katif.
...
Anita Tucker, a former resident of Gush Katif... explained that while Gaza Arabs were at one point beginning to succeed in agriculture with help from their Jewish neighbors, the rise of the PA and later of Hamas created a situation in which rival terrorist groups battle for control at the expense of civilians, and ultimately destroy efforts to build local industry.

"If the US and Israel want Gaza to succeed, the solution is to allow Jews to return to the area, she told Israel National News. 'People have to learn to live next door to each other. That's what peace is all about...'"

next . . .

**SGalisa** · 20 July 2014, 06:41 PM

Anywho... (again)

Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post

OH and why is it OK for Israel to bomb everything and if anyone dares fight back, well they are bad and evil and shall be smited?

Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post

290 Palestinians have been killed that we know of so far. Three quarters of which are reported to have been civilians. That is an unacceptable ratio.

Meanwhile well over a thousand homes have been displaced and 18'000 people have been displaced by Israeli action. That is not measured, responsible action.

Tracing this back to the beginning--what started this most recent Palestinian/Israeli event?

Israel's political and military systems are being bashed for having the nerve to protect its own people. This whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict situation began on the Hamas side because three Jewish teenagers were kidnapped -- who provoked that? Hamas? Eventually, those same 3 teenagers were found dead, and the practically next day (or thereabouts), Hamas indirectly took a possible veiled credit for doing the nasty deed..as they claimed *it* was a "failed activity".
*say whaaaaaaaaat?*

"Veiled Admission? Hamas Says Kidnapping Was 'Failed Activity'"

By Ari Yashar
(First Publish: 7/1/2014, 9:00 PM)

A Hamas spokesperson on Tuesday released a statement just after the funeral of Eyal Yifrah (19), Naftali Frenkel (16) and Gilad Sha'ar (16), who were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas terrorists.

Mushir al-Masri, the spokesperson, labeled the abduction as "an activity that failed," reports Channel 10.

While the statement sounds like an admission, al-Masri did not take responsibility for the murder.

All the same, he did emphasize that in the future, Hamas will take further steps against Israel to "balance" the crackdown the IDF has been conducting on Hamas's terror infrastructure in Judea and Samaria.
...

All this rocket launching (by Hamas) and defensive Iron-Dome, etc. reaction by the IDF, because of a "failed activity" on the Hamas or Palestinian side (mission implied)...?

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

Again
Declare WAR.
Just stop the PC bull and declare outright war on Palestine and Hamas...

Israel doesn't need to declare war. The moment rockets and missiles start getting hurled down at Israeli citizens (and visiting tourists), the other side launching the weapons at Israel has already started a war against them. Since when do local gangs or even neighbors launch rockets at their opposing side/neighbor just to taunt their enemies? Apparently, the definition of a knifing or gun-fight vs. rockets propelled to flat out destroy have the same meaning--that this is just a dispute and NOT an outright war?

Spoiler:

The article didn't seem to answer the question on why Palestinian civilians were placed in harm's way--on the front line. However, there was a recent article stating very specifically that the Palestinians were told to stay put in their homes and NOT evacuate. So, were they advised if they died they'd all become a martyr for their religious belief(s)? Or, as one recent article (somewhere else in the news) stated, some of the Hamas military deliberately dresses up as civilians to blend in with the *innocent* civilians. It was their (Palestinian military) families/friends whose homes were being targeted by the IDF, but the MSM news twisted it into *everyone* being an innocent civilian, instead.

reinforcement of the above--(bold emphasis added to highlight)

article contains video (seems to just keep looping, so link below is broken)
(Please remove B L A N K spaces in beginning of web address to access article/link for complete details)

"Benjamin Netanyahu: Hamas Committing 'Double War Crime'; Rails Against 'Mad Islamists'"
http : // abcnews. go. com/blogs/politics/2014/07/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-committing-double-war-crime-rails-against-mad-islamists/

by Benjamin Bell
(Jul 20, 2014 12:26pm)

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said today he is sorry for civilian casualties in Gaza, but he lashed out at Hamas, asserting the Islamic group that controls the Gaza Strip is purposefully putting civilians in harm's way while also attacking innocent Israelis with rockets.

"We regret any civilian deaths but those lay entirely at Hamas' door," Netanyahu told ABC News chief anchor George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" Sunday. "Hamas is deliberately targeting our civilians; they've fired 2,000 rockets, 2,000 rockets at Israel cities. Seventy-five percent of our population has to be in bomb shelter alert of 60 seconds or 90 seconds. They're digging these terror tunnels from Gaza, from homes in Gaza to penetrate and infiltrate Israeli territory. They emerged and killed Israelis and run back or try and run back into their territory, so we've had to take actions.

"What Hamas is doing very cynically is embedding its rocketeers, its rocket cashes, its tunnels — these terror tunnels in homes, in hospitals, in schools, and when we take action, as targeted as we can, they then use their civilians as human shields," Netanyahu added. "So Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians. That's a double war crime, and therefore all civilian deaths as regrettable as they are fall on their shoulders."
...

as mad_gater already stated--

Originally posted by mad_gater View Post

maybe someone should tell Hamas to stop using human shields then

**SGalisa** · 20 July 2014, 06:59 PM

Maybe one more . . .

Originally posted by Womble View Post

The Palestinians do not have bomb shelters because they don't give a damn how many of their people die. They've chosen to invest their resources into rockets and tunnels with which to attack me and my people...

and more about the Palestinian side--

Originally posted by Womble View Post

...They dig mile-long tunnels buried so deep underground that bombs can barely reach them. But they can't afford public bomb shelters? ...

Israel has every right to defend itself, but is condemned for any practical way of doing so.

Find me another country that puts so much effort into minimizing civilian casualties among the population that cheers when that country's children get kidnapped and murdered. Find me an army that calls the mobile phones of a building's inhabitants and warns them to get out before they blow that building up. We fight in the most ridiculously lawyerly way ever practiced, under the most byzantine rules of engagement known to man- and it's still not enough for "the world" and it's ever-so-enlightened opinion.
...

When the various (USA) radio programs reported that Israel actually had the phone numbers and email addresses of the residents they warned to evacuate -- that sort of floors the listener. Does Hamas or any other country do this as a general (humanitarian), *safety* procedure? Did A-Q phone ahead to the WTC to WARN the *innocents* there and within several blocks of the same area to evacuate b/c the hijackers were going to crash the planes into the buildings? So, why should Israel give notice ahead of time so everyone can escape, and do so with their most precious belongings?

What is surprising is that some of the rocket launching equipment was still in the Palestinian homes and other *public* buildings when the IDF actually got there--while ferreting this stuff out. Was it bolted down or portable enough to carry away within a 5 to 20 minute warning notice?

...and the counter-argument (Palestinian version of the same situation)

Spoiler:

That's her POV, which is seemingly echoed by most of the (MSM, etc) world looking at Israel as the evil aggressor in this whole situation.

For one thing, tunnels aren't made overnight to escape the latest Iron Dome system! Those tunnels have probably been around for decades. It takes TIME to dig out sophisticated labyrinths, such as those tunnels!
So, who's the culprit? Here is speculation----Israel claims Hamas & company built those tunnels. Hamas might state the tunnels have always been there, or that the Israelis built them before handing over Gaza to the Palestinians.

"Gaza terror tunnel attack thwarted "

By Elior Levy
(Latest Update: 07.17.14, 09:00 / Israel News)

"IDF fires at 13 terrorists attempting to enter Israel through Gaza Strip tunnel early Thursday morning; hits identified; IDF orders citizens in area to remain in homes as searches continue."
...

The above article showed footage of armed Hamas soldiers climbing out of a tunnel near a Jewish Kibbutz to do what---kill and ambush anyone attempting to stop whatever deed they were about to do? threaten *innocent* populations by kidnapping more Israeli citizens, and then demand outrageous ransoms in return?

"Hamas Is Using Civilians as Human Shields but Its Latest Directive Is the Most Shocking"

By Sharona Schwartz
(Jul. 10, 2014 2:56pm)

The Hamas leadership in Gaza is ordering Palestinians to stay in their homes even if they are warned by the Israel Defense Forces to vacate before their neighborhood is bombed.

The Washington Free Beacon reported Thursday that Hamas' Interior Ministry issued a statement which "warned citizens about Israel sending messages telling them to leave their houses."

The IDF has been placing telephone calls to the houses it is about to bomb, because Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad leaders are directing rocket attacks on Israel from the middle of populated residential areas.
...

Exhibit D:

Linda Todd saw the Hamas tactic firsthand in 2009 when she was married to a Palestinian journalist and living in Gaza. While attending church in Gaza, she wrote, "I was surprised to find a Hamas headquarters located directly across the street from the church, again in an area of Gaza City where I was told you wouldn’t necessarily expect to find Hamas supporters. I soon learned that the church has sustained damage during bombing one night."

"When I worked in a school there, it was well known that Hamas occupied the high rise overlooking our school field. We could often see people staring down on us. The school kids would often stop and shout up at the people, telling them off, telling them to stop watching us," Todd wrote Wednesday on the blog Israelly Cool. "It was obvious to me that if that building ever became a target to bomb, the school would again sustain heavy damage. In fact, it did in the last large military action. Hamas is everywhere."

"There seems to be no separation at all between terrorist and civilian areas, which is disgusting because they know there are civilians who don’t support them and yet they pop up everywhere," she added.

To drive home the point on the human shield tactic, the IDF tweeted this animation comparing Israeli homes with bomb shelters in the basement with Gaza homes used by Hamas to hide weapons:

What a house looks like after Hamas takes control: rockets near people, terrorists mixed with families.
RETWEET. pic.twitter.com/Sar4TSuiCc

As mentioned--Many of those *innocent* folks caught in the IDF crossfire were advised by Hamas to stay put/don't leave (or evacuate)--question again is WHY? What purpose does that serve?

**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

Spent hours and hours digging up several news articles, so much that I don't want to come back and read any new comments.

In the meantime, this may take a few postings...
((attempting to bring some rantings/comments into perspective with corresponding news articles))

Apologies if it jumps around too much. Chalk this up to (news) information overload..!

Sure, there is a virtual wealth of information out there.

No..

Unless the following rant(s) are political in nature. IDK.. I've gotten totally confused after reading today's stuff.

I only ask to preserve the integrity of the thread. Our last 2 religious ones were shut down, and I don't really want that to happen again. I am not offended by any of this, I realise we are discussing topics that are held dear to people and they can incite some rather "heated" responses. I also realise that even when barbs are thrown sometimes, they are not *usually* directly at someone, but a viewpoint.

Yes, please DO explain Hamas' rules and the Islamic Caliphate, especially in regards to Israeli Jews and Christians.

Now, back to the original issues being questioned---

Again, this is disingenuous to what I was saying. It was OBVIOUS that I was talking about Israel and Jewish perspective. I asked what would not be considered Anti-Israeli, Anti Zionist, or Hate Speech.

To answer YOUR question however, Perhaps they are the same as what Womble Posited, that Israeli lives mean nothing to them in -EXACTLY- the same way that their lives mean nothing to the Israeli's?
Never-ending, Nationalistic disregard for the lives of others because they are "inferior" breeds nothing but war, pain and suffering. Is their disregard any worse than Israel's?

(not picking on FH's post, just using it for reinforcement of some ancient news articles)

(also, bold font added in some paragraphs for emphasis of issue stated)

a little history lesson...
Israel didn't always HAVE those bomb shelters. When Israel became a reborn nation entity in 1948, it lived in a land without walls, without border fences between its Jewish people and the local Palestinians or whoever else was living in the land.

When I was a teenager or younger, there was a time when very frequently in the international world news, some Jewish pizza place, restaurant, or disco joint, was being road bombed by passing hordes of whoever (Hamas/Hezbollah) tossing homemade bombs into Israeli vehicles, food and other gathering places. Maybe this was during or between 1967 or 1973, I don't remember. But I do remember seeing news footage of the massacres against the Jewish Israelis occurring, and dozens of injured and bleeding (Israeli) people being brought out to ambulances on a regular basis.

So, Israel wisened up and realized their new life back in their *homeland* was never going to be totally safe and secure without taking new security measures.

They -started- in a warzone, it did not "become one". Israel KNEW this from day ONE. Due to economic support from the US and others, German war reparations, sale of bonds and large financial backing by independently wealthy Jewish folk however, Israel quickly became the major economic player in the region and could afford to defend itself, even to the (very wise) point of providing pro active defence for it's citizens. No one (here) blames them for being smart about things and realizing what a bad position they were thrust into and taking measures to help themselves. To claim however that "no one helped them out" is a load of dung.

In other words, they've lived without the shelters before and that way of life didn't stop the bombs then, so WHAT is going to change that now? A peace treaty? "Tried that -- been there, done that.. and it hasn't worked yet" so what else is new?
What else can be done, apart from complete and total annihilation and of which side (or what group of people will end up totally wiped out)..?

Well, If Israel cares nothing for Palestinian people, and Palestinian people care nothing for Israeli people then it comes down to pretty simple Math.
Who has the capability to annihilate the other?

*sigh* New societies seeking to grow and be productive with the rest of the world, do not deliberately or intentionally destroy or take good working, existing agricultural products and turn them into weapons or use any money gained if selling such materials in exchange for war supplies!

That is shockingly naïve.

When Israel gave up the Gaza region, they also gave the Palestinians roughly around 3,000 greenhouses to help start the (Palestinian) culture. Instead, those greenhouses were vandalized and destroyed, and as a result, the land was turned into a wasteland (desert again) b/c precious food crops had to be imported from outside the country/area. The following articles reveal what the new Gazan residents (or militants) did to the Israeli agricultural structures.

So, where did all that precious irrigation piping and other metals holding the buildings up go to? It's easy to say the materials got sold for future financing, but the agricultural structures were already IN PLACE and were helping to feed the people--makes no sense to destroy the acreage used for making food products in the very beginning.

Your flaw here is assuming that people in a warzone think "logically". Perhaps they just wanted to "smash the idols" of the previous people without consideration of the ramifications of their actions?

**Coco Pops** · 20 July 2014, 07:28 PM

Do we have an accurate toll of the dead on both sides during this conflict?

**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

Maybe one more . . .

and more about the Palestinian side--

When the various (USA) radio programs reported that Israel actually had the phone numbers and email addresses of the residents they warned to evacuate -- that sort of floors the listener. Does Hamas or any other country do this as a general (humanitarian), *safety* procedure? Did A-Q phone ahead to the WTC to WARN the *innocents* there and within several blocks of the same area to evacuate b/c the hijackers were going to crash the planes into the buildings? So, why should Israel give notice ahead of time so everyone can escape, and do so with their most precious belongings?

What is surprising is that some of the rocket launching equipment was still in the Palestinian homes and other *public* buildings when the IDF actually got there--while ferreting this stuff out. Was it bolted down or portable enough to carry away within a 5 to 20 minute warning notice?

...and the counter-argument (Palestinian version of the same situation)

Spoiler:

That's her POV, which is seemingly echoed by most of the (MSM, etc) world looking at Israel as the evil aggressor in this whole situation.

For one thing, tunnels aren't made overnight to escape the latest Iron Dome system! Those tunnels have probably been around for decades. It takes TIME to dig out sophisticated labyrinths, such as those tunnels!
So, who's the culprit? Here is speculation----Israel claims Hamas & company built those tunnels. Hamas might state the tunnels have always been there, or that the Israelis built them before handing over Gaza to the Palestinians.

The above article showed footage of armed Hamas soldiers climbing out of a tunnel near a Jewish Kibbutz to do what---kill and ambush anyone attempting to stop whatever deed they were about to do? threaten *innocent* populations by kidnapping more Israeli citizens, and then demand outrageous ransoms in return?

As mentioned--Many of those *innocent* folks caught in the IDF crossfire were advised by Hamas to stay put/don't leave (or evacuate)--question again is WHY? What purpose does that serve?

...............and we are back to Soulreavers point. They are not ALLOWED to leave.
Want a nice, personal way to think of this?

Let's imagine for a moment I was a raging Satanist, and I set up in your house and was preparing a human sacrifice. If you try to leave, I WILL kill you, if you do not, you are COMPLICIT in the act.
This is the choice you feel is fair to apply to the Civilians, Die by choice, or burn in hell.

**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post

Do we have an accurate toll of the dead on both sides during this conflict?

Not really, around 13 Israeli people died in the last day, and around 130 Palestinians. at a rough guess that gives a total of around 37 Israeli's and 420 Palastinians dead in the last 96 hours. Mind you, that is both a rough guess and relying on reported numbers.

**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

Anywho... (again)

Tracing this back to the beginning--what started this most recent Palestinian/Israeli event?

Israel's political and military systems are being bashed for having the nerve to protect its own people.

Oh just stop right now.
Do you see anyone, frigging ANYONE here saying Israel has no right to employ the Iron Shield technology?
Do you see anyone saying Israel has no right to defend itself??
No??
Excellent, let's move on.

This whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict situation began on the Hamas side because three Jewish teenagers were kidnapped -- who provoked that? Hamas? Eventually, those same 3 teenagers were found dead, and the practically next day (or thereabouts), Hamas indirectly took a possible veiled credit for doing the nasty deed..as they claimed *it* was a "failed activity".
*say whaaaaaaaaat?*

Did anyone here say Hamas was not the aggressor here?
Anyone??

All this rocket launching (by Hamas) and defensive Iron-Dome, etc. reaction by the IDF, because of a "failed activity" on the Hamas or Palestinian side (mission implied)...?

Israel doesn't need to declare war. The moment rockets and missiles start getting hurled down at Israeli citizens (and visiting tourists), the other side launching the weapons at Israel has already started a war against them. Since when do local gangs or even neighbors launch rockets at their opposing side/neighbor just to taunt their enemies? Apparently, the definition of a knifing or gun-fight vs. rockets propelled to flat out destroy have the same meaning--that this is just a dispute and NOT an outright war?

Do the powerful have the right to respond in full force?
Or, should they know their own power and not exercise it to it's full potential?
I will warn you up front, that is a trick question to a degree, consider it more weather "might makes right".

Spoiler:

Why on EARTH do you think that anyone is absolving Hamas or Palestine of responsibility??
Just because you QUESTION the actions of one side does not mean that you are IGNORING the acts of the other.

The article didn't seem to answer the question on why Palestinian civilians were placed in harm's way--on the front line. However, there was a recent article stating very specifically that the Palestinians were told to stay put in their homes and NOT evacuate. So, were they advised if they died they'd all become a martyr for their religious belief(s)? Or, as one recent article (somewhere else in the news) stated, some of the Hamas military deliberately dresses up as civilians to blend in with the *innocent* civilians. It was their (Palestinian military) families/friends whose homes were being targeted by the IDF, but the MSM news twisted it into *everyone* being an innocent civilian, instead.

I care not about the wanna be Martyrs, they make a choice, I only care about those who are told "stay or we will shoot you ourselves, the people with NO choice.

**Coco Pops** · 20 July 2014, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

Not really, around 13 Israeli people died in the last day, and around 130 Palestinians. at a rough guess that gives a total of around 37 Israeli's and 420 Palastinians dead in the last 96 hours. Mind you, that is both a rough guess and relying on reported numbers.

If those figures are right, and they've been tossed about on our local news services here.... Isn't that bad that one side has more deaths then the other? Surely it's time now for both sides to sit the hell down and talk?

**Gatefan1976** · 20 July 2014, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post

If those figures are right, and they've been tossed about on our local news services here.... Isn't that bad that one side has more deaths then the other? Surely it's time now for both sides to sit the hell down and talk?

Umm..............
Not exactly.
As Womble noted, there is always casualty disparity in such environments based on training and equipment. If you are prepared to have suicide bombers and poorly trained people that amount to militia then they are simply going to go down in DROVES in comparison to even a single 8 man tactical group. You cannot blame the Israeli's for being better prepared and trained, you simply cannot.

My objection comes from seeing innocent people killed, nothing else.

**Gatefan1976** · 21 July 2014, 03:07 AM

I missed this one, pretty poor on my part.

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

Maybe one more . . .

and more about the Palestinian side--

Do you really think intrusive "intelligence" helps your cause??

When the various (USA) radio programs reported that Israel actually had the phone numbers and email addresses of the residents they warned to evacuate -- that sort of floors the listener. Does Hamas or any other country do this as a general (humanitarian), *safety* procedure? Did A-Q phone ahead to the WTC to WARN the *innocents* there and within several blocks of the same area to evacuate b/c the hijackers were going to crash the planes into the buildings? So, why should Israel give notice ahead of time so everyone can escape, and do so with their most precious belongings?

Just so you know, in the near future I am going to WRECK your life, your belief, and your existence, Please hold now.....
Yeah, that is SO HUMANE!!!!
These "warnings" are terrorist actions in of themselves.
(Yeah, I used the word TERRORIST because that is what they are, "run to the hills or we WILL kill you, and if you ignore us, it is on you")
Good way to launch a bomb, then blame the people hit by it, AND absolve yourself of any guilt!!
Such a Heroic deed, these people deserve a damn MEDAL, not to be vilified by cross-eyed observers...........

What is surprising is that some of the rocket launching equipment was still in the Palestinian homes and other *public* buildings when the IDF actually got there--while ferreting this stuff out. Was it bolted down or portable enough to carry away within a 5 to 20 minute warning notice?

SGalisa, do you have ANY concept on how Military hardware functions?
I ask simply because you really seem to have no Idea how these things work. Hamas is firing Man portable rockets into Israel, so their delivery system can be moved at a moment's notice, it is EXACTLY why they can hide in civilian populations. Israel's defence (Iron Curtain) is performed by highly trained weapon operators from stationary platforms. They are trying to hit targets fired from virtually *anywhere* and the targets are less than 2 meters in length, AND they have seconds to respond.
They really are Highly trained people.

...and the counter-argument (Palestinian version of the same situation)

Spoiler:

That's her POV, which is seemingly echoed by most of the (MSM, etc) world looking at Israel as the evil aggressor in this whole situation.

It's not that we are looking at Israel as the aggressor, we are looking at them using a hammer when they need a scalpel.

For one thing, tunnels aren't made overnight to escape the latest Iron Dome system! Those tunnels have probably been around for decades. It takes TIME to dig out sophisticated labyrinths, such as those tunnels!

Not as long as you think.

So, who's the culprit? Here is speculation----Israel claims Hamas & company built those tunnels. Hamas might state the tunnels have always been there, or that the Israelis built them before handing over Gaza to the Palestinians.

WTF are you talking about??
Seriously, you are getting beyond bong addled dreams here.
Israel built bomb shelters, cause they could afford them, Palestine extended existing cave networks.
Just, please, stop.

The above article showed footage of armed Hamas soldiers climbing out of a tunnel near a Jewish Kibbutz to do what---kill and ambush anyone attempting to stop whatever deed they were about to do? threaten *innocent* populations by kidnapping more Israeli citizens, and then demand outrageous ransoms in return?

And what would happen if the position was reversed?

As mentioned--Many of those *innocent* folks caught in the IDF crossfire were advised by Hamas to stay put/don't leave (or evacuate)--question again is WHY? What purpose does that serve?

Ahh, I see.
Because civilians did not stand up to heavily armed people telling them to "park their arse or get shot", those civilians are cowards?
As to it's purpose, I would think it was pretty obvious, make the Enemy look bad.

**Falcon Horus** · 21 July 2014, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by SoulReaver View Post

(she should've seen it coming)

Oh, I saw it coming...

Originally posted by Coco Pops View Post

Do we have an accurate toll of the dead on both sides during this conflict?

Accurate - probably not, but the Palestinians are sure winning the death toll battle.

I did a quick search for numbers and came up with a United Nations report from 2007, which details the fatalities since 2000. The report is obviously outdated by 7 years but it gives a fair view on the situation.

The Jewish Virtual Library also has a list of Total Casualties in the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Or if you prefer the charts above all else --> This chart shows every person killed in the Israel-Palestine conflict since 2000 (article posted on July 14, 2014)

**Coco Pops** · 21 July 2014, 04:17 PM

I often find, and this isn't aimed at anyone nation or person, that the word TERRORIST is often used as a word to silence any kind of argument or dissenting, or opposing view of the majority.

IMHO

**SGalisa** · 21 July 2014, 05:08 PM

just a quickie reply..

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

Now, can we go back to politics?

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

No..

Unless the following rant(s) are political in nature. IDK.. I've gotten totally confused after reading today's stuff.

Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

I only ask to preserve the integrity of the thread. Our last 2 religious ones were shut down, and I don't really want that to happen again. I am not offended by any of this, I realise we are discussing topics that are held dear to people and they can incite some rather "heated" responses. I also realise that even when barbs are thrown sometimes, they are not *usually* directly at someone, but a viewpoint.

I hope you (Gatefan1976) do realize I *was* teasing when I wrote that "No" -- hence the smilie --

Thought I'd try to lighten up the mood, considering the seriousness of the subjects going on..

BTW, I really did get blurry eyed trying to piece all of the *ranting* quotes and other comments/info together with any articles related to the same items in question or commented about.

Also, any issues connected to Israel in *prophecy* (and there are plenty about them returning to the land where they currently are!) -- I was refraining from posting here, because I have a feeling the conversations reacting to it might end up being rather lengthy, so they won't be posted in this "political" topic, but instead in the "earth's future..." prophecy topic, b/c that is what that topic was set up for -- to keep (most details of) the prophecies off of the political topic.

Not posting about the other items now.
Got some home things to tend to (mending towels & clothes that are falling apart).

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