North and South (Novel and BBC Adaptation)

[Blue Banrigh]

Hehe... we have our fourth poster...

Margaret doesn't have much tact when it comes to dismissing marriage proposals... what was that other fella's name? She shut him down pretty quickly as well... gotta admire her bluntness.

[Easter Lily]

Fifth actually... I think Imo's posted here as well...
The other suitor in question is Henry Lennox..

Hi Esther...
Good to have you here... we would love to have more of our British friends posting here as well... but I supposed it's been six months since the show aired over there.

In general I can't disagree with what you've said... but it still doesn't take away from the fact that Margaret was unnecessarily harsh in her rejection of Thornton. Perhaps she lacks the maturity to deal with situations such as this. I don't think Thornton was angry because she had rejected him outright but that she seemed so unreasonable about it and IMO was more forceful than she really needed to be. From his point of view, she didn't seem so unamenable towards him on various occasions and when she threw herself between him and the rioters, well, what else could anyone think? I agree that Mrs Thornton did play a part in encouraging him but I still believe that he already had more or less made up his mind about Margaret and was prepared to go the distance no matter what. Why he did so early on, we can only speculate... In my more cynical moments I could say that it was a plot device to compound the uncomfortable dynamic that already exists... but I won't

I also don't think she was entirely honest with him in her rejection either. Did she really detest him that much? Perhaps she did or perhaps she misread his intentions.
At that stage I don't think that Margaret was ready at all for a long-term relationship of this magnitude. She was still a starry-eyed idealist and in love with her past. It was probably necessary for her to embark on this journey before coming full circle...

[smallgirl]

I also don't think she was entirely honest with him in her rejection either. Did she really detest him that much? Perhaps she did or perhaps she misread his intentions.
At that stage I don't think that Margaret was ready at all for a long-term relationship of this magnitude. She was still a starry-eyed idealist and in love with her past. It was probably necessary for her to embark on this journey before coming full circle...

Definitely agree that Margaret wasn't ready for the relationship. I don't think she detested him as much as she made out. She wouldn't have tried to talk to him about the workers the way she did or intervened on his behalf, if she really despised him. I think she did misread his intentions. I agree with BB about her being bad at dealing with proposals. She didn't handle the Henry one well either. However I sympathised with her over that too. He suddenly turned up at her home and proposed and seemed somewhat surprised that she rejected him. She didn't see that one coming either. I don't know whether it is because of the times but you get the impression that all young women of a certain age are expected to leap at the first offer of matrimony. Margaret had led an isolated country existence, she wasn't comfortable in London as well as Milton. In the society of the time young women were encouraged to think about catching a husband as being very important and Margaret wasn't interested in that. She had made a comment whilst with him in London that he took completely the wrong way because he was used to women only being friendly when they were flirting. I kind of felt sorry for her because it was like the poor girl couldn't have a conversation with a member of the opposite sex without it being misconstrued. She found Henry's proposal irritating and embarassing. She didn't like the attention. So when Thornton proposed I got the sense from her that she thought he was making assumptions like Henry had about her behaviour and she reacted harshly. I didn't like a lot of her attitude towards Thornton, she was unfairly hostile to him. She judged him without attempting to get to know him. However a lot of people were judging her as well.

I don't know why I keep defending Margaret because she isn't exactly a very appealing character. She certainly isn't an Elizabeth Bennett or even Gaskell's Molly Gibson, though maybe Margaret doesn't annoy me as much as Emma. Watching N&S I was pleased Thornton and Margaret got together because that is what Thornton wanted and the train station scene was very sweet. However Richard Armitage's John Thornton was far more appealing than Daniela Denby-Ashe's Margaret Hale and not just for the obvious reason that RA is generally appealing. Thornton as a character comes over better in my opinion than Margaret.

[Easter Lily]

Defend away...
It certainly makes for a more interesting discussion...

Margaret Hale isn't my favourite female protagonist for all kinds of reasons... mostly I suspect because of our age gap... and the breadth of life experiences that she's had. With all her pretentions to frankness I find her simplistic and judgemental. That said, I take your point that she has had her fair share of being misconstrued as well.
However, I find her more appealing later on in the story when she realises that the world isn't so cut and dried. Also it seems to me that when she becomes embroiled in a little misinformation of her own, she begins to realise that life is far more complicated than she had previously thought.

Watching N&S I was pleased Thornton and Margaret got together because that is what Thornton wanted and the train station scene was very sweet. However Richard Armitage's John Thornton was far more appealing than Daniela Denby-Ashe's Margaret Hale and not just for the obvious reason that RA is generally appealing. Thornton as a character comes over better in my opinion than Margaret.

On this point I share your sentiments completely... I was happy for him more than I was for her. That he got, as it were, "his heart's desire"... that someone apart from his mother (and maybe, Higgins) appreciated the depth of his person. But it is unusual for me to do this... I usually take the part of the woman. Perhaps this could go some way in explaining why I've found RA's Thornton far more compelling than CF's Darcy. That and the fact that RA's Thornton is a much more interesting character study in suppressed passion and ambiguity.

[Blue Banrigh]

Fifth actually... I think Imo's posted here as well...
The other suitor in question is Henry Lennox..

I wonder where I went wrong with the counting... oh yeah... I forgot to count me.

*Goes back and analyses reactions from the train station scene* You know, you're right. I was in my squeeing fan girl mode more more for Thornton than for Margaret...

[Easter Lily]

Yes... it's an extreme fan girly moment...

Which reminds me of how much I love the closeups on N & S...

[Shep'sSocks]

Defend away...
It certainly makes for a more interesting discussion...

Margaret Hale isn't my favourite female protagonist for all kinds of reasons... mostly I suspect because of our age gap... and the breadth of life experiences that she's had. With all her pretentions to frankness I find her simplistic and judgemental. That said, I take your point that she has had her fair share of being misconstrued as well.
However, I find her more appealing later on in the story when she realises that the world isn't so cut and dried. Also it seems to me that when she becomes embroiled in a little misinformation of her own, she begins to realise that life is far more complicated than she had previously thought.

She's led a somewhat sheltered life so her views have a tendency to be unrealistic at times.

On this point I share your sentiments completely... I was happy for him more than I was for her. That he got, as it were, "his heart's desire"... that someone apart from his mother (and maybe, Higgins) appreciated the depth of his person. But it is unusual for me to do this... I usually take the part of the woman. Perhaps this could go some way in explaining why I've found RA's Thornton far more compelling than CF's Darcy. That and the fact that RA's Thornton is a much more interesting character study in suppressed passion and ambiguity.

I was on Thornton's side from the beginning, even when he was beating up the bloke who was smoking. I get that he was made out to be ambiguous in the first episode but there was just something... I think RA made Thornton a lot more interesting than CF made Darcy.

Hi Esther, welcome to our little corner of Victorian England...

[smallgirl]

I think RA made Thornton a lot more interesting than CF made Darcy.

Hi Esther, welcome to our little corner of Victorian England...

Thanks for the welcome. Yes RA made Thornton more interesting than CF's Darcy. I really love P&P but more for Elizabeth than Darcy. I do like Darcy, I think he has a lot more depth than quite a few of Austen's male characters but Elizabeth is the real focus of the story. With N&S I cared far more about Thornton's story than Margaret's, I was just waiting for her to realise how wrong her prejudices towards him were.

[Shep'sSocks]

Did we watch N&S tonight and see how Aunty butchered it?

Not happy, Jan, for the second time today.

[Immy]

What did the ABC do to it?

Anyway that final ep was amazing. The look on Thornton's face when Miss Hale leaves for London, I just wanted to hug him and take him home

[Easter Lily]

Not sure why the ABC cut out some crucial moments... I thought the show was an hour long anyway?! Well, it's not the first time I'm glad I've got the DVD.

I admit I wasn't very excited about CF's Darcy when the show came out... couldn't for the life of me think what the fuss was all about. He was adequate but didn't have much of an impact on me. I love P&P and frankly speaking, Darcy's shoes are very hard to fill. I suppose my expectations for that role were very high and I didn't feel that his interpretation of Darcy was close to anything that I had previously imagined.

I was on Thornton's side from the beginning, even when he was beating up the bloke who was smoking. I get that he was made out to be ambiguous in the first episode but there was just something... I think RA made Thornton a lot more interesting than CF made Darcy.

I saw the second episode first so I missed the full force of the initial ambiguity. Without the background of the first episode the riot scene seemed rather odd and of course the harshness of the proposal scene was not fully understood. But that was quickly rectified the next day...

It is interesting that we (all four of us ) seem to have adopted Thornton's point of view throughout these events even though the film specifically directs us to look at it through Margaret's eyes. However, an interesting shift occurs in the fourth episode whereby we are directed to look at the circumstances more from Thornton's point of view. Perhaps this is why Episode 4 is my favourite... it is definitely Thornton's hour...

[Shep'sSocks]

They cut out the scene where Dixon comes in to tell Margaret and Mr Hale that Higgins wants to see them and just cut straight to Higgins taking off his boots.

The scene where the shift ends and Thornton looks through the window was cut. It went straight into Thornton going over to young Tom, whereas that was actually a completely different scene.

And worst of all, they cut the scene where Mrs Thornton walks into the office to find him asleep at his desk and she takes off her shawl and puts it around him, then turns down the lamp. That is just an adorable scene.

They're the ones I picked up.

I adore the "Look back at me" scene. :snuffle:

What did you think of the train station scene?

[Easter Lily]

What did the ABC do to it?

When you get the DVD and watch it over and over again you'll notice some severe instances of editing...

Anyway that final ep was amazing. The look on Thornton's face when Miss Hale leaves for London, I just wanted to hug him and take him home

You mean the scene where she goes off in the carriage with the snow blowing in all directions...?
Yeah, it's a personal favourite too... I've examined this scene several times over.. and everytime I go away more impressed with the subtle changes in RA's eye movements to express sadness and loss... very realistic and poignant methinks...
Very huggable...

[Shep'sSocks]

It's when his eyes lose their focus on the carriage and he sort of turns inward. :snuffle:

[Easter Lily]

Yeah... *sniff* I know...