Pro-civilian bias?

[Coronach]

When someone has the ability to control what people are doing by simply citing safety and security, they are in charge.

This may be the case, but it's not the sort of "in-charge" I'm talking about. When Young has Eli (a civilian) working around the clock, and dictates the everyday life of the civilians even in a situation lacking danger, then I think there's a problem.

I've never argued that Young (or someone more military-minded) shouldn't be in charge when it comes to emergency military situations (i.e. aliens boarding the ship, Rush is about to blow up the planet, etc..). Someone more skilled in tactics and combat situations should of course be the go-to person, just like Young should take into account the scientists expertise when it comes to where to divert power when aliens are attacking (e.g. shields or weapons). Luckily, he listened to Eli when he said Rush was right.

That means nothing. Looking back at the SGC example a vast majority of the scientist theire were civilians (Yes I know Carter which is why I said majority) and it was still run by the military

This is true, but that military still took orders from civilians (i.e. the IOA, the president). It is true that the president (apparently) backs Young as the one in charge, but the situation aboard Destiny and that of the SGC and Icarus Base are nearly incomparable. For example, any civilian could opt out of either of the latter situations, but they are completely stuck in the former.

[wargrafix]

They need to set up a government, or at least a structure where civilians have rights. Honestly I would have been a part of an uprising had it happened in real life.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Just like in real life, military is a mess. I've had to work with airforce and they can be quite arrogant and stupid.

The civilian side is always the voice of reason. The fact that guns were drawn against civilians in this episode shows that the military is forcing control. Greer is an idiot and I hope they phase him out soon.

Yup with that attitude no wonder no one in the military got on with you.

[jelgate]

This may be the case, but it's not the sort of "in-charge" I'm talking about. When Young has Eli (a civilian) working around the clock, and dictates the everyday life of the civilians even in a situation lacking danger, then I think there's a problem.

I've never argued that Young (or someone more military-minded) shouldn't be in charge when it comes to emergency military situations (i.e. aliens boarding the ship, Rush is about to blow up the planet, etc..). Someone more skilled in tactics and combat situations should of course be the go-to person, just like Young should take into account the scientists expertise when it comes to where to divert power when aliens are attacking (e.g. shields or weapons). Luckily, he listened to Eli when he said Rush was right.



This is true, but that military still took orders from civilians (i.e. the IOA, the president). It is true that the president (apparently) backs Young as the one in charge, but the situation aboard Destiny and that of the SGC and Icarus Base are nearly incomparable. For example, any civilian could opt out of either of the latter situations, but they are completely stuck in the former.

Civilian contracts usually point out the threat of attack under military employment. I hardly think they say you stop obeying when said military is attacked. The same rules and the president's orders stand

[Lord Hurin]

They need to set up a government, or at least a structure where civilians have rights. Honestly I would have been a part of an uprising had it happened in real life.

Ok, suggestions then? I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason, but "teh millitery suxx cuz I sayd so!" isn't such.

[Coronach]

Civilian contracts usually point out the threat of attack under military employment. I hardly think they say you stop obeying when said military is attacked. The same rules and the president's orders stand

So, I don't disagree with you and I'm not sure I really know what you're responding to in my post, but I'll say this (as hopefully a proper response):

The real test of who ought to obey whom and when will come in next week's episode. As we know:

Spoiler:

It seems a bunch of the civilians end up really liking the planet they're on and want to stay. It'll be interesting if people still think Young has the right to command them back aboard the ship, and it'll be even more interesting to see how Young reacts to such a situation.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

They need to set up a government, or at least a structure where civilians have rights. Honestly I would have been a part of an uprising had it happened in real life.

A government with 80 people? That would get silly fast. Not to mention within any democracy their is still a dictatorial element, presidents and prime ministers of democracies are empowered to make snap decisions in emergency situations without consultation. Whoever you stick in charge of the Destiny is going to have to make snap decisions and will not be able to form committees to make every decision.

[Coronach]

A government with 80 people? That would get silly fast. Not to mention within any democracy their is still a dictatorial element, presidents and prime ministers of democracies are empowered to make snap decisions in emergency situations without consultation. Whoever you stick in charge of the Destiny is going to have to make snap decisions and will not be able to form committees to make every decision.

I totally agree!! This is the point I wanted to make, but I'm glad you brought it up first. Democratic governments of today are a good analogy to look at.

Young (or some designated leader of some sort) should have the power to make snap decisions in emergency situations. However, I think this power should not extend too far out of this (at least for the civilians aboard). Additionally (as with democratic governments), the people should have the ability to vote the person in charge out if they do not agree with their leadership.

[jelgate]

So, I don't disagree with you and I'm not sure I really know what you're responding to in my post, but I'll say this (as hopefully a proper response):

The real test of who ought to obey whom and when will come in next week's episode. As we know:

Spoiler:

It seems a bunch of the civilians end up really liking the planet they're on and want to stay. It'll be interesting if people still think Young has the right to command them back aboard the ship, and it'll be even more interesting to see how Young reacts to such a situation.

Because I though we were debating

[andr3w_iii]

I like this ep it was good, The way the civilians went about it was wrong, Military responds to threats like they did, ah and the commanding officer at Icarus base was colonel Young so it was under military control, Camille was nothing more than the HR person of the base. what I think all u pro civs want is more like SGA where a civ was in charge. hey though u all wanted something different in SGU, I like the conflict and chloe been a part that was not expected, Eli has to be the only neutral character in the show.
This is just my point of view

[Coronach]

Because I though we were debating

Debating what, though? I didn't disagree that the civilians might have signed away some rights for particular military situations. Or if I did, I didn't mean to make it seem that way. I've been trying to make it obvious that I'm not anti-military, and don't necessarily disagree with certain aspects of martial law.

[Kaiphantom]

Martial law is only supposed to be temporary, and only in the face of a grave threat that can't be handled without it. Military dictatorships have mostly all been bad throughout history, and there is a very good reason why that is. As a student of history, I agree with the founding father of the US, who deliberately put the military under the control of a civil authority; namely, the President. Only Congress(a civilian body) can declare war or authorize use of military force. And the President(another civilian) is the commander-in-chief, and gives the direct orders once authority for action has been given from Congress.

There's a very good reason why this is. If you need proof, consider that the most advanced and peaceful nations on this Earth, have the military under civil control. Military dictatorships don't work out too well.

That said, this was also as much about personality clashes. But I do agree that Young needs to learn to subject himself to civil control on the ship (Earth doesn't count). In an emergency, sure, he can take actions. But there should be some civilian authority on the ship that runs things.

[Nemises]

A government with 80 people? That would get silly fast. Not to mention within any democracy their is still a dictatorial element, presidents and prime ministers of democracies are empowered to make snap decisions in emergency situations without consultation. Whoever you stick in charge of the Destiny is going to have to make snap decisions and will not be able to form committees to make every decision.

Yet it is BETTER than a military dictatorship.

[jelgate]

Yet it is BETTER than a military dictatorship.

I don't see how a dictatorship under civilians is any better. In fact its quite the same

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Martial law is only supposed to be temporary, and only in the face of a grave threat that can't be handled without it. Military dictatorships have mostly all been bad throughout history, and there is a very good reason why that is. As a student of history, I agree with the founding father of the US, who deliberately put the military under the control of a civil authority; namely, the President. Only Congress(a civilian body) can declare war or authorize use of military force. And the President(another civilian) is the commander-in-chief, and gives the direct orders once authority for action has been given from Congress.

There's a very good reason why this is. If you need proof, consider that the most advanced and peaceful nations on this Earth, have the military under civil control. Military dictatorships don't work out too well.

That said, this was also as much about personality clashes. But I do agree that Young needs to learn to subject himself to civil control on the ship (Earth doesn't count). In an emergency, sure, he can take actions. But there should be some civilian authority on the ship that runs things.

Let's use an example here, if we replace Destiny with a base in Afghanistan and 60 or so civilian contractors have to take shelter there, does the base suddenly fall under civilian control? No it remains under military command. Civilian leader with regards to the military make policy, but the military makes the orders to carry out said policy.