The Political Discussion Thread

[Womble]

apparently socialist France banned pro-palestinian demonstrations. not a mass protest (if anything the french seem to approve but mostly for security reasons)

Because "pro-Palestinian" protesters tend to be about as peaceful as the Palestinians.

that aside it'd be much more logical for the leftists than the rightists to protest against islamists anyway, considering the doctrine

Maybe, but you know how it is with leftists and logic...

[SoulReaver]

for the whole arab-french prob, France can put the blame on Charles X (even though their ultra-con party denies this)

Maybe, but you know how it is with leftists and logic...

yup same as with rightists & logic :| case in point, it'd be also much more logical for them to approve of islamism, ideologically I mean (which btw also happened in France a few months back, sort of. complicated ****)

[Gatefan1976]

For one, whose count is being relied upon here? Hamas heath ministry? They list anyone out of uniform as civilian, and most of their gunmen don't wear uniforms. If you see a disproportionate number of men of fighting age among those "civilians", you can be sure they're lying.

Secondly, yes. There are plenty of circumstances that will justify killing 9 people to get one. Especially if we are talking about use of human shields.

Kill them all, let God sort it out?
I would like to say I am either saddened or surprised by that response, but I am not.

You're not seriously comparing apprehension of a criminal to war, are you? Because if you are- go to Gaza, serve a warrant.

Declare war then, you know, like the US should have done in Vietnam rather than calling it a police action. War has different rules of engagement, so if you want to call it a war, declare it. If Israel maintained a 20/1 kill ratio in a wartime environment, then I too would be proud of my troops and country.
On the topic of warrents, can we serve some to the IDF over Richard Goldstones report, or would that be challenged, yet again?

Then here's a question for you: how much of Gaza's GDP (including "humanitarian aid" and money funneled by Iran and Qatar that's not in their official GDP) has been spent on protecting civilian population? Because if the answer is none, then the size of Gaza's GDP is completely irrelevant. They can afford to buy thousands of rockets. They can afford five star hotels and shopping malls (Google it). They dig mile-long tunnels buried so deep underground that bombs can barely reach them. But they can't afford public bomb shelters? I call horse manure on this entire line of argument.

Call what you want, foreign aid to Israel is not included either.
What they choose to spend their money on is not my point, what my point is, is that Israel simply can afford to do all the thing you are proud of, AND make civil improvements as well. You seem to think that I agree with Hamas and it's stupidly violent acts towards your country, and I'll tell you flat out. I DON'T.

Oh, I have a case regardless. Even if some of them are unwilling (some are clearly willing), their blood is on those hiding behind them.

So, you are asserting moral superiority here?

None whatsoever. In fact, the more lopsided this count, the more proud I am of my people. Morality is not judged by how successful one is at achieving immoral results.

you mean like killing 9 to get 1?

Israel has every right to defend itself, but is condemned for any practical way of doing so.

By WHOM??

Find me another country that puts so much effort into minimizing civilian casualties among the population that cheers when that country's children get kidnapped and murdered. Find me an army that calls the mobile phones of a building's inhabitants and warns them to get out before they blow that building up. We fight in the most ridiculously lawyerly way ever practiced, under the most byzantine rules of engagement known to man- and it's still not enough for "the world" and it's ever-so-enlightened opinion.

Again
Declare WAR.
Just stop the PC bull and declare outright war on Palestine and Hamas and stop treating it like a "police action" and crying a frigging river when you are held to police action standards. I can find PLENTY of examples of countries that cheers when their military operations are a success in wartime, I can find very few when war is not declared.

So screw that opinion. Shaft it in the rear with a ten foot pole.

Sodomy will not get you very far here.

[SoulReaver]

wait one, doesn't target have to be an "official" country for war to be declarable?

[Gatefan1976]

What is there to tell? Try and find me some leftist mass protest against Islamist brutality. I'm not asking for many, three will do. And then you and I will count all the rallies in which the "libruls" and the Islamist radical stood shoulder to shoulder, screaming "We are all Hezbollah".

In your part of the world?
I dunno If I could.
In the greater world?
Don't even bother, Leftism/liberalism fermented every challenge to the Status Quo in history.

You seem to think that Liberal and "leftism" is accepting of what goes on in places such as the Middle East, or want to greet Sharia Law with open arms and you could not be further from the truth. Sharia law is "law on a Coke/meth cocktail" and I don't want it anywhere NEAR me. I ALSO don't want Judeo-Christian law anywhere near me EITHER. People seem to mistake, CONSTANTLY that a desire for people to be able to express themselves means that they will suck up and subjugate themselves to one viewpoint. Chaos and discord are *inevitable*, and healthy to a degree. They force us to look at ourselves and our beliefs and challenge them.

Will we ALSO count the rallies where Judeo-Christian and Islamist feelings co-inside as well??

[Gatefan1976]

wait one, doesn't target have to be an "official" country for war to be declarable?

Yes it does, but Palestine *is* a country now, as is Qatar, or Iran. HOWEVER, there is nothing to stop a country from targeting specific portions of the population to dedicate their war machine against. It's odd to think of, but a official "war" might actually be better for the people in the area. Hamas will not be stopped by "police actions" as those police actions will inevitably have civilian costs that can be propaganda leveraged to fuel an organization such as Hamas, much like any other "gang like" organization.

I would rather see Israel absorb the entire area into it's borders, and deal with the extremists internally after that.

[Womble]

In your part of the world?

No, in yours.

But with concrete examples please. Not abstract musings.

[Womble]

Kill them all, let God sort it out?
I would like to say I am either saddened or surprised by that response, but I am not.

I, for one am, since it wasn't what I said. But whatever.

Declare war then, you know, like the US should have done in Vietnam rather than calling it a police action. War has different rules of engagement, so if you want to call it a war, declare it. If Israel maintained a 20/1 kill ratio in a wartime environment, then I too would be proud of my troops and country.

You're kidding, right? Who is calling it a police action? It's a military operation, pure and simple, no one has ever called it anything else. It's a war that's been declared against us decades ago, and it never ended. Does it need to be declared anew every week? And will you really quit it with the crocodile tears for the civilians of Gaza if only someone calls it war?

On the topic of warrents, can we serve some to the IDF over Richard Goldstones report, or would that be challenged, yet again?

The Goldstone report was such nonsense that it was eventually disavowed by Goldstone himself. But anti-Israel lies are like Freddy Kruger- kill them a hundred times, they still come back when someone wants to shoot a sequel.

What they choose to spend their money on is not my point

And that's why your point is invalid.

So, you are asserting moral superiority here?

Hell yes. An absolute, unquestionable moral superiority. Both over the Palestinians and over Israel's accusers.

you mean like killing 9 to get 1?

If that's what it takes to save a single life inside Israel, yes.

By WHOM??

You, among others, right here right now.

Just stop the PC bull and declare outright war on Palestine and Hamas and stop treating it like a "police action" and crying a frigging river when you are held to police action standards. I can find PLENTY of examples of countries that cheers when their military operations are a success in wartime, I can find very few when war is not declared.

Well then, a counter-suggestion- tell the world to go shaft itself with that ten foot pole instead of demanding that we "avoid escalation" And quit the crocodile tears about how many people died in Gaza. Once you drop your own PC bull, you can ask others to do the same. Not before.

[Gatefan1976]

No, in yours.

But with concrete examples please. Not abstract musings.

None, I offer no example of what you are after. I can point out the unemployment disparity here due to someone being a Muslim and for no other reason, and I can point to similar results across the west, and I can offer that to your "court" on just how much even leftist people are concerned about radical thought of any kind that lead to such acts, but that's all "Anecdotal" isn't it?

[Gatefan1976]

I, for one am, since it wasn't what I said. But whatever.

Actually, you did.

You're kidding, right? Who is calling it a police action? It's a military operation, pure and simple, no one has ever called it anything else. It's a war that's been declared against us decades ago, and it never ended. Does it need to be declared anew every week? And will you really quit it with the crocodile tears for the civilians of Gaza if only someone calls it war?

I have no "crocodile tears" for Hamas, they are a hate organization. I reserve my tears for the innocent victims on both sides, sorry if you feel I should reserve them for you.

The Goldstone report was such nonsense that it was eventually disavowed by Goldstone himself. But anti-Israel lies are like Freddy Kruger- kill them a hundred times, they still come back when someone wants to shoot a sequel.

Here we go..........
It's ALWAYS someone else, or their views because they do not align. If *I* stood shoulder to shoulder with you, you would call me a hero, but if I disagree at any point, I hate Israel, or I am an Anti-Jew, or Anti- Zionist.
Neat package you have going on.

And that's why your point is invalid.

No, it is not I that has no point or it's invalid, it is your rationalization that is invalid. You would not have the "Iron Curtain" or the advanced weapons, or ANYTHING if half or more your GDP was spent on weaponry. It's nice you seem to ignore now the "rest of the world" who HELPED you get to that point and tell them to grab a 10 ft poll and think you are responsible somehow, but, go on, you can believe it if you want.
Heil Israel I guess............

Hell yes. An absolute, unquestionable moral superiority. Both over the Palestinians and over Israel's accusers.

From WHO??

If that's what it takes to save a single life inside Israel, yes.

Why is any Israeli life more valuable than any other?
Who are YOU to determine that?
Are you GOD?

You, among others, right here right now.

What a load of utter self important GARBAGE.
If I question, I am the ENEMY, If I disobey, I am the ENEMY. You know who thinks like that, Islamic extremists who cower behind others under the guise of Sharia law.

I am not your Enemy.

Well then, a counter-suggestion- tell the world to go shaft itself with that ten foot pole instead of demanding that we "avoid escalation" And quit the crocodile tears about how many people died in Gaza. Once you drop your own PC bull, you can ask others to do the same. Not before.

I have no PC bull, I am merely an observer, and my observations lead me to the conclusion that Israel cares not a hoot about who it kills, therefore merely increasing the local hate and aiding in the radicalization of others. It is no more than the vicious cycle of hate and retaliation we have seen for centuries, if not millennia.
Grow up.

[KEK]

You don't get it Gatefan1976, if you criticize Israel or Zionism it's because you're an anti-Semite and an illogical leftist. It's definitely not because you care about oppression, war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing etc.

[Gatefan1976]

You don't get it Gatefan1976, if you criticize Israel or Zionism it's because you're an anti-Semite and an illogical leftist. It's definitely not because you care about oppression, war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing etc.

Oh no KEK, I get it well.
Here I Stand, supported by a person I have had rabid fanbased discussions against in you KEK over Stargate, yet we see past our differences when it comes to actual real world things, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for that.
There is no sarcasm there, that is the truth and again, I thank you.

[Womble]

None, I offer no example of what you are after.

Then my point is proven.

[Womble]

You don't get it Gatefan1976, if you criticize Israel or Zionism it's because you're an anti-Semite and an illogical leftist. It's definitely not because you care about oppression, war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing etc.

Most of the time, it's disturbingly true. Especially when one examines the cases in which oppression of any kind bothers said critics and in which it doesn't bother them at all or gets endorsed by them.

You get a B for an attempt at irony, though. A consolation prize.

[Gatefan1976]

Then my point is proven.

Yes, you have no point, and you just proved it.