Pro-civilian bias?

[s09119]

Yes, but how is this any different than their previous post, Icarus base? Or possibly their post before that, the SGC or Area 51?

These scientists are a part of the Stargate Program. They fall under the command of various military personnel of escalating ranks up to General O'Niell. Why is it now that they're suddenly chafing under the military rule?

Because life on Icarus Base wasn't "military rule," it was just normality. This is a bit of a different situation, and whereas the military was just there to be their bosses and protectors at Icarus, they're the overlords here. Living on a ship ruled by force is markedly different than living on a base under guard.

[Lord Hurin]

Because life on Icarus Base wasn't "military rule," it was just normality. This is a bit of a different situation, and whereas the military was just there to be their bosses and protectors at Icarus, they're the overlords here. Living on a ship ruled by force is markedly different than living on a base under guard.

"Ruled by force"? When have the civilians ever had force used against them, apart from in this episode? The military were in command at Icarus and they're in command on Destiny until told otherwise by someone with the authority to do so. The civilians seemed to have gone from wondering what the status of getting home was to openly rejecting the military authority. There's no reason for it that I can see.

[jelgate]

Yeah I've noticed. Didn't really care too much. Divisions are the way of GW

I know people might think I'm military bias but both sides were in the wrong in the Divided episode IMO.

[Commander Zelix]

Frankly, I didn't feel the episode had much to do with the civilian vs military but mostly about personality. There was nothing intellectually stimulating on that front. It was either be on Rush/Wray side or Young side. The main point of the civilians seem to be that Young possibly left Rush to die on the planet. Only one dialog is about that when Wray talks about how a civilian authority is always behind the military authority (which is still the case since the ultimate authority is still back on earth).

[s09119]

"Ruled by force"? When have the civilians ever had force used against them, apart from in this episode? The military were in command at Icarus and they're in command on Destiny until told otherwise by someone with the authority to do so. The civilians seemed to have gone from wondering what the status of getting home was to openly rejecting the military authority. There's no reason for it that I can see.

They have no say in anything and are subject to the authority of people with weapons who have shown they're not afraid to use them, that's what "rule by force" means. They don't need to be getting shot up to make it true.

[Lord Hurin]

They have no say in anything and are subject to the authority of people with weapons who have shown they're not afraid to use them, that's what "rule by force" means. They don't need to be getting shot up to make it true.

Did they have a say in anything on Icarus or at the SGC? Depends, really. They would've been under the authority of Colonel Young or General Landry, respectively. I still can't grasp what the point of contention is. The civilians and military have been treated the same. They're both subject to food rationing. They're both subject to water rationing. They're both subject to room-by-room searches when necessary. Most of all, these civilians are USED to falling under military command, so why the resentment since day one?!

[jelgate]

They have no say in anything and are subject to the authority of people with weapons who have shown they're not afraid to use them, that's what "rule by force" means. They don't need to be getting shot up to make it true.

They kind of agreed to that when they signed their nondisclosure agreement

[s09119]

Did they have a say in anything on Icarus or at the SGC? Depends, really. They would've been under the authority of Colonel Young or General Landry, respectively. I still can't grasp what the point of contention is. The civilians and military have been treated the same. They're both subject to food rationing. They're both subject to water rationing. They're both subject to room-by-room searches when necessary. Most of all, these civilians are USED to falling under military command, so why the resentment since day one?!

Icarus and the SGC were very different scenarios. They had the possibility of going home, there was always a link to Earth, there were plenty of supplies, it was safe, etc. Here, the civilians see things differently. If they're going to be stuck here for the rest of their lives, why should they have to live under the dictatorship of the military? And the people back on Earth are useless and have no idea what they're going through. I'd want a civilian government, too.

[Lord Hurin]

Icarus and the SGC were very different scenarios. They had the possibility of going home, there was always a link to Earth, there were plenty of supplies, it was safe, etc. Here, the civilians see things differently. If they're going to be stuck here for the rest of their lives, why should they have to live under the dictatorship of the military? And the people back on Earth are useless and have no idea what they're going through. I'd want a civilian government, too.

And their first attempt to get one set up is what? A nice round-table discussion? A conference? No, it's a hostile takeover of the majority of the ship and a blackmail attempt. These are intelligent people, why do something so dumb. Don't say "oh, Young wouldn't listen" because you'd be absolutely right; since they didn't bring it up before now, he'd have NOTHING to listen to!

[Jper]

Sorry, I'm not talking about a bias one way or the other on the writers' parts but on the part of the people of this forum. I've seen several posts admonishing the military for acting like barbarians when really no one was in the right.

Yeah, but you will always have this. People disagreeing and having a different opinion/view is normal.

Pointing guns, hitting people, etc. scares people and makes them overreact, which leads to reactions like that.

I'm just trying to figure out why guys like Brody and Volker (especially Brody, who has had a fair amount of respect from all camps) would get on board with a mutiny so quickly and willingly. Surely they didn't have plans of mutiny at Icarus base?

I think it's simply because of the forced rule Young has over the crew. It's not like home, Icarus, the SGC or Earth in general.

Young's inability to listen or be diplomatic, and strange behavior from time to time, while the rest of the military personnel stays loyal to him and follows him - all this led to the divide. Young's actions and behavior are for a great deal responsible for the divided. Combine that with the power-hungry, eloquent character of Wray and the character of Rush and you have the perfect situation for a mutiny like this. Wray's eloquent, not scared of the military, including Young, and has a great deal of authority. I can easily see how Brody and Volker, due to all that has happened, would choose the side they did.

Good post. I'd like to add that the ep refrained from showing a good side and a bad side, the point was for the viewer to make up their own mind, be it they support the military, civilians or neither and think they should work together.

Yeah, it didn't show a good or bad side, which was the right way to go. I agree, it was up to us to make up our own mind. However, I hope the ultimate goal of the episode was to show how weaknesses of the one side, are the strong points of the other and vice versa. I do hope TPTB intended to show in the end that working together was the ultimate solution, even if the characters on-board don't realize it yet, or even want to do it.

Yes, but I think Young is regretful not only for having lost the respect of others, but also for allowing himself to become a man he can't respect himself.

I agree, he's regretful, but I still think it's too late for that. Surely he has experience with being a leader as a Colonel. He should never have done it in the first place and he should accept the consequences. IMHO, he's no longer fit to lead, and he's not fitting the position anymore either. It's not a diplomatic move to let him stay the leader, imho.

I think that Young doesn't believe Rush anymore because he is the one that disobey the order to dial home ... and that bring them to the destiny

Yeah, but Young didn't order him to dial home. He just did, by ordering another civilian to do it, without consulting or considering Rush. Rush, after all isn't the leader, Young is, and he showed that he isn't fit for the position for the first time there. It's not that I cannot let that slide, or that I don't understand his motives, but his continued short-shighted-ness is a very big problem.

God, I hope so. This show is very different to the other Stargate series and I like and respect that. The comraderie is just about the only element from previous shows that I dearly miss.

Yeah, but I've always found the immediate comradeship in stargate to be unrealistic. Sure it's nice to watch, but not the real world. I find it nice how the show actual realistic development for the alliances being build, and a development towards friendship, and not the over-stereotypical, black-white behavior of before. Also, I find it nice, next to grayish zones, that are also serious conflicts between characters, and not just the overall big-bad or enemy, with everyone against that. It was always one side, heroes, the characters we follow from episode to episode, over-perfect and unrealistic, with on the other side, the gruesome enemy or a dick like Senator Kingsey.

"Ruled by force"? When have the civilians ever had force used against them, apart from in this episode? The military were in command at Icarus and they're in command on Destiny until told otherwise by someone with the authority to do so. The civilians seemed to have gone from wondering what the status of getting home was to openly rejecting the military authority. There's no reason for it that I can see.

They use force all the time to establish their leadership. Greer shot Franklin. Young picked a physical fight with Rush. Greer always pull his gun to threat people. Etc. They might be right or they might not be, but they do use force.

[Jper]

They kind of agreed to that when they signed their nondisclosure agreement

Yeah, but they signed up to be working on Icarus base, not to be stuck on Destiny.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jper,

I think the example of Greer shooting Franklin is a bit unfair as Greer shot Franklin after Rush told him to shoot Franklin.

[Replicator Todd]

To be honest, I'm biased towards the civilians because I simply don't like the military too much in real life. But Young IMO isn't exactly a very good leader, of course this emphasizes these are the wrong people in the wrong place. He seems to make the entirety of the military onboard look bad.

[Jper]

To be honest, I'm biased towards the civilians because I simply don't like the military too much in real life. But Young IMO isn't exactly a very good leader, of course this emphasizes these are the wrong people in the wrong place. He seems to make the entirety of the military onboard look bad.

It doesn't only seem so, it is so.

[jelgate]

Yeah, but they signed up to be working on Icarus base, not to be stuck on Destiny.

Irrelevent. They are still on a military establishment