The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

I know I have been fairly lucky in comparison to some folks. But haven't I said that blind luck, good or bad is the single most important factor affecting anyone's life? It's not fair, but there it sits, an undeniable fact.

It wasn't LUCK, it was foresight by the people designing the system.

And when have I ever said to deny anything? If someone is able to get rich legally, by their own efforts, why is it any concern of mine? Or of the people who would take that earned money away from such people with 70% tax rates, wealth taxes and all the rest?

Who pays 70% tax RIGHT NOW.
No One, which is what your argument is about, NO ONE.

The only denial aspect would be illegal immigration. No, I'm sorry. If you want to migrate here, do it properly and legally. Show up at the front door, and follow the process. The only thing sneaking in or overstaying your visa should get you is a quick trip to your point of entry. Where you go after that is your business, not ours.

Fine.
Just learn the difference between an immigrant and a refugee.

But, we were discussing college costs. Which would be significantly lower if the education industry couldn't count on their customers being able to get free money for the simple reason that without all that free money, very few could afford the rates they charge, so the rates would have to come down or they would go out of business.

-FACEPALM-

[Annoyed]

It wasn't LUCK, it was foresight by the people designing the system.

It certainly is luck. My words were:

"blind luck, good or bad is the single most important factor affecting anyone's life? It's not fair, but there it sits, an undeniable fact."

Either you or I could have been born into a family with riches beyond belief in most free (well, it's supposed to be, anyway) nation on the face of the earth, looking forward to a life of leisurely pursuits into whatever struck our fancy with no thought needed of how to support one's self, or into abject poverty beyond despair to a drug-addled single parent in worst hellhole on the the planet where famine, disease and an early death are givens. Either of us could have been born with severe mental or physical handicaps. Or, our mothers could have decided that we were inconvenient at this time in their lives and killed us. Hell, I could have even ended up in some country that is upside down and the water circles the drain backwards!

Blind luck, nothing more. And it's not fair. Neither you, I or anyone else can make it fair, because life is inherently unfair. Some people get a better shake than others. I'm just grateful that I got what I call a middle of the scale shake.

Who pays 70% tax RIGHT NOW.
No One, which is what your argument is about, NO ONE.

Isn't that what the Kindergartner and other far left progressives are proposing?

Fine.
Just learn the difference between an immigrant and a refugee.

A "refugee" is someone fleeing political persecution. The term does not include those fleeing poor economic conditions in their native lands, I don't care what the liberals have tried to redefine the term to include.

But that's the big trick of the left these days, isn't it, expanding the definition of terms that describe unacceptable behavior to include whatever they want, such as expanding the term "bullying" to include kids calling each other names in social media. You can't possibly bully someone who is not physically in the same place you are; we haven't yet figured out how to transmit a punch in the mouth over a wire.

[Womble]

Question. Do folks in Europe have to pay for their own education, or are the taxpayers expected to pay for it as it is here, with oodles of assistance programs?

Oh it's worse than your worst fears, my friend.

Germany has two types of universities - private ones, which finance themselves from fees, and public ones subsidized by the German taxpayer. Private universities cost around $24 000 per year, but in public universities, undegraduates pay only administrative fees of between $300 and $550 per semester. Master degree is free if consecutive (as in right after bachelor degree), otherwise it can be up to $25 000, although many of the top universities charge much less ($5000 in Heidelberg). PhD is $300 per semester in administrative fees.

Basically, tuition and living expenses COMBINED in the Technical University of Munich costs less than a third of what you pay for tuition fees alone in, say, the University of Michigan, while the quality of education is easily comparable. And yes, all that is available to foreigners for the same prices. just need to meet the qualifications. I am endlessly baffled why Americans still send their children to study in America. It's just not smart.

[Annoyed]

Oh it's worse than your worst fears, my friend.

Germany has two types of universities - private ones, which finance themselves from fees, and public ones subsidized by the German taxpayer. Private universities cost around $24 000 per year, but in public universities, undegraduates pay only administrative fees of between $300 and $550 per semester. Master degree is free if consecutive (as in right after bachelor degree), otherwise it can be up to $25 000, although many of the top universities charge much less ($5000 in Heidelberg). PhD is $300 per semester in administrative fees.

Basically, tuition and living expenses COMBINED in the Technical University of Munich costs less than a third of what you pay for tuition fees alone in, say, the University of Michigan, while the quality of education is easily comparable. And yes, all that is available to foreigners for the same prices. just need to meet the qualifications. I am endlessly baffled why Americans still send their children to study in America. It's just not smart.

And what is the source of the money? Where do the students obtain it? Their own resources, or govt. funding sources?

[aretood2]

I know I have been fairly lucky in comparison to some folks. But haven't I said that blind luck, good or bad is the single most important factor affecting anyone's life? It's not fair, but there it sits, an undeniable fact.

And when have I ever said to deny anything? If someone is able to get rich legally, by their own efforts, why is it any concern of mine? Or of the people who would take that earned money away from such people with 70% tax rates, wealth taxes and all the rest?

The only denial aspect would be illegal immigration. No, I'm sorry. If you want to migrate here, do it properly and legally. Show up at the front door, and follow the process. The only thing sneaking in or overstaying your visa should get you is a quick trip to your point of entry. Where you go after that is your business, not ours.

But, we were discussing college costs. Which would be significantly lower if the education industry couldn't count on their customers being able to get free money for the simple reason that without all that free money, very few could afford the rates they charge, so the rates would have to come down or they would go out of business.

One of the costs that the rest of the world doesn't deal with is living expenses. In other countries, mass transit or living with relatives cuts down the prices (not to mention smaller geographical scale, but there are enough good schools in the US spread out to cancel out the issue of distance). And interesting note is that US universities spend more on other staff than on the professors themselves when compared to those of Europe and other developed nations. Marketing is a big part of that as well as sports (the advertising boons somehow don't make it back to the schools). And as Womble mentioned, those other countries' governments throw money at the universities per student.

You take what little aid US gives to students, and you have a dramatic decrease of college students for at least a generation. You'll have most of the smaller colleges closing as their infrastructure (both human and material) can't just be rolled back to offset the loss in revenue. The rich will continue to be able to afford to send their kids even if colleges increase rates (which will happen) because the rich can absorb the cost to a much greater degree than any middle class, let alone working class, family could ever. Colleges would also have to cut back on scholarships to help offset the costs. We would basically see a brain drain as future einsteins are squandered because they are too poor to afford college.

In the meantime, the rest of the developed world and the richer of the nearly developed world would leave us behind in as our population effectively becomes dumber than theirs. The rich would all have their favorite colleges and thus no incentive for new ones to open. Because colleges operate on prestige and not just price, lowering tuition would be a sign of lower prestige so they won't have any real incentive to lower tuition. This is the part where you seem to misunderstand economics. Economies of scale don't apply to services like colleges for that reason (among a few others). Harvard could take in 10,000 more students and it would still be as expensive. The reverse is also true. It can cut its student population in half and tuition would not change, if anything it would be increased and as I mentioned the rich would be perfectly able to absorb that increase.

You see, the rich pay for things at much higher prices not because those things are necessarily of better quality but because they are status symbols. There's no benefit to living in a massive mansion, after a certain point, there is no increase luxury. For example, there's no change in quality of life in moving from a mansion the size of the White House to one the size of the Palace of Versailles. There is a drastic change of quality of life moving from a trailer no bigger than a pick up to a 4 bedroom home with a dining room, living room, kitchen, study, garage, and small personal gym.

Oh it's worse than your worst fears, my friend.

Germany has two types of universities - private ones, which finance themselves from fees, and public ones subsidized by the German taxpayer. Private universities cost around $24 000 per year, but in public universities, undegraduates pay only administrative fees of between $300 and $550 per semester. Master degree is free if consecutive (as in right after bachelor degree), otherwise it can be up to $25 000, although many of the top universities charge much less ($5000 in Heidelberg). PhD is $300 per semester in administrative fees.

Basically, tuition and living expenses COMBINED in the Technical University of Munich costs less than a third of what you pay for tuition fees alone in, say, the University of Michigan, while the quality of education is easily comparable. And yes, all that is available to foreigners for the same prices. just need to meet the qualifications. I am endlessly baffled why Americans still send their children to study in America. It's just not smart.

A lot of arguments made in politics tend to preclude the possibility that X (whatever is being debated) already is true in another country and at times is done ironically (or not) despite that the question of whether or not X can work has been answered elsewhere. Then come the excuses. Though granted, sometimes that elsewhere has other variables that aren't in play here in the US that can change things. But when it comes to education, this is certainly a case of the former and not the latter.

As for Americans sending kids back home, I have no idea myself. If I were in their place and lived in Europe I really don't know why I would bother the expense of an American school when you could get a cheaper education in a world class European school. They only possible answer would be the off occasion where those kids get some sort of deal to study in the more prestigious US schools...but I somehow doubt that's what you are referring to.

[Gatefan1976]

And what is the source of the money? Where do the students obtain it? Their own resources, or govt. funding sources?

Why does that matter?

[Gatefan1976]

It certainly is luck. My words were:
Either you or I could have been born into a family with riches beyond belief in most free (well, it's supposed to be, anyway) nation on the face of the earth, looking forward to a life of leisurely pursuits into whatever struck our fancy with no thought needed of how to support one's self, or into abject poverty beyond despair to a drug-addled single parent in worst hellhole on the the planet where famine, disease and an early death are givens. Either of us could have been born with severe mental or physical handicaps. Or, our mothers could have decided that we were inconvenient at this time in their lives and killed us. Hell, I could have even ended up in some country that is upside down and the water circles the drain backwards!

So, what you are saying is, the difference between the first world, and the 3rd world, is luck?

Blind luck, nothing more. And it's not fair. Neither you, I or anyone else can make it fair, because life is inherently unfair. Some people get a better shake than others. I'm just grateful that I got what I call a middle of the scale shake.

Your middle of the scale shake was a design by society, not your parents individually. Dear lord, you don't even know what a society is!

Isn't that what the Kindergartner and other far left progressives are proposing?

On people making more money than they could ever spend in a lifetime, not YOU, or even the people 10 steps above you.

A "refugee" is someone fleeing political persecution. The term does not include those fleeing poor economic conditions in their native lands, I don't care what the liberals have tried to redefine the term to include.

It's not the liberals, it's the LAW, it is the society that you live in that has defined the term, not just a political party.

But that's the big trick of the left these days, isn't it, expanding the definition of terms that describe unacceptable behavior to include whatever they want, such as expanding the term "bullying" to include kids calling each other names in social media. You can't possibly bully someone who is not physically in the same place you are; we haven't yet figured out how to transmit a punch in the mouth over a wire.

Again, that's the LAW.
https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/...lt_battery.htm
Your ignorance of the law does not allow you to re-interpret it.

[Womble]

And what is the source of the money? Where do the students obtain it? Their own resources, or govt. funding sources?

The majority of the cost is government-funded, as I explained, the students only pay several hundred Euros per semester, which is quite manageable for virtually every German family, including unemployed immigrants like my parents were at the time my sister was studying. Yes, a German resident can pay for their child's education while being on welfare. Imagine that.

You are probably wondering how it pays off? It's about the long game. For one, it creates genuine equal opportunity playing field. My sister, a daughter of immigrants who came to Germany with nothing, is now a Steuerberater - certified tax advisor, a high-paid professional whose taxes have long ago repaid whatever the government invested in her education. About half of all foreign students who take advantage of German free education stay in Germany and contribute to economy. It also forges science and technology partnerships between German academics and their colleagues in other countries who, due to their own German education, will naturally prefer to work with Germans over other partners.

[mad_gater]

One of the costs that the rest of the world doesn't deal with is living expenses. In other countries, mass transit or living with relatives cuts down the prices (not to mention smaller geographical scale, but there are enough good schools in the US spread out to cancel out the issue of distance). And interesting note is that US universities spend more on other staff than on the professors themselves when compared to those of Europe and other developed nations. Marketing is a big part of that as well as sports (the advertising boons somehow don't make it back to the schools). And as Womble mentioned, those other countries' governments throw money at the universities per student.

You take what little aid US gives to students, and you have a dramatic decrease of college students for at least a generation. You'll have most of the smaller colleges closing as their infrastructure (both human and material) can't just be rolled back to offset the loss in revenue. The rich will continue to be able to afford to send their kids even if colleges increase rates (which will happen) because the rich can absorb the cost to a much greater degree than any middle class, let alone working class, family could ever. Colleges would also have to cut back on scholarships to help offset the costs. We would basically see a brain drain as future einsteins are squandered because they are too poor to afford college.

In the meantime, the rest of the developed world and the richer of the nearly developed world would leave us behind in as our population effectively becomes dumber than theirs. The rich would all have their favorite colleges and thus no incentive for new ones to open. Because colleges operate on prestige and not just price, lowering tuition would be a sign of lower prestige so they won't have any real incentive to lower tuition. This is the part where you seem to misunderstand economics. Economies of scale don't apply to services like colleges for that reason (among a few others). Harvard could take in 10,000 more students and it would still be as expensive. The reverse is also true. It can cut its student population in half and tuition would not change, if anything it would be increased and as I mentioned the rich would be perfectly able to absorb that increase.

You see, the rich pay for things at much higher prices not because those things are necessarily of better quality but because they are status symbols. There's no benefit to living in a massive mansion, after a certain point, there is no increase luxury. For example, there's no change in quality of life in moving from a mansion the size of the White House to one the size of the Palace of Versailles. There is a drastic change of quality of life moving from a trailer no bigger than a pick up to a 4 bedroom home with a dining room, living room, kitchen, study, garage, and small personal gym.




A lot of arguments made in politics tend to preclude the possibility that X (whatever is being debated) already is true in another country and at times is done ironically (or not) despite that the question of whether or not X can work has been answered elsewhere. Then come the excuses. Though granted, sometimes that elsewhere has other variables that aren't in play here in the US that can change things. But when it comes to education, this is certainly a case of the former and not the latter.

As for Americans sending kids back home, I have no idea myself. If I were in their place and lived in Europe I really don't know why I would bother the expense of an American school when you could get a cheaper education in a world class European school. They only possible answer would be the off occasion where those kids get some sort of deal to study in the more prestigious US schools...but I somehow doubt that's what you are referring to.

What's wrong with trade schools? They're a viable option and cost a heck of a lot less than these 4-year colleges and universities usually packed full of Bernie-style left-wingers for professors.....unless you intend to imply that those who don't get educated at a college or university are somehow less intelligent than those who do....an implication that I can assure you would have more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

[Womble]

As for Americans sending kids back home, I have no idea myself. If I were in their place and lived in Europe I really don't know why I would bother the expense of an American school when you could get a cheaper education in a world class European school. They only possible answer would be the off occasion where those kids get some sort of deal to study in the more prestigious US schools...but I somehow doubt that's what you are referring to.

I think most people are simply not aware that it's an option.

I advise this to all my American friends, but most seem quite squeamish about the idea of sending their child to another country. It's a comfort zone problem; studying abroad is too radical an idea for most Americans who are culturally conditioned to be homebodies; it requires a certain level of open-mindedness and being ready to up and change your life which not everyone has. I think lack of readiness to learn a foreign language plays a role. Another factor is that most American employers are as ignorant as your average American, and seeing "Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich" on one's resume tells them nothing. They may prefer someone with a Fayetteville State University degree instead simply because it sounds more American to their ear.

[Coco Pops]

OK this will upset a few of you.

It's OK to discriminate because Trump does, that's the justification here.

https://shareblue.com/massachusetts-...SseTkRxJUJ6m3w

[Gatefan1976]

What's wrong with trade schools? They're a viable option and cost a heck of a lot less than these 4-year colleges and universities usually packed full of Bernie-style left-wingers for professors.....unless you intend to imply that those who don't get educated at a college or university are somehow less intelligent than those who do....an implication that I can assure you would have more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Nothing at all, trade schools are brilliant. One thing I will absolutely agree with you on is the undervaluing of trade education, in a hell of a lot of countries. Trade is local and needed, and part of the service economy.

[Annoyed]

So, what you are saying is, the difference between the first world, and the 3rd world, is luck?

Your middle of the scale shake was a design by society, not your parents individually. Dear lord, you don't even know what a society is!

You're not understanding me. "I", or the mental entity that is considered to be "me" could have been born to any female on the planet, (or been aborted by one). I was just lucky to have been born into middle of the road circumstances.

That is entirely blind luck. I know, this is hard to accept, because it utterly destroys the illusion that we control our own destiny, which most humans hold dear.

On people making more money than they could ever spend in a lifetime, not YOU, or even the people 10 steps above you.

Are you forgetting that the super rich just leave the jurisdiction, as we are seeing in NY? The libs don't abandon their pipe dreams, though, so the taxes are levied upon those with lower incomes. Also, businesses don't just pay taxes, they pass them to the consumer of their products in the form of higher prices.

You just don't get it. when the govt. levies taxes, it is the working man that ends up paying them, one way or another.

[Annoyed]

What's wrong with trade schools? They're a viable option and cost a heck of a lot less than these 4-year colleges and universities usually packed full of Bernie-style left-wingers for professors.....unless you intend to imply that those who don't get educated at a college or university are somehow less intelligent than those who do....an implication that I can assure you would have more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Very true. Our society places very little financial value on skills learned outside of the college path. The marketing arm of the educational industry he pretty much molded society so that going to college and giving them oodles of money is simply buying your admittance ticket to middle class world.

[Annoyed]

OK this will upset a few of you.

It's OK to discriminate because Trump does, that's the justification here.

https://shareblue.com/massachusetts-...SseTkRxJUJ6m3w

Why would I be upset at what some clearly biased site prints?