North and South (Novel and BBC Adaptation)

[Shep'sSocks]

Including the one in the alley?
Did he smile at all of them?

He gave her the sweetest little smile. Just after he gave her the coin.

Here is where the power of the printed page outstrips celluloid... I really like Gaskell's description of how Thornton was feeling and all the other stuff he said... But RA and SC did a wonderful job bringing it to life though... No doubt about that...

Everything is there on the page for them. There's nointerpretation of that scene outside of what they did.

I don't think it's a case of not talking about anything of significance but there isn't that same degree of openess... there's a lot of concealment... Everyone seems to have a misguided sense of overprotectiveness... It's as if they have to protect each other from the realities of life.
Life is much harder for the northerners... very brutal, stark... They are more practical about survival and most of them (including, I imagine, the ugly capitalists) have had to work tooth and nail for everything. They don't seem to have much time for fluff. They call a spade, a spade because they don't pretend it's a spoon. The Thorntons have had to deal with the ugly side of life and have come out on the winning side... there's a strong sense of honesty between them because they know that there's no sense in pretending because they have seen life at it's worst.

Yet, Fanny doesn't have that nouse.

This is something Margaret doesn't understand at first... she doesn't realise that some people are actually rich because they work hard.

No, people have money or they don't. People don't earn money. It's a very upper class attitude of the period.

The Hales have always led a much simpler life. They haven't had much go wrong until Fred's exile and enjoy all the basic comforts. Unfortunately when they go to a place like Milton... all their simple equations for life don't seem to fit... and it drives them crazy.

Do you think Mrs Hale just gave up?

I liked it when he told her that the only piece of "luck" was having a good mother... it was a good slap to that self-righteous demeanour...

Oooh, yes. But even then she didn't get it.

[Easter Lily]

Everything is there on the page for them. There's nointerpretation of that scene outside of what they did.

Yet, Fanny doesn't have that nouse.

Perhaps she is much more like the late departed Mr Thornton...

No, people have money or they don't. People don't earn money. It's a very upper class attitude of the period.

I forget. I keep forgetting that these people live in the 19th century... But then it makes Elizabeth Bennet so much the more remarkable.
I remember in our study of pre-/post-Revolution? France that it was common for the aristocratic class to sneer at the bourgeois... many of whom were probably capitalists... for being the newly riche... like it was a cardinal sin to work for your money...

It does make the Chinese system of literary exams seem rather enlightened afterall...

Do you think Mrs Hale just gave up?

Probably... she's certainly isn't the tough nut Battleaxe was...

Oooh, yes. But even then she didn't get it.

I don't think that mattered... I think it was more important that WE get it...

[Shep'sSocks]

Perhaps she is much more like the late departed Mr Thornton...

Late unlamented Mr Thornton. I get the feeling Mrs Thornton's wearing of black is lip service.

I forget. I keep forgetting that these people live in the 19th century... But then it makes Elizabeth Bennet so much the more remarkable.
I remember in our study of pre-/post-Revolution? France that it was common for the aristocratic class to sneer at the bourgeois... many of whom were probably capitalists... for being the newly riche... like it was a cardinal sin to work for your money...

It does make the Chinese system of literary exams seem rather enlightened afterall...

That whole thing is nicely summed up by Aunt Shaw's "Is it someone we should know" and Henry's patronising attitude towards Thornton at the exhibition. JT knew darn well he was being patronised.

Probably... she's certainly isn't the tough nut Battleaxe was...

Do you think Margaret and Battleaxe will ever get along?

I don't think mattered... I think it was more important that WE get it...

We got it rather early on.

[Easter Lily]

That whole thing is nicely summed up by Aunt Shaw's "Is it someone we should know" and Henry's patronising attitude towards Thornton at the exhibition. JT knew darn well he was being patronised.

Sure he did...
Interesting to see Margaret come to his defence... almost liked her for it... Henry's discomfiture was our pleasure...

Do you think Margaret and Battleaxe will ever get along?

Eventually... perhaps... not in the short-term, I don't think. More alike than they probably like to admit to. O'l Maggie will have to work really hard to earn respect from Battleaxe, I think. Do you think that men marry women that remind them of their mothers?

We got it rather early on.

Young Maggie is probably a little slow on the uptake... but it also served to add to our knowledge of the guy.

[Shep'sSocks]

Sure he did...
Interesting to see Margaret come to his defence... almost liked her for it... Henry's discomfiture was our pleasure...

But was Henry really discomforted? I don't think he was. He sort of gave a snotty sneer.

Eventually... perhaps... not in the short-term, I don't think. More alike than they probably like to admit to. O'l Maggie will have to work really hard to earn respect from Battleaxe, I think. Do you think that men marry women that remind them of their mothers?

I'm not married but sometimes, yes. I think he likes strong willed women because of his background so he's automatically attracted to Margaret, but she's different enough from his own mother to also attract.

Young Maggie is probably a little slow on the uptake... but it also served to add to our knowledge of the guy.

Which was rather more important, I think. I still find it fascinating that we understand him better than we understand her.

[Easter Lily]

But was Henry really discomforted? I don't think he was. He sort of gave a snotty sneer.

I thought he looked somewhat... put out... by Margaret's all too quick defence of Thornton's interest in learning.

I'm not married but sometimes, yes. I think he likes strong willed women because of his background so he's automatically attracted to Margaret, but she's different enough from his own mother to also attract.
I still find it fascinating that we understand him better than we understand her.

I sometimes think Margaret is strong-willed for the sake of being strong-willed. Her strong-willness annoys me. She's too ready to spout off homespun wisdom but I'm not convinced. Are they equating strong will with bluntness? They're not synonymous in my book. As you say, I don't understand her as well as I do Thornton. But then I ask myself if I really want to... As a modern female, I appreciate strong female characters but then I wonder sometimes if it isn't done just to pander to some demographic. Frankly speaking I don't relate to Margaret but then I'm an older woman and I've grown up on Lizzy Bennet so it's just plain bias I suppose.
I'm more sympathetic towards Thornton... he's far more interesting because he isn't what he appears to be... and he doesn't pretend to be better than what he is. He is as straight as they come...
And the fact that he's played by the most drop dead gorgeous British actor since Jeremy Northam doesn't even enter into it

[Blue Banrigh]

My this thread has grown...

[Easter Lily]

Only through sheer perseverance... my friend... sheer perseverance...

[Shep'sSocks]

What's interesting is the view to post ratio...

[Shep'sSocks]

I thought he looked somewhat... put out... by Margaret's all too quick defence of Thornton's interest in learning.

Oh yes, absolutely agree but he definitely felt superior. That awful sneer at Thornton's response to "dabbling in cotton". I think Margaret really felt he was being patronised, hence her defence of him, whereas Fanny didn't get it at all.

I sometimes think Margaret is strong-willed for the sake of being strong-willed. Her strong-willness annoys me. She's too ready to spout off homespun wisdom but I'm not convinced. Are they equating strong will with bluntness? They're not synonymous in my book. As you say, I don't understand her as well as I do Thornton. But then I ask myself if I really want to... As a modern female, I appreciate strong female characters but then I wonder sometimes if it isn't done just to pander to some demographic. Frankly speaking I don't relate to Margaret but then I'm an older woman and I've grown up on Lizzy Bennet so it's just plain bias I suppose.

I absolutely agree with this, though I have to admit that sometimes Lizzy annoys me. I think the thing with Margaret is that sometimes she's a bit of a cypher. We know what motivates Thornton but she's a puzzle at times. Is she more or less of a cypher in the book?

I'm more sympathetic towards Thornton... he's far more interesting because he isn't what he appears to be... and he doesn't pretend to be better than what he is. He is as straight as they come...

Straight as a die (except that saying is to do with metal manufacturing rather than cotton but you get my drift). I rewatched episode three last night and that heartbreaking "I knew I wasn't good enough for her" was ... well ... heartbreaking.

And the fact that he's played by the most drop dead gorgeous British actor since Jeremy Northam doesn't even enter into it

I adore Jeremy Northam. Sincerely hope my student remembers I want to borrow her DVD copy of The Winslow Boy. Utterly drop dead gorgeous. Both of 'em! Although I think RA can play vulnerable better.

[Easter Lily]

I absolutely agree with this, though I have to admit that sometimes Lizzy annoys me. I think the thing with Margaret is that sometimes she's a bit of a cypher. We know what motivates Thornton but she's a puzzle at times. Is she more or less of a cypher in the book?

I don't think she's a mystery as such... I just don't relate to her kind of femaleness... in the way that I don't relate to Samantha Carter... Margaret may be a spirited woman but she irritates me... at least early on in the story...

Straight as a die (except that saying is to do with metal manufacturing rather than cotton but you get my drift). I rewatched episode three last night and that heartbreaking "I knew I wasn't good enough for her" was ... well ... heartbreaking.

It's even more heartbreaking in the book because you have access to his "inner most thoughts"... it's much clearer that he's fallen really hard...

I adore Jeremy Northam. Sincerely hope my student remembers I want to borrow her DVD copy of The Winslow Boy. Utterly drop dead gorgeous. Both of 'em! Although I think RA can play vulnerable better.

I've seen Jeremy do some amazing things... he doesn't brood as much... but his performace in Cypher is fascinating... He really does make it work... He and Jennifer Ehle are very good in Possession... the only redeeming aspect to the adaptation IMO...

What's interesting is the view to post ratio...

It surprises me that people are interested in reading our dialogue without jumping in... wonder if it's the same individuals or whether it encompasses a whole range of casual lurkers.

[Shep'sSocks]

I don't think she's a mystery as such... I just don't relate to her kind of femaleness... in the way that I don't relate to Samantha Carter... Margaret may be a spirited woman but she irritates me... at least early on in the story...

Not a mystery, but her motivations seem at odds with her at times. I want to beat up Samantha Carter a lot more than Margaret Hale, though. Margaret I just want to shake and yell "Wake up to yourself!"

It's even more heartbreaking in the book because you have access to his "inner most thoughts"... it's much clearer that he's fallen really hard...

Oh, it's beautiful in the book. I haven't got much past that scene because I keep going back to it.

I've seen Jeremy do some amazing things... he doesn't brood as much... but his performace in Cypher is fascinating... He really does make it work... He and Jennifer Ehle are very good in Possession... the only redeeming aspect to the adaptation IMO...

I might just have to have a Jeremy Northam fest. Actually, why don't we do that? And then discuss, of course.

It surprises me that people are interested in reading our dialogue without jumping in... wonder if it's the same individuals or whether it encompasses a whole range of casual lurkers.

Yes, whoever you are, join in! We don't bite, we thunk, sometimes we're even intelligent. Sort of.

[Easter Lily]

Not a mystery, but her motivations seem at odds with her at times. I want to beat up Samantha Carter a lot more than Margaret Hale, though. Margaret I just want to shake and yell "Wake up to yourself!"

There's an element of that in my response too... but she finally wakes up to herself... so all is forgiven... What Thornton sees in her initially is somewhat more baffling...

Oh, it's beautiful in the book. I haven't got much past that scene because I keep going back to it.

Gives me the goosebumps actually... the heart races... lots of sighs...

I might just have to have a Jeremy Northam fest. Actually, why don't we do that? And then discuss, of course.

I've seen quite a few of his films already... I have The Net even (that's where I discovered this delicious man... film drags in parts but Jeremy is diabolically dashing. Happy, Texas is very over the top... some parts are fun... Cypher is great... Emma... wonderful... Enigma is very good... Winslow Boy is my favourite... An Ideal Husband (Rupert Everett's movie really) okay... Possession... okay... and Gosford Park...
But we should start another thread... when you're ready...

Yes, whoever you are, join in! We don't bite, we thunk, sometimes we're even intelligent. Sort of.

When we're not wallowing in the gutter...

Do you think we're the longest running dialogue in Gateworld?

[Easter Lily]

So why do you think Thornton went ahead and proposed even if he was somewhat convinced that Margaret didn't think much of him?

I suppose he wanted to get it out of his system and on the off-chance that she might not feel too badly about him.

That dinner party scene where they shake hands and he oh so didn't want to let go... I'm sure he wanted to knock Slickson's bocco off... because I wanted to. Those lingering looks tinged with impatience and regret... *sighs*

[smallgirl]

It's a shame that they had to shorten the proposal scene... the extended scene actually makes so much more sense.
My colleague was saying to me yesterday that she thought that Margaret annoyed her and she referred specfically to the proposal scene... that she seemed incapable of refusing decently. I have wondered why Margaret was so harsh in her rejection of Thornton. At the dinner party she was giving him long looks and for a few seconds, it even looked like she was flirting with him. And then she throws him over rather ungraciously... OK... she doesn't exactly throw him over... but you know what I mean... She was giving him a whole lot of mixed messages...

I suppose she is both attracted to and repulsed by him.

I think she may be repulsed by the fact that she is attracted to him. She doesn't want to admit it.

I watched the whole of the BBC adaptation of N&S but my mother only caught a bit of it, which included that proposal scene and she came away with a very harsh opinion of Margaret. She thought she was very rude to Thornton. I actually attempted to defend Margaret because having watched all the previous scenes between the two of them, I felt that there was some justification to how Margaret reacted to his proposal. Considering the bad start they both got off to and several subsequent scenes where they were at odds with one another it must have seemed strange to Margaret for Thornton to then propose to her. She initially misunderstood why he proposed because she saw it coming from the same place that Thornton's mother did, the interpretation that the reason she 'saved' him from the mob was because she had feelings towards him. She was quick to dismiss this version of events and yes she was harsh in the way she did it. However Thornton was over sensitive because his mother had been responsible for putting the idea into his mind and now he felt stupid for believing it. These were two people who up til then seemed to disagree about everything and even appeared to not like each other so it must have seemed very strange to Margaret for him to declare his love for her. Yes, at the dinner party they had come to an understanding and seemed to be getting on better and Margaret was much warmer towards him but they still had a disagreement there also and to go from disliking someone to being a bit more friendly to then a marriage proposal is quite a leap. At that stage of the story she still had quite a bit of prejudice towards Thornton and a limited understanding of what kind of man he was and so she didn't understand the genuine place that the proposal was coming from. I've bought the book since watching the TV version but haven't read it all yet and I still find it a bit strange that Thornton proposed when he did. I can't quite see why he was in love with her at that stage of the story. So I guess I understand Margaret's confusion. She was rude in her rejection but he didn't exactly handle the proposal well himself. It played out to me as a scene of mis-communication.