Origin (903)

[SirGalahad]

All in all it wasn't a bad episode, but it was far from the best.

As a 3 part story arc, it was pretty good. However, I do have a few issues.

Origin seemed a little rushed. They really didn't need to do the Gerak story line. The whole Jaffa rebellion would have better been addressed in a separate episode.

Additionally, the Prior coming to SGC and Milky Way immediately could have been left to a later episode as well. Starting off another episode with perhaps a half-dozen Priors walking into a Stargate would have made for the beginnings of a really good episode.

Seemed to me like the whole Ori/Daniel thing should have been more than enough to fill the whole episode.

As for the Ori, they make good potential villains, however at this point I just don't feel that invested in them. Yes, they are potentially very evil, and make intriguing villains, but I just don't feel that we've seen enough about them to really feel how deep that evil can be.

For example, it would have been alot more interesting if they'd burned Pharus along with Daniel and Vala. The death by Darth Vader force powers was a little anti-climactic. A scene of torture mixed with sympathy and pity from the Prior prior to burning would have been a bit more disturbing and probably would have been more emotionally meaningful.

Similarly, I really didn't like the Mitchell tossing the communication device into the Stargate as a way of getting them back. It just seemed a little contrived. How much better would it have been for plot development if Daniel and Vala had burned to death, but upon their death they had been returned to their bodies? The emotional impact of Daniel/Vala burning, then physically dying at the SGC, then reviving would have resulted in a much more disturbing and dramatic character development. Not to mention the potential plot device the communication device could serve in the future. Though the concept of Daniel burning to death is unpleasant, it would have definitely put Daniel in a far more interesting place emotionally, as well as given more impetus to that sense of fear/trauma.

Finally, I really would have liked it had the Ori had talked about sending ships/missionaries while Daniel was still in their presence. Gods don't need to plot secretly. I can imagine it going something like this...

DJ: You can kill me, but I don't care what you say. I won't change what I believe.
Doci: Thank you Daniel Jackson, for you have shown us how great is the need to free your people.
DJ: I... I'm not sure I understand.
Doci to Prior: Gather the faithful. We shall build ships and send missionaries to cleanse the Evil and show the unfaithful the true path. Soon they shall all know the path of true enlightenment. And those who do not follow the path, shall be destroyed.
Prior : Hallow are the Orii.
Doci: We are done with him. Remove him from our sight.

I personally see no reason why they shouldn't be laying the guilt on Daniel extra thick. I would really liked to have seen Daniel in more a sense of despair.

Perhaps talking with Vala in the infirmary, wondering what happened to their hosts. Then, maybe ending with them in the briefing room and mumbling something like, "Maybe they're not Gods, but their powers are real. They're coming General Landry. They're coming..."

This could have made for an excellent season arc, with the focus being on trying to co-ordinate allies/etc. in preparation for the coming of the Orii.

Who knows, they may be able to salvage it still.

SirGalahad

[Daniel359]

Did anyone notice the blooper in Origin? Toward the end, Daniel and Vala were talking in their house. Vala was standing in front of the mirror seeing the woman she was possessing. As they were talking, Daniel passed behind her, and in the mirror you see Daniel Jackson, not the person he was possessing! If you have the epi taped, watch it again and you will see it.

[LMichelle]

Okay, I've seen it a couple times, so I can sufficiently nitpick now.

I didn't like this as much as the previous two eps. I expected more Daniel/Vala scenes.

I love the little anecdotes from Mitchell's past about hsi grandmother. I know Ben's from the south and as a Southerner it pleased me to here him say reckon. Anymore southern speak from him and I'm in danger of melting into a fangirl puddle.

It's a good thing the writers didn't hit us over the head with religious overtones. Oh, wait, they did.

"Hallowed are the Ori." I am *so* over that phrase.

The scene between Daniel and Jack seemed forced. Like TPTB had to put Jack back in there to appease us. C'mon, we deserve better than that.

Other than that, I'm enjoying the Cameron, Daniel and Vala show.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Wow, what a brave new world our writers have chosen to show us....

My husband and I were somewhat flabergasted and pleased to see a story that looked like the European invasion by Catholic missionaries and soldiers into North and South America with a little Spanish inquisition thrown in for good measure.

Also, General Landry and Mitchel discussing the snake-oil salemen... er... religious missionaries that wanted to fill the void left by the Goa'uld reminded me of the huge influx of religions into Russia when Communism fell.

Sure I know that a serious study of world history could put just about any long-standing religion as the Ori/Priors but I am better aquainted with Catholic history, and if the same can be said for other religions, then, well... isn't that interesting.....

Anyways, kudos to TPTB for having the balls to do this.

Landry never looked more like the right man at the right place than in Origin. I like his attitude. He's gonna be okay - not that I doubted he wouldn't be. There is a wonderful flavor he brings to his role with his historic quotes. He kinda reminds me of Captain Sheridan from B5 in this respect. He's a guy who gets history, who is intent on using the invaluable insights and experiences of his forebears.

Val was a pleasure to watch, this time. She was smart, rather than merely smat-mouthed. She contributed in a meaningful way(but I'll have to watch a second time to be more specific....)

Mitchel is a smart guy, in the same way that Jack is; Jack would have done the same thing with the Ancient communication console, I think. But that's a good thing(even if it shows that the same writers who gave Jack the smart moves are also writing Mitchel ).

Daniel was absolutely terrific, throughout the ep,but especially when confronted with the Doci. He kept his cool and reasoned so well under the most extreme pressure, especially when he knew what was at stake, that a Prior was already on Earth, and that his words might damn "us all." But he was right to say them. When Daniel told Jack that he was really afraid this time, I felt that. I could really empathize.

And how terrible, that the people he and Vala had "borrowed" were burned up! That was very powerful.

Origin is SF at it's finest, IMO.

[the fifth man]

What a great post. Nice to see quite a few people who feel as positive as I do about the future of this season.

[KrazyKiko]

I loved the Origion episode - the end scene with the Doci talking about their plans of galactic domination crushes any of the sames desires those serpent snakes Goa'uld (IMO, only) dreamed up. I got a feeling of awe and uneasiness when watching the tactics and history of this new enemy unfold. The future of Season 9 should be good if this new enemy is done right.

The only thing I wish would be explained, and maybe I missed it, was how did the Prior obtain the gate address to our galaxy specifically? We understand Daniel and Vala made the Ori aware of our galaxy, but I don't remember them undergoing any interrogation to divulge the gate addresses of that - or any - world.

Or are we expected to believe that once the Ori learned of the Milky Way, they automatically knew the gate address to the planet? I supposed that would support the "Hallowed are the Ori" argument. haha.

- Jay

[keshou]

Wow, what a brave new world our writers have chosen to show us....

*snip a bunch of cool stuff*

Origin is SF at it's finest, IMO.

I'll have what she's having. **

I'm going to go watch the next episode at Gracie's house.


**note the clever tie-in to the famous scene in "When Harry Met Sally" and Harris and Sallis*

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

I'll have what she's having. **

I'm going to go watch the next episode at Gracie's house.


**note the clever tie-in to the famous scene in "When Harry Met Sally" and Harris and Sallis*

Yes! Yes! Yes! Oh, YES! I did notice that....

[Meredith]

The scene between Daniel and Jack seemed forced. Like TPTB had to put Jack back in there to appease us. C'mon, we deserve better than that.

at first I thought this scene was done on a computer, and they wasn't really together there - it looked... strange

[Piratejenna]

I finally get to join the party, having managed to watch Origin a few times. This is certainly one of those episodes which you need to watch more than once.

I don't think Origin had the emotional power of Avalon 2, but it was crammed full of ideas, and made a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the trilogy. As a story, its a bit of a mess - too much going on, and structurally not great. Where Avalon 2 started as gentle comedy and then accelerated towards a very clear and powerful climax, Origin lacks dramatic shape (sorry, that's a really pretentious way to put it, but it's hard to express without writing a thesis!). The high point SHOULD be Daniel's confrontation with the Ori. That's the critical turning point of the whole story. It should be tense and increasingly chilling as the Ori reveal themselves to Daniel and Daniel starts to realise the magnitude of the problem. But there's something wrong with it. I don't think the staging works - very static, the close-up angle on Julian Sands face is wrong (the costume is designed to be symetrical from head-on, and it just annoyed me that the camera was slightly off. These things bug me!). I've watched the scene several times now and I keep thinking 'Where's the Steadycam Operator when you need him?' Definitely not convinced by the directing/editing in this episode, so the clear weaknesses in the Daniel/Jack scene don't particularly surprise me. The burning of Daniel and Vala also felt off compared with Avalon 2, although I think the problem there was that Vala's first burning was SO well done and harrowing that there was no way it could be topped.

The only character to slightly annoy me in this episode was Mitchell - I agree with everyone who suggested that they are still trying to figure out who he is but I find it a bit ominous that BB automatically turns on what he believes to be his Good Ole Southern Boy Charm when he's pushing his characterization. I keep wanting someone to smack him round the head and tell him 'That's not charming, it's obnoxiously cocky!'

Where Origin scores is as the conclusion of a trilogy which has opened up the Stargate universe. The Stargate of the Goa'uld system lords was a kind of Feudal galaxy - simplistic, everyone knew their place in life, where the conflict was the oppressed rising up against their oppressors. Season 9 has a much bigger and more complex universe to play in. Feudalism has fallen, and what is emerging is something more like medieval Europe moving into the Renaissance: the rise of the nation states, expansion of alternative worldviews both religious and secular, and a galactic economy of colonies and free traders. This sense of a living, dynamic universe is something Babylon 5 did exceptionally well, but I've never really felt it much in Stargate, until now.

The big question mark, for me, is whether the writers will be allowed to develop their expanding universe in depth. There's a strand in Stargate fandom which seems incredibly impatient and wants everything handed to them NOW, this episode, and if it hasn't all been explained by the end of 42 minutes its 'bad writing'. That kind of attitude doesn't really lend itself to complex, intertwining storylines on an epic scale, and it certainly doesn't lend itself to subtle character development. The writers will have to tread a path between the expositionary approach (Tell them what's going to happen, then tell them what's happening, and then summarise at the end for those who didn't get it) and the more sophisticated approach that many sci-fi viewers now expect and appreciate as a result of shows like B5, Farscape and BSG. I think TPTB can succeed, because one of the things SG-1 has always been best at (certainly better than either farscape or BSG) is keeping characters in focus and making sure that the story is always about the people we care about.

[Steve-C]

at first I thought this scene was done on a computer, and they wasn't really together there - it looked... strange

Hi all, first post in the general forums....so be nice!

I must agree with Mereith, I watched that bit a couple of times, and it struck me as almost a computer generated O'Neill too. The scenes seemed very forced, and almost as if RDA was playing a different character.

Whilst it was nice to get a send off from O'Neil, it just didn't have the same feeling as any other episode. Not one scene I'll be rewatching unlike say "It's a blast door" in Reckoning, or the "We're under new management" scene in Full Alert....

Still SG-1 looks like it could continue as a great show...I think the trilogy has shown there can be good interaction between Mitchell and Teal'C/Daniel. It will be interesting to see how he works with Sam.

Steve

[Droops]

Overall, I was entertained. I thought that leaving the Jaffa meeting up in the air like that after the Prior disappeared, and not getting their reactions or saying goodbye, was a plot problem. I also thought the scene with RDA was a bit of a 'pass the baton' scene that could have been cut down in order to resolve the above-referenced dangling plot thread.

Otherwise, fine episode. Vala was very impressive, and it's always fun to watch Daniel try to talk and understand what's going on.

I thought that the SGA episode that evening was a bit better, but I'm not disappointed by this one.

[DarkQuee1]

>>OK, the Ori didn't know about our galaxy? Huh? They're Ascended. On a higher plane of existence with all the knowledge of the universe at their fingertips--and they didn't know about our galaxy? Funny. They knew all about it *before* they Ascended. Heck, they lived here!<<

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the prior two episodes explained that the Ancients/Alterans came from the "Ori galaxy" after they split away from the Ori on apparently philosophical issues and it was the Alterans who seeded life in the Milky Way and formed the alliance with the Asgard, Nox and Furlings.

And the Ori made no effort to find out where their beknighted, misguided and evil brethren went? GEnerally, fanatics don't let anyone truly ever walk away. Plus, they were an advanced race at that point and certainly knew about the existence of all of the galaxies in the local group and others beyond that. We know about them, and we are hardly at the Ori level of technology or advancement. But they didn't know our galaxy was here? And if they didn't know it earlier, they certainly should have known it once they ascended. If nothing else, they certainly should have been aware of the existence of the Others and "where" they were--and what playground they were playing in.

Who were the "Ancients" in the Pegasus galaxy? Seemed like they were the ones that came to our galaxy and from there to Pegasus--and this was before they learned to Ascend. In fact, SGA told us that the Ancients were studying ascension while on Atlantis; they didn't seem to have the knack as yet. No indication that they were studying it before that (which is well over 5 million years ago, since Atlantis left Earth 5 million years ago). If we buy the split you mention, then the Ori were not ascended at that time either, since it would have been impossible for non-Ascended to have "split" from Ascended. In fact, that ep of SGA implies that it was the creature trapped in the city that gave the Ancients the idea to ascend, ie, to become beings of energy. The Ori weren't anywhere around to get the same idea. Are we to assume that both groups discovered ascension independently? Not totally impossible, but not highly likely, especially without the same impetus as the creature found in the Pegasus galaxy. (And we were also given the impression that the Ancients did not ascend until they returned to Earth. Certainly, Ascended beings would not have been defeated by the Wraith.)

ARe we also to assume that the Ori are also ignorant of the Pegasus galaxy? This really makes no sense in light of the Ori fanaticism or knowledge (If nothing else, they would still be trying to make their kindred see the light). Yet, they appear to have ignored the Pegasus galaxy as well. (It would be interesting to see them show up in Pegasus. I presume they wouldn't look kindly on the Wraith eating their prospective subjects.)

The problem is that TPTB are increasingly over the last two years not thinking ideas through all the way, to plug the holes. We can fanwank it, but I've reached the point (and this is not limited to Stargate) where I refuse to fanwank big plot holes for the writers. That's their job.

[GhostPoet]

And the Ori made no effort to find out where their beknighted, misguided and evil brethren went? GEnerally, fanatics don't let anyone truly ever walk away. Plus, they were an advanced race at that point and certainly knew about the existence of all of the galaxies in the local group and others beyond that. We know about them, and we are hardly at the Ori level of technology or advancement. But they didn't know our galaxy was here? And if they didn't know it earlier, they certainly should have known it once they ascended. If nothing else, they certainly should have been aware of the existence of the Others and "where" they were--and what playground they were playing in.

Who were the "Ancients" in the Pegasus galaxy? Seemed like they were the ones that came to our galaxy and from there to Pegasus--and this was before they learned to Ascend. In fact, SGA told us that the Ancients were studying ascension while on Atlantis; they didn't seem to have the knack as yet. No indication that they were studying it before that (which is well over 5 million years ago, since Atlantis left Earth 5 million years ago). If we buy the split you mention, then the Ori were not ascended at that time either, since it would have been impossible for non-Ascended to have "split" from Ascended. In fact, that ep of SGA implies that it was the creature trapped in the city that gave the Ancients the idea to ascend, ie, to become beings of energy. The Ori weren't anywhere around to get the same idea. Are we to assume that both groups discovered ascension independently? Not totally impossible, but not highly likely, especially without the same impetus as the creature found in the Pegasus galaxy. (And we were also given the impression that the Ancients did not ascend until they returned to Earth. Certainly, Ascended beings would not have been defeated by the Wraith.)

ARe we also to assume that the Ori are also ignorant of the Pegasus galaxy? This really makes no sense in light of the Ori fanaticism or knowledge (If nothing else, they would still be trying to make their kindred see the light). Yet, they appear to have ignored the Pegasus galaxy as well. (It would be interesting to see them show up in Pegasus. I presume they wouldn't look kindly on the Wraith eating their prospective subjects.)

The problem is that TPTB are increasingly over the last two years not thinking ideas through all the way, to plug the holes. We can fanwank it, but I've reached the point (and this is not limited to Stargate) where I refuse to fanwank big plot holes for the writers. That's their job.

They already explained in the episode why the Orii didn't know about Earth. The Ancients were protecting earth..keeping it invisible to the Orii's vision. The Orii were not ignorant...they just couldn't see it.

As for who accended first (or at the same time) That's a speculation that is way too wide to guess on. They could have found the research after the people on atlantis discovered it..they would have thought it up themselves...there are countless speculations for it. I'm guessing the ancients ascended first...

[QuiGonJohn]

Who were the "Ancients" in the Pegasus galaxy? Seemed like they were the ones that came to our galaxy and from there to Pegasus--and this was before they learned to Ascend. In fact, SGA told us that the Ancients were studying ascension while on Atlantis; they didn't seem to have the knack as yet. No indication that they were studying it before that (which is well over 5 million years ago, since Atlantis left Earth 5 million years ago). If we buy the split you mention, then the Ori were not ascended at that time either, since it would have been impossible for non-Ascended to have "split" from Ascended. In fact, that ep of SGA implies that it was the creature trapped in the city that gave the Ancients the idea to ascend, ie, to become beings of energy. The Ori weren't anywhere around to get the same idea. Are we to assume that both groups discovered ascension independently? Not totally impossible, but not highly likely, especially without the same impetus as the creature found in the Pegasus galaxy. (And we were also given the impression that the Ancients did not ascend until they returned to Earth. Certainly, Ascended beings would not have been defeated by the Wraith.)

Which episode of SGA?