So either the crew is consisted of idiots or they are willfully ignorant

[natyanayaki]

why would anyone want to challenge his story after that? Much easier, and smarter, to play dumb for the moment

That's a very good point, I hadn't thought of the speech/that moment in quite that manner, but I think that's highly possible. I do wonder though, how loyalties will change when Rush returns and as the "new" Young is established. I wonder if perhaps this move, whether right or wrong, was a thresh-hold Young needed to cross to be able to command the ship efficiently, to be able to make tough choices. Though I don't know if this is necessarily one of the essential tough choices, was it a trigger of some sort?

[Saquist]

Yes it must hurt you when someone comes up with an argument that cripples your own. I’m sure your tactic of just ignoring it instead will work. And how is my point that said tension will simmer over several episodes due to SGU being an arc based show rather than occurring immediately not relevant the discussion?

If you want to discuss relevancy then you should excise the irrelevant and bias from your post so you can be more clear and understood. I suggest giving it another try.

Please, don't try and make out that people demanding instant resolution to every issue that crops up or else they claim it's some sort of plot hole or bad writing are somehow more "critical" viewers than other people.

This isn't about instant resolution
This isn't about every issue.
This is about a severe lack of story that among many other things....including reality also lacks resolution resolution. (soap opera style)

The story in SGU is one season long arc, until the season has ended nothing is complete and anyone with half a clue would grasp that plot points raised in one episode may not necessarily be resolved until several episodes further down the line. This does not make the episode the plot points were raised in incomplete, or open a plot hole, or demonstrate bad writing.

I know you and others buy that explanation of a season long arc, for the lack of story but I don't. I know you look at the Kino Interviews and think..."OH 5minutes of random character development...how delightful"

I know many saw the psychological evals and thought. "That's NEW and Interesting!"

One Person of the episode "Water" said..."Finally some action", shooting suspended dust particles...Right.

I know some people really get a kick out of watching 15 minutes of random, non plot related Earth Stone Issues an episode.

I'm none of those things. I require my stories to have focus. Develop Characters as a part of interaction among one another. I require actual development not dissertation. Character Plots not meanderings. Each of the characters on SGU are essentially in their own universe and it's dry and non interactive. A very very poor story telling method.

Uhh... no. Fans are generally smart, and they can swing either way (Towards acceptance or the unyielding need to be right about their little nitpicks about a show), and they all do not accept everything without question. So no - stop the generalising.

Smart does not preclude the fanatical and unreasoning devotion that follows fandom.

Again, I'll say that fans are generally smart, so they may actually look at a show like SGU and get that it's an arc show, where things aren't resolved in the same episode, and those unsolved things may come up again - it's how SGU's story is told. Instead of blindly accepting that every character is ignorant of Young's story, I, as one of the fans, am thinking about how it comes into play later, and if people are choosing to be ignorant or not.

The episodes of SGU that aren't really the problem. The real problem is freshness in the stories. Viewers won't be able to tune in on a particular episode without knowing what has happend two season ago. Lost has this problem. Heroes avoided it but it has lost the freshness by using the same old story that SGU is already adopting right out the gate. Lingering problems.

what show doesn't contrive for drama?

All the good ones and then some.
But no one does it for long.
Airwolf is one of my favorite shows. The first season was excellent and realistic in startling detail describing how the chopper disengaged it's rotors to achieve Mac Speeds.

But the writing got Lazy...they catered to corporate sponsorship and made the following seasons less on the espionage and covert and more on the hokey wild west and mundane.

SGA was very well founded in the First Season and it quickly dilapidated into the Lazy Writing FUNK that stayed around for 2 more season and reapeared for the Fifth.

Babylon 5 held out longer than any other series I'd ever seen before loosing it in the 4th and 5th season. Amazingly that's because of one person being over the writing.

What's crazy is more cartoons have been more honest in it's drama than TV shows. Gargoyles. The Original X-Men Cartoon. Naruto.

No the producers aren't really looking for quality their looking for viewers but despite what you might believe, ma'am, people don't naturally look for intelligent entertainment...that's why Power Rangers is still going strong. 17 Season and 15 different Series.

[Lightning Ducj]

Ironic that Young ended up eliminating Rush for exactly the reason that Rush was hinting that Young eliminated Spencer...he'd become a threat

[FallenAngelII]

Apparently the part I didn't get was how it would be relevant to do that. Do you just assume that most people know which of your "sub-categories" they fall into? How do we discuss what "shippers" like when we don't know who defines that sub-group? DO most people know which group they fall into? This is the only forum I'm a member of where people bicker constantly. I'm new to this.

Bottom line though, "shipper" or "fanatic" or "critic"; don't we all like Star Gate in some way, shape, or form? Doesn't that essentially make us all "fans"?

Why do we have to discuss specific users by referring to their subgroup instead of just addressing them directly? If you want to call forum members 1562 a fanatic, please do so (it would be against he rules, though).

Also, "Shipper" is one of the most easily definable subgroups.

Bottom line though, "shipper" or "fanatic" or "critic"; don't we all like Star Gate in some way, shape, or form? Doesn't that essentially make us all "fans"?

There was this idiotic debate going on where someone said "A fan is like this!" and another person said "No, they're like this!" and all it boiled down to was the fact that the two people were discussing two different subgroups.

Let's take a step back and look at the circumstances. remember that young was just exonerated for being charged with murder. as a result, the essential crew (ie, cast members) know that someone on board had the audacity to do it. And when young came back alone, without rush, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who it was, and what the punishment.

And everyone was just OK with Young committing murder in retaliation for getting framed?

Yes, he told one hell of a flimsy story about a rockslide, but that was the point. More important than the story, was the way he talked about it. His speech was cold, calculated, and emotionless. As he looked around Scott, Eli, and whoever else was there in the gateroom, you could easily sense that Young wasn't looking for their approval or sympathy. To me, it was almost like him giving an order, "Rush is no longer with us". Young is sending a message, you mess with me, and you will get left behind.

now, why would anyone want to challenge his story after that? Much easier, and smarter, to play dumb for the moment

Or they could just stage a coup and get him out of command again as he's just proven himself to be unfit for command.

[creed462]

Rush was a destructive element. The crew knows he risked one of the scientist life just to use the chair. I don't condone what Young did, but Rush was undermining the crew, with false hope(nagudra (sp) planet), possible killed one of them (manipulated the crew man to sit in the chair), and what hasn't come out about the framing (though I'm sure they suspect.) Rush is a very rouge element that only helps when their goals are the same. Everyone on the crew realizes this, so I think they are being willfully ignorant.

[Daro]

Of course there was evidence of a rock slide....we saw it. It's just that the rock 'slid' from Rush's hand into Young's face!

Seriously, though, I agree with those who think that people, at that point at the end of the show, were probably too afraid to call shenanigans. I have no doubt that Eli knows what happened. As for the rest of them? Well, Rush said it best when describing why someone would want Spencer dead: He had no friends, no one even liked him, and he pissed people off.
Even with that, Rush was a sort of central figure to the mission. People might hate him for getting them stuck there to start with, but he's pulled their asses out of the fire more than once since (his too, of course. But that's natural.)
If things start going wrong on the ship, things that the crew is used to having Rush fix (all while Young is yelling at him or accusing him of some diabolical hidden motive) won't get fixed so easy. Eli may be Math boy, but a dropout with great skills, even if he was in MIT, can't replace the world's best expert on Ancient culture and technology. When the crap hits the fan, they'll wish they had Rush, and people who suspect Young of stranding Rush on purpose are going to start mumbling to others, and a rebellion might arise.
If that happens, I imagine the military people will have to make a choice, and Young will either have to fess up and step aside or crack down.
It may be that when Rush returns, this is playing out, and Young will need Rush to reappear and lie about what happened as well. In exchange, an understanding might be reached between them. Enemies, always. But a temporary truce until the proper time arises.

[AdamTM]

Damn Saquist, i cant give you more green, stop being reasonable!

I demand it!

[Blackhole]

Of course there was evidence of a rock slide....we saw it. It's just that the rock 'slid' from Rush's hand into Young's face!

Seriously, though, I agree with those who think that people, at that point at the end of the show, were probably too afraid to call shenanigans. I have no doubt that Eli knows what happened. As for the rest of them? Well, Rush said it best when describing why someone would want Spencer dead: He had no friends, no one even liked him, and he pissed people off.
Even with that, Rush was a sort of central figure to the mission. People might hate him for getting them stuck there to start with, but he's pulled their asses out of the fire more than once since (his too, of course. But that's natural.)
If things start going wrong on the ship, things that the crew is used to having Rush fix (all while Young is yelling at him or accusing him of some diabolical hidden motive) won't get fixed so easy. Eli may be Math boy, but a dropout with great skills, even if he was in MIT, can't replace the world's best expert on Ancient culture and technology. When the crap hits the fan, they'll wish they had Rush, and people who suspect Young of stranding Rush on purpose are going to start mumbling to others, and a rebellion might arise.
If that happens, I imagine the military people will have to make a choice, and Young will either have to fess up and step aside or crack down.
It may be that when Rush returns, this is playing out, and Young will need Rush to reappear and lie about what happened as well. In exchange, an understanding might be reached between them. Enemies, always. But a temporary truce until the proper time arises.

No one knows for sure what happened but they may certainly suspect that Young left him. Rush is the leading character of the show. I would be surprised if doesn't make it back to the Destiny very quickly, maybe even the next episode. They could show him doing what he needs to do to get back for a couple of episodes but I bet he will return by the next or the one after the latest. Maybe stranding Rush will be the best thing Young could do to keep everybody in line. It will be interesting if Rush comes back determined to get even with Young or willing to be far more cooperative. Rush would be a fool to openly antagonize him; he would find himself quickly exiled again.

[Daro]

No one knows for sure what happened but they may certainly suspect that Young left him. Rush is the leading character of the show. I would be surprised if doesn't make it back to the Destiny very quickly, maybe even the next episode. They could show him doing what he needs to do to get back for a couple of episodes but I bet he will return by the next or the one after the latest. Maybe stranding Rush will be the best thing Young could do to keep everybody in line. It will be interesting if Rush comes back determined to get even with Young or willing to be far more cooperative. Rush would be a fool to openly antagonize him; he would find himself quickly exiled again.

I still think Eli 'knows.' He didn't see it. But he saw the footage, he knows that only he and Young know about what Rush did. Two men went through the gate, one came back with a lame excuse. Then he asked for the evidence of Rush's actions to be copied to his zip drive and then deleted elsewhere. The look, the hesitation, the play-it-cool tone that Eli uses tells the story, as far as I can interpret. He knows.

Rush would be a fool to openly antagonize Young again. Unless, of course, he acquired some powerful friends or technology while he's on his little vacation.
And there's also this to equalize him and Young: They both have something on the other that would entirely discredit them. Indeed, one can't reveal what he knows about the other without that happening. Neither men want to see the crew fall apart for lack of leadership.

Also, I don't think Rush quite grasped what he was dealing with when it came to Young. He thought of him as a paper tiger, all bark and no bite. Even when Young kicked his ass, I don't think it crossed Rush's mind that he was going to be left 'to die.' Now he knows, both have a death wish for the other at this point, I think. But if the game can't be done in the open, if it must be played by manipulating, espionage, etc, Young needs to smarten up and Rush needs to make some friends.

[Luzia]

I got the impression that Young didn't expect everyone to believe him, but he expected them to accept it due to his rank. If he was even slightly upset about losing Rush, even for selfish reasons, he would not have gone striding through the room without pause and would have delivered the news in a different fashion.

And the gate closed so quickly behind him -- I keep wondering why no one was standing there with their arm in the stream to keep it open, anyway? (Have I misunderstood something: I thought they already established that they could keep it open longer just by doing that.) Young almost missed the ship himself, and no one had time to digest what he said and insist on going back to see if Rush was really dead. They have no choice but to take his word for it and he delivers the news as if he knows that and expects the subject to be dropped.

BTW, I was under the impression that the other two scientists were not sure about leaving Rush and Young alone. When I watched the show the second time, I noticed they asked Rush, "Are you sure?" when he told them to go ahead and return through the gate. One of them glanced from Young to Rush as he said it, although I suppose he could have been asking both of them...

[Saquist]

I've noticed that shows will do things like this with the characters behavior just to be brazen...film wise...but it might change on the other side.

[Aewon]

Atlantis was built at their peak, as it has been referred to as their crown jewel.

You're mixing up Atlantis and Vis Urban. Though Atlantis was built before the Plague, it's highly unlikely it was anything more than an unimportant research station. I doubt the early Lantians would have survived the Plague if it had been anything more than that.

[Control_Chair]

If things start going wrong on the ship, things that the crew is used to having Rush fix (all while Young is yelling at him or accusing him of some diabolical hidden motive) won't get fixed so easy. Eli may be Math boy, but a dropout with great skills, even if he was in MIT, can't replace the world's best expert on Ancient culture and technology.

That is pushing Rush's abilities quite a lot, yes he is good but he is nowhere near as knowledgeable as Daniel Jackson is on the Ancients Culture or even half as good with Ancient tech as McKay or Carter. Maybe this could be the excuse needed to use the stones to bring them aboard so we can actually figure something out about the ship other than this vague nonsense.

[Avenger]

You're probably right about Jackson and the culture aspect. However, to say that he is not as knowledgeable as McKay or Carter is speculation at this point because he has been limited by a lack of access to the Ancient systems on the ship.

[Daro]

That is pushing Rush's abilities quite a lot, yes he is good but he is nowhere near as knowledgeable as Daniel Jackson is on the Ancients Culture or even half as good with Ancient tech as McKay or Carter. Maybe this could be the excuse needed to use the stones to bring them aboard so we can actually figure something out about the ship other than this vague nonsense.

The stones are only to be used for beating up rivals and having sex using other folks' bodies. There'll be none of this logical 'let's bring in someone who can help us.' crap!

Forgive me, you are likely correct in saying Daniel is the expert.

I'm ashamed to say I'm very new to Stargate. I watched the movie, but haven't seen the other series. I plan on buying the boxed set for season 1 of each this weekend.

As for Rush's expertise, I have to believe that O'Neill wouldn't have Rush on the project as the lead scientist to start with if he wasn't near the top of the list.