The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

RAW BS.

No total economic truth.
Better educated folks create more income, which provides more for the state.

This "investment", like any other is a gamble; the guy is betting that he'll get ahead by making this bet.

Banks make this gamble every day, and they work., and are profitable.
You know why?
It's not a gamble, it's a risk assessment.

He chose to make the bet, if he loses, why is that anyone else's problem?

It is the STATE making the gamble, not the student.

If I go to Vegas or the Wall Street Casino and lose my shorts, why is that anyone else's problem?

We would have to look at you.

[Gatefan1976]

I think that is a no Chaka

More like "what is mathematics"

[Womble]

Programs to give interest free loans for X amount of years is something that works very well. You do know that students get out of University with crippling debts, some up to 100-200k for Dr's.? Not having a job when they get out of school sometimes for months/years?

That's why smarter Americans send their children to Europe to get quality education on the cheap.

[Annoyed]

That's why smarter Americans send their children to Europe to get quality education on the cheap.

Question. Do folks in Europe have to pay for their own education, or are the taxpayers expected to pay for it as it is here, with oodles of assistance programs?

[Womble]

So my dilemma who to vote for has been resolved by the shifting sands of Israeli politics.

The name of the game in these elections is consolidation. Small parties are forming blocks in order to make themselves more attractive. Yair Lapid joined forces with Benny Gantz, former IDF Chief of Staff who has only gone into politics this December. The block - called "Blue and White" -includes two more former IDF Chiefs of Staff, Moshe Yaalon and Gabi Ashkenazi, both of whom have a good reputation. This created a powerful centrist party, which the forecasters say may unseat the Likud as the largest party in the next Knesset. According to the terms of the merge, Benny Ganz is expected to be Prime Minister for the first 2.5 years should they win, to be replaced by Yair Lapid for the next 1.5 years. Netanyahu called the new party a "union of left-wing generals posing as right-wing", but he is clearly feeling threatened. I could vote for these guys, they seem sensible enough and Yair Lapid's anti-clerical position means they will not allow religious parties too much influence.

Netanyahu's Likud is also scrambling for allies in order to form a right-wing block - and they are reaching way, way too far to the right, incorporating ideological descendants of the racist Kach. I can't vote for that.

The Left is in free fall. Former Labor's Tzipi Livni has abandoned politics, and what's left of Labor has been reduced to a small party of 5 to 8 seats. Meretz is stuck, smaller parties are forecast to disappear entirely.

Oh, and the Arab parties are trying to form a block as well. Good luck with that. Communists, hardline Palestinian nationalists and Islamic Movement representatives aren't any kind of good at cooperating.

[aretood2]

Question. Do folks in Europe have to pay for their own education, or are the taxpayers expected to pay for it as it is here, with oodles of assistance programs?

For the most part, it is free in Europe to get a university education. And there are also oodles of assistance programs.

So my dilemma who to vote for has been resolved by the shifting sands of Israeli politics.

The name of the game in these elections is consolidation. Small parties are forming blocks in order to make themselves more attractive. Yair Lapid joined forces with Benny Gantz, former IDF Chief of Staff who has only gone into politics this December. The block - called "Blue and White" -includes two more former IDF Chiefs of Staff, Moshe Yaalon and Gabi Ashkenazi, both of whom have a good reputation. This created a powerful centrist party, which the forecasters say may unseat the Likud as the largest party in the next Knesset. According to the terms of the merge, Benny Ganz is expected to be Prime Minister for the first 2.5 years should they win, to be replaced by Yair Lapid for the next 1.5 years. Netanyahu called the new party a "union of left-wing generals posing as right-wing", but he is clearly feeling threatened. I could vote for these guys, they seem sensible enough and Yair Lapid's anti-clerical position means they will not allow religious parties too much influence.

Netanyahu's Likud is also scrambling for allies in order to form a right-wing block - and they are reaching way, way too far to the right, incorporating ideological descendants of the racist Kach. I can't vote for that.

The Left is in free fall. Former Labor's Tzipi Livni has abandoned politics, and what's left of Labor has been reduced to a small party of 5 to 8 seats. Meretz is stuck, smaller parties are forecast to disappear entirely.

Oh, and the Arab parties are trying to form a block as well. Good luck with that. Communists, hardline Palestinian nationalists and Islamic Movement representatives aren't any kind of good at cooperating.

Good luck, I doubt Israel could afford being any further to the right in the long term.

[Gatefan1976]

Question. Do folks in Europe have to pay for their own education, or are the taxpayers expected to pay for it as it is here, with oodles of assistance programs?

It's a factored in part of tax, so your answer is "yes and no"
There are no "assistance programs" such as you see them in the US, but you might see things like deferred loans so as not to swamp new taxpayers. You get an education, and when you start making X amount, you start paying back the loan. Think of it like this, When you get your base pay for your job based on education, you pay your fee's back. As a mechanic, you would not have paid for your education, until as a mechanic, you could pay it back without putting you into the poorhouse.
It's not about "dodging accountability", it's putting it where it is a viable option.
This is the reality of "free education", it's not "free", it's an investment into the future taken on behalf of the state so those kids can pay them more in the long run.
Does it fail sometimes? YES.
Does it produce more than it fails? YES.

[Annoyed]

For the most part, it is free in Europe to get a university education. And there are also oodles of assistance programs.

It's a factored in part of tax, so your answer is "yes and no"
There are no "assistance programs" such as you see them in the US, but you might see things like deferred loans so as not to swamp new taxpayers. You get an education, and when you start making X amount, you start paying back the loan. Think of it like this, When you get your base pay for your job based on education, you pay your fee's back. As a mechanic, you would not have paid for your education, until as a mechanic, you could pay it back without putting you into the poorhouse.
It's not about "dodging accountability", it's putting it where it is a viable option.
This is the reality of "free education", it's not "free", it's an investment into the future taken on behalf of the state so those kids can pay them more in the long run.
Does it fail sometimes? YES.
Does it produce more than it fails? YES.

But that's the point. In the US, the education industry knows that their incoming young skulls full of mush can get everyone and their mother to pay the bills, so they are free to charge as much as they want, because they know that the kid can sign loans, get grants and such. This has driven the cost of secondary education into the stratosphere.

If on the other hand, little Jane & Johnny had to pay the freight out of their own pockets directly, without the taxpayers picking up the tab, there would be hard limits as to what they could charge; if they jack the price too high, no one can afford it so market forces drive their price back down. This lowers the cost to everyone, and would greatly reduce the amount that has to be borrowed.

[Gatefan1976]

But that's the point. In the US, the education industry knows that their incoming young skulls full of mush can get everyone and their mother to pay the bills, so they are free to charge as much as they want, because they know that the kid can sign loans, get grants and such. This has driven the cost of secondary education into the stratosphere.

Wrong.
No argument here, you are just utterly wrong.

If on the other hand, little Jane & Johnny had to pay the freight out of their own pockets directly, without the taxpayers picking up the tab, there would be hard limits as to what they could charge; if they jack the price too high, no one can afford it so market forces drive their price back down. This lowers the cost to everyone, and would greatly reduce the amount that has to be borrowed.

You really want to reduce America into the realm of burger flippers.
You are beyond stupid, you want to turn your entire culture into slaves.

[Annoyed]

Wrong.
No argument here, you are just utterly wrong.

You really want to reduce America into the realm of burger flippers.
You are beyond stupid, you want to turn your entire culture into slaves.

No, you don't get it.
Life shouldn't be handed to anyone on a silver platter. You should have to earn the life you have. You want to put X units of effort towards a better life, you get X lifestyle points, or whatever, I think you get the idea.

Anything else is stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Which is fine, unless you happen to be Peter.

[SoulReaver]

No, you don't get it.
Life shouldn't be handed to anyone on a silver platter.

wait I get it! it shouldn't be handed to them at their bidding...
...on the other hand it should be forced on them against their will
#againstlife #forlife #Prolife

[Annoyed]

wait I get it! it shouldn't be handed to them at their bidding...
...on the other hand it should be forced on them against their will
#againstlife #forlife #Prolife

Well, that might make sense in some universe. Certainly not this one.

[Gatefan1976]

No, you don't get it.
Life shouldn't be handed to anyone on a silver platter.

Your entire life was handed to you on a silver platter. Oh, you had to work, but the conditions for a single person to have a house, a car, a boat and vacation time was based on your parents and grandparents giving a damn about "little annoyed" having a chance, and you grow up to deny that to anyone else.
Just how sad and self centred are you?

You should have to earn the life you have. You want to put X units of effort towards a better life, you get X lifestyle points, or whatever, I think you get the idea.

There is nothing wrong with "earning" a good life, there is a lot wrong with the system telling you your "X units" are worth .5 or .25 in comparison to yours.

Anything else is stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Which is fine, unless you happen to be Peter.

You are Paul, not Peter.

[Chaka-Z0]

No, you don't get it.
Life shouldn't be handed to anyone on a silver platter. You should have to earn the life you have.

There is nothing wrong with "earning" a good life, there is a lot wrong with the system telling you your "X units" are worth .5 or .25 in comparison to yours.

1- Jobs have shifted from manual to automation, everything is becoming knowledge / creativeness oriented.

2- Any individual, immigrant or native born, should be given as much support as possible to integrate society as a specialized worker in a specific field, whatever it is. EVEN if that means giving extra money to those who arrive late in the game (immigration).

3- The average annual salary will increase exponentially as the years go by, boosting the quality of life overall

4- Profit

[Annoyed]

Your entire life was handed to you on a silver platter. Oh, you had to work, but the conditions for a single person to have a house, a car, a boat and vacation time was based on your parents and grandparents giving a damn about "little annoyed" having a chance, and you grow up to deny that to anyone else.
Just how sad and self centred are you?

There is nothing wrong with "earning" a good life, there is a lot wrong with the system telling you your "X units" are worth .5 or .25 in comparison to yours.

You are Paul, not Peter.

I know I have been fairly lucky in comparison to some folks. But haven't I said that blind luck, good or bad is the single most important factor affecting anyone's life? It's not fair, but there it sits, an undeniable fact.

And when have I ever said to deny anything? If someone is able to get rich legally, by their own efforts, why is it any concern of mine? Or of the people who would take that earned money away from such people with 70% tax rates, wealth taxes and all the rest?

The only denial aspect would be illegal immigration. No, I'm sorry. If you want to migrate here, do it properly and legally. Show up at the front door, and follow the process. The only thing sneaking in or overstaying your visa should get you is a quick trip to your point of entry. Where you go after that is your business, not ours.

But, we were discussing college costs. Which would be significantly lower if the education industry couldn't count on their customers being able to get free money for the simple reason that without all that free money, very few could afford the rates they charge, so the rates would have to come down or they would go out of business.