Stronghold (914)

[Uber]

I agree.

Folks, this is Sci-Fi Channel ENTERTAINMENT -- not the Military Channel.

Cam's actions were a throw-back to all the WWII movies, (John Wayne, Gary Cooper, et al recklessly taking out the machine gun on the hilll....) you know, the "stuff dreams are made of". In this particular case, turning on your TV and watching one hour of WOW entertainment.

Whether he should have made that charge up the hill or not isn't the real question here. This question that the PTB really want to know is:

Were you entertained? Did you enjoy the hour watching our SG-1 team fighting, screwing up, making mistakes, getting caught by the bad guys and getting saved?

I sure was.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Honestly...not being snarky here.

For me I saw it as yet another opportunity for TPTB to show us how great Super!Cam is, to show us his impetuous nature in action...and it made me cringe. I like my heroes to have flaws and angst, but I don't like it when it threatens the safety of the others because they can't reign it in.

And while it is entertainment, they usually don't allow their leading characters to disregard military protocol and go off half cocked. Never has there been an incident in my memory where a team member ran off and did things his/her way because they were angry at the world and had no regard for orders or the safety of the team.

The show is about the team working together to solve things...not a Lone Ranger going off to take care of business by himself, ignoring the mission leader in the process.

And the idea of him...all by himself...wandering around a Goa'uld mothership taking out all the Jaffa...all by himself...SCREAMS Super!Cam. Further, since when does SG-1 worry that they might be trapped on a mothership? That's what they do. I just don't buy Sam sending a very green Mitchell...all by himself...onto that ship...all by himself...to rescue Teal'c...all by himself.

I can't suspend disbelief that far.

[warmbeachbrat]

But we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

From the transcript for Paradise Lost (and I'm not passing judgment on whether she is right or wrong in this episode--it's just an example of when her personal feelings were very much involved):

Scene: Ruins

The scientists are packing up. Sam walks in.

CARTER: I covered as much territory as the range of the UAV will allow.

TEAL’C: Have you received word from the Tok’ra?

CARTER: Yeah, they responded and said they didn’t know when one of their operatives with access to a ship would be able to help us.. what are they doing?

TEAL’C: I believe they have completed their analyses.

CARTER: Excuse me? Where’s Colonel O’Neill? I don’t see him, do you? Did you guys find him while I was gone?

LEE: We’ve been here for a week and I’m not sure, but I’m pretty certain we could all spend the rest of our natural lives trying to figure out exactly how this thing works. Do you know what? Even if I could snap my fingers and turn it on right now, I’m beginning to doubt whether it would determine where it sent Colonel O’Neill. I’d bet almost anything that the targeting data is in the artefact that Colonel Maybourne used to open that doorway.

CARTER: I say when we’re done here.

LEE: With all due respect Major, I will submit my report to General Hammond. If he’s prepared to commit to a long term analysis project, I’m happy to come back, with my big suitcase. But until then, if you’ll excuse me?


And if I've read one post, I've read a hundred bemoaning Sam's lack of judgment in the episode Gemini (which I don't share, by the way--what else could she have done?).

I'm not knocking Sam--please don't take it that way--I'm trying to point out that Mitchell, Sam, and actually, probably every single member of the SGC has done something not quite kosher or in the grip of strong emotion. Other people have given quite interesting insights on Cam's actions, so I won't cover territory previously addressed.

[Uber]

From the transcript for Paradise Lost (and I'm not passing judgment on whether she is right or wrong in this episode--it's just an example of when her personal feelings were very much involved):

Scene: Ruins

The scientists are packing up. Sam walks in.

CARTER: I covered as much territory as the range of the UAV will allow.

TEAL’C: Have you received word from the Tok’ra?

CARTER: Yeah, they responded and said they didn’t know when one of their operatives with access to a ship would be able to help us.. what are they doing?

TEAL’C: I believe they have completed their analyses.

CARTER: Excuse me? Where’s Colonel O’Neill? I don’t see him, do you? Did you guys find him while I was gone?

LEE: We’ve been here for a week and I’m not sure, but I’m pretty certain we could all spend the rest of our natural lives trying to figure out exactly how this thing works. Do you know what? Even if I could snap my fingers and turn it on right now, I’m beginning to doubt whether it would determine where it sent Colonel O’Neill. I’d bet almost anything that the targeting data is in the artefact that Colonel Maybourne used to open that doorway.

CARTER: I say when we’re done here.

LEE: With all due respect Major, I will submit my report to General Hammond. If he’s prepared to commit to a long term analysis project, I’m happy to come back, with my big suitcase. But until then, if you’ll excuse me?


And if I've read one post, I've read a hundred bemoaning Sam's lack of judgment in the episode Gemini (which I don't share, by the way--what else could she have done?).

I'm not knocking Sam--please don't take it that way--I'm trying to point out that Mitchell, Sam, and actually, probably every single member of the SGC has done something not quite kosher or in the grip of strong emotion. Other people have given quite interesting insights on Cam's actions, so I won't cover territory previously addressed.

Sam didn't disobey orders in Paradise Lost. Sam didn't put anyone in danger in Paradise Lost. She was upset...no doubt...and over the years we've seen all of them go through one emotional roller coaster or another. But she did not do anything that could potentially compromise the safety of her team.

Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

[Skydiver]

while i do think that we should have seen sam jumping cam's tush, on the mission isn't the time or place. after would be better

we will never see it. just liek we never saw her put dr lee back in his place after he disregarded his orders and bailed.

why?

cause the writers don't like dealing with things like reality...not when they get in the way of the story. cam needed to pull a rambo cause, well he is the Hero. he is SuperCam!!! the savior of the show and holder of the almighty ratings god

cam will always get a freebie simply because his name is first in the credits so he's exempt from anything approaching reality.

he's also a marty sue and, well marty sue's that pull rambos are simply patted on the back and welcomed into the club with the cool kids.

For the sake of the character, i really wish the writers would stop doing this to him. stop writing him like a hero, stop making him exempt from the rules and stop adjusting reality to make him fit.

they may be making things easier for themselves in teh short run, but in the long run they're creating a character that's almost comical in teh fact that he's teflon....nothing sticks

[whatswiththehairtealc]

wow, this episode sucks, i watched it twice to make sure, and yup it sucks!! i cant place my finger on it but it was just the most boring episode since s1E2.

[warmbeachbrat]

Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

I totally agree about Gemini--I referenced golfbooy's really wonderful post in the best of tournament when Gemini was in danger of being voted out to try to delay it's exit (to no avail, alas).

Did you see any of the following quotes?

Mitchell's run for it - made sense to me ( I am not a military person though). He saw a chance to take out the guy on the hill with the big gun - he checked with the soldiers next to him ( I noted this as just watched the ep) who nodded they would back him up and he took off with them covering him. It was a quickly planned move that worked. Good idea I would say. There was no time to check with Sam for the order as she was on the other side with Daniel.

I see your point and I don't disagree; I just don't see it as heinous an offense as some others do, probably because I don't think he was risking the lives of others any more than they were at risk for being on the mission in the first place. I don't have every episode memorized, but I'm sure at some point someone yelled, "Cover me!" and ran out into a firefight without giving the team time to discuss it. So, Mitchell didn't yell "Cover me!" but that also means that he didn't expect them to risk their lives laying down cover fire while he did the same thing the person yelling, "Cover me!" did. I guess because I see many westerns/action movies that do this, that it didn't affect me like it did some people.

Was what Mitchell did reckless? Yes...but he also saw the opportunity.

If Mitchell hadn't pulled a rambo...Baal's ship would have taken off long before SG-1 (who was pinned down) could have gotten to it in time.

It wwas Mitchell's moving in to take out the gun turrent that allowed for SG-1 to make it to the ship in time. After that there was no time to regroup, they had to get to the ship right away. Not stand around dicussing it. And once the team got there, Sam told him to go.

I thought these were all good points, that should mitigate a great deal of the criticism towards Mitchell. Another point--Ferguson was pointing out that he wasn't criticizing Mitchell, he was trying to show him that his faults could also be his strengths. That the impetuousness and impatience can sometimes break through paralysis in the heat of battle and win the day.

Also, I totally did NOT get the Supercam vibe that so many are bringing up. I suppose if he'd waited behind like a good little soldier, some would say what use is he, why is he on the team, why doesn't he take initiative like a leader?

Drat! I didn't plan on becoming a Cameron Mitchell apologist, but I'm getting mighty tired of all the piling on. He can do no right in some eyes, and with the worst spin put on any of his actions and behaviors, I just don't think it's being fair to the character.

[the dancer of spaz]

But we needed to see it Skydiver. Further I don't remember Sam ever EVER endangering a mission or the team because she was having a bad day. I don't remember her ever putting her personal feelings above the team for that matter...nor do I ever remember her disrespecting Jack and disregarding his orders because of her bad mood.

We needed Sam to come up to him and ream him for rushing on ahead and forcing her and Daniel to rush after him because he ignored her and didn't wait for backup. Had it been Jack, he would have come up to Mitchell and smacked him around with his hat yelling at the top of his lungs berating him for his stupidity...and would have lectured him on the difference between heroism and foolishness. I don't think Sam would have been as harsh but I do think she should have said something.

Here's my little scenario as to what to me would have made more sense...

Sam (angry): What the hell were you doing?
Cam: Got us here, didn't I?
Sam: Not the point, Mitchell.
Cam: Sam, I'm not in a mood to...
Sam (interrupting): Cameron, I'm sorry about your friend. I really am. But the next time you unnecessarily endanger yourself, the team and the mission because you're having a bad day...
*Noises from outside*
Cam: Uh Sam...I know I deserve this, but could it wait until we get home?
*Sam finishes with the crystals and glares at him briefly before tempering her emotions*
Sam: If we all go we could be cut off with no way of getting back off the ship.
Daniel: So, business as usual then?
*Cam and Daniel provide cover fire as Sam sets a timed charge on the crystals*
Sam: Okay...let's go!
*the three as a TEAM go on the ring platform and a second or so after they ring up to the ship, the charge detonates...taking out the crystals and the Jaffa who entered the small room. Sam, Daniel and Cam as a TEAM go throughout the ship, taking out the Jaffa until they all come upon Teal'c and Bra'tac and Ba'al...the rest would be essentially the same*

The point is that Mitchell is supposedly a Colonel, supposedly with training and supposedly qualified to be on the frontline team defending earth. He should be able to set aside his personal feelings to get the job done not charge up the hill in hero mode, disregarding the person leading the operation and ignoring common sense all for the sake of showing he's still brash and impetuous.

He proved to me at least he has no business being on any team of this nature...at least not until he can grow up and deal with his issues without endangering the others.

Yeah... soooo... This is what's gonna play through my mind every time I think about Stronghold from now on. It's much less offensive to the mind. Thanks!

[ShardsofGlass]

Sam didn't disobey orders in Paradise Lost. Sam didn't put anyone in danger in Paradise Lost. She was upset...no doubt...and over the years we've seen all of them go through one emotional roller coaster or another. But she did not do anything that could potentially compromise the safety of her team.

Gemini...there's a great post by golfbooy that I copied to the Gemini thread which lays out pretty clearly that they each responded to the situation presented to them in a typically proactive fashion and weren't as out of character as some people bemoan.

In Stronghold, this was the heat of battle, where you have to have a clear head. You can't afford to be impetuous and hot headed or people die. That's why they're there...because they are the best of the best and should be able to set aside personal issues to do the job.

With Mitchell, the supposed leader or co-leader, we saw a man who was so wrapped up in his anger and grief that he ran off half cocked and disregarded orders and his team in the process. I don't find that heroic or endearing. I find it stupid and irresponsible.

That's one interpretation, but it's not necessarily the correct one. Another interpretation is that Mitchell saw an opening and took it, knowing that the ship was going to take off any moment. What's the point of the mission? Being a team and practicing good communication skills? No, it's to rescue Teal'c.

You can assume the worst of Mitchell, that he was running up the hill to be a showoff or because he can't controle his emotions. Though I'm not sure why anyone would want to assume the worst. Or you could assume that time was of the essence and that he was determined to rescue Teal'c before it was too late. I see it as someone doing what he needed to do.

How do you know that stopping and waiting for Carter and Daniel wouldn't have been the worst possible decision in the world? How do you know that the ship wouldn't have taken off while they regrouped? In battle, I imagine you have to make split-second decisions, which is what Mitchell did. Plus, it's not like he was pursuing his own agenda or something. He was doing what they all wanted to do, which was to get Teal'c off that ship.

[KillerMercury]

He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now.

I hope they do, sort of how Daniel was getting all the girls the first few seasons.

[ellenrose]

He certainly has the potential for being a ladies' man! LOL. But I don't see it happening on screen, yet. Yes, he's been bold about showing his appreciation for women and made allusions to past encounters [not all successful, it seems], but he's in his late 30's, early 40's and I would expect him to have had a few liaisons. This may be developed in the future and you may well be proven correct, I'm just not seeing it now

ChillinThe Most Good points. Always nice to have a man on a show who likes the ladies. One point about Mitchell's age though. In Collateral Damage he said that he watched the first shuttle launch with his Dad when he was ten. That would make him 35 now as that launch took place in 1981. This may explain why he has a healthy interest in socializing with the opposite sex - as he is not an old guy of 40 .

Of course we all know Ben Browder is 43 - the guy gets younger and younger. Go Ben.

[KillerMercury]

ChillinThe Most Good points. Always nice to have a man on a show who likes the ladies. One point about Mitchell's age though. In Collateral Damage he said that he watched the first shuttle launch with his Dad when he was ten. That would make him 35 now as that launch took place in 1981. This may explain why he has a healthy interest in socializing with the opposite sex - as he is not an old guy of 40 .

Of course we all know Ben Browder is 43 - the guy gets younger and younger. Go Ben.

I thought he watched the first mission to the moon, which was in 1969.

[ellenrose]

I thought he watched the first mission to the moon, which was in 1969.

I checked just now. Mitchell said in Collateral Damage they watched the "first shuttle launch". That took place in 1981.

Or are you confusing him with John Crichton who watched his Dad go on one of the moon launches as I recall ( scapers rush to correct me now).

[Johnquixote]

Mitchell running into battle, at first I thought he was being rash in impatient to move ahead to Teal'c.
But, after rewatching the episode 3 times, I saw something different. First off, just when Cam is beginning to advance forward to the hill, a man yells "GO GO GO". He had cover fire. Also, I don't see how his actions put others in danger, there were atleast thirty guys out there, and there was a cannon blasting at them. He was the closest, he had suppressive fire supporting him. He took an oppurtunity that he saw, which is what I saw mostly in his friend telling him to be who he was. When Cam sees an oppurtunity, he takes it. Teal'c was in danger, and the rescue force was pinned down by a cannon. I did see impatience through the fact that he did not communicate with Sam. What I saw, was Cameron successfully charge up a hill with suppressive fire supporting him, gain position, and destroy the cannon. Then he charges the mothership, again, taking the oppurtunity, but impatiently, hot-headed-ly. As someone before mentioned, there is an appropriate time for acting quickly when time is of the essence. If it wasn't for the rings not being operable, he would have flawlessly rescued Teal'c. Luckily, he had Sam and Teal'c backing him up.
I found his charging the cannon completely logical.
I found his charging the mothership appropriate due to time.

My first interpretation was that the writers were letting Mitchell charge in like crazy and win, then I thought how bad a decision his charge was, then I considered the circumstances and found his charge right for the situation.
Mitchell does need to improve teamwork in ground combat situations, and improve his impatience, hopefully, his last sentence of the episode, "I'm still working on that," refers to him trying to find himself and correct his flaws.

[ellenrose]

Mitchell running into battle, at first I thought he was being rash in impatient to move ahead to Teal'c.
But, after rewatching the episode 3 times, I saw something different. First off, just when Cam is beginning to advance forward to the hill, a man yells "GO GO GO". He had cover fire. Also, I don't see how his actions put others in danger, there were atleast thirty guys out there, and there was a cannon blasting at them. He was the closest, he had suppressive fire supporting him. He took an oppurtunity that he saw, which is what I saw mostly in his friend telling him to be who he was. When Cam sees an oppurtunity, he takes it. Teal'c was in danger, and the rescue force was pinned down by a cannon. I did see impatience through the fact that he did not communicate with Sam. What I saw, was Cameron successfully charge up a hill with suppressive fire supporting him, gain position, and destroy the cannon. Then he charges the mothership, again, taking the oppurtunity, but impatiently, hot-headed-ly. As someone before mentioned, there is an appropriate time for acting quickly when time is of the essence. If it wasn't for the rings not being operable, he would have flawlessly rescued Teal'c. Luckily, he had Sam and Teal'c backing him up.
I found his charging the cannon completely logical.
I found his charging the mothership appropriate due to time.

My first interpretation was that the writers were letting Mitchell charge in like crazy and win, then I thought how bad a decision his charge was, then I considered the circumstances and found his charge right for the situation.
Mitchell does need to improve teamwork in ground combat situations, and improve his impatience, hopefully, his last sentence of the episode, "I'm still working on that," refers to him trying to find himself and correct his flaws.

Good summary and I agree with you. I did notice the other soldier waving him on but missed the yelling Go Go Go. If you look at the sequence again he was not being reckless - just going in at the right moment to save Teal'c. The others could not as were in the wrong position behind the rock.

It is possible that what he did in the past that required his friend to save him may have been more reckless - we are not told. What is important is that he was able to act and perform in battle in spite of what he had been through in the past.

As for his shoot up on the ship - did any scapers out there have a moment when they wondered where Winona was? I did.

[PugGate]

I was reading the review of Stronghold and I noticed something odd. I know its a little nitpicky, but when Livi Dolgin said they should just give Ferguson a Tok'ra symbiote, I think Livi missed one small thing. Ferguson has a chunk of metal stuck in his head and I'm not sure how the whole 'Tok'ra healy thingy' works, but I don't think they can cure him of shrapnel.
With the whole Al'kesh being shot down, when are the Goa'uld going to get a clue and put shield generator or something on their bombers????
I thought Landry's speech was really cool, especially having about half the SG teams going after Ba'al