Full Circle (622)

[EvenstarSRV]

I agree--that's what I find problematic. It means that the rules of the ascended are entirely selfish, even to the point of finding it unnecessary to protect other beings who have the potential to ascend, who are like them, but haven't completed the journey. Only those who have actually ascended matter, not those who could ascend, or life forms who are incapable.
So if only ascension is important, as a completed reality, not a potential one, what is it that is so much more evolved about them? The ability to shed corporeal form?

Well, I think something being 'more evolved' doesn't necessarily translate into being a more unselfish being. The Ancients still retain their original soul/essence/etc, so I think they're still as fallible as humans, still prone to selfishness, greed, arrogance, etc.

So yes, I do think the 'evolved' part of the Ancients is just their ability to shed physical form and become energy, which gives them access to the other powers. Like with Abydos ascending, or Anubis, or Adria, one apparently doesn't have to be 'good' or selfless to ascend. So it stands to reason that those who've ascended, the Ancients as a collective, could very well be rather selfish people who value the sanctity of their own rules above all else.

[amconway]

Well, I think something being 'more evolved' doesn't necessarily translate into being a more unselfish being. The Ancients still retain their original soul/essence/etc, so I think they're still as fallible as humans, still prone to selfishness, greed, arrogance, etc.

So yes, I do think the 'evolved' part of the Ancients is just their ability to shed physical form and become energy, which gives them access to the other powers. Like with Abydos ascending, or Anubis, one apparently doesn't have to be 'good' or selfless to ascend. So it stands to reason that those who've ascended, the Ancients as a collective, could very well be rather selfish people who value the sanctity of their own rules above all else.

I'm afraid I agree with you completely--rather heartbreaking when you look at what Daniel thought they were in 'Maternal Instinct', his willingness to ascend 'to do more', and his dealings with them afterward as it became increasingly obvious that they weren't what he'd hoped. *sigh* Oh, Daniel...

[kennythewraith]

Well, I think something being 'more evolved' doesn't necessarily translate into being a more unselfish being. The Ancients still retain their original soul/essence/etc, so I think they're still as fallible as humans, still prone to selfishness, greed, arrogance, etc.

So yes, I do think the 'evolved' part of the Ancients is just their ability to shed physical form and become energy, which gives them access to the other powers. Like with Abydos ascending, or Anubis, or Adria, one apparently doesn't have to be 'good' or selfless to ascend. So it stands to reason that those who've ascended, the Ancients as a collective, could very well be rather selfish people who value the sanctity of their own rules above all else.

i agree..just because they eveolved....dont mean they are better or any different from us...except you know...the bodyless energy thing.......
yeah finding out that being pure of heart doesnt mean you ascend and that some real bad people did cheapened the whole thing for me.

I'm afraid I agree with you completely--rather heartbreaking when you look at what Daniel thought they were in 'Maternal Instinct', his willingness to ascend 'to do more', and his dealings with them afterward as it became increasingly obvious that they weren't what he'd hoped. *sigh* Oh, Daniel...

poor guy respected them and stuck up for them but finally realized they arent wht he thought....it was really sad but also good...i cant stand the riddles and sayings Oma uses...they make no sense at all....kinda sound like bad fortunes from a fortune cookie...

[amconway]

i cant stand the riddles and sayings Oma uses...they make no sense at all....kinda sound like bad fortunes from a fortune cookie...

Well, those were based on zen koans, which have a religious function in meditation (as I understand it-which is not very). This is what I found about them on the wikipedia page on Zen:

Koans often appear to be paradoxical or linguistically meaningless dialogues or questions. But to Zen Buddhists the koan is "the place and the time and the event where truth reveals itself"[21] unobstructed by the oppositions and differentiations of language. Answering a koan requires a student to let go of conceptual thinking and of the logical way we order the world, so that like creativity in art, the appropriate insight and response arises naturally and spontaneously in the mind.

[kennythewraith]

Well, those were based on zen koens, which have a religious function in meditation (as I understand it-which is not very). This is what I found about them on the wikipedia page on Zen:

to quote my favorite General...."that was a waste of a perfectly good explanation" lol

[amconway]

to quote my favorite General...."that was a waste of a perfectly good explanation" lol

Lol! Sorry. Chanelled Daniel for a minute there... There's a reason he's my favorite.

[EvenstarSRV]

i agree..just because they eveolved....dont mean they are better or any different from us...except you know...the bodyless energy thing.......
yeah finding out that being pure of heart doesnt mean you ascend and that some real bad people did cheapened the whole thing for me.

In a way, I actually really like the fact that achieving ascension doesn't necessarily mean that you're a better person than someone who doesn't ascend, it just meant you made a different choice. I like that being an Ancient doesn't mean you're inherently better than ordinary humans.

Because in all honesty, I'm not comfortable with thinking that, because Daniel was able to achieve ascension upon his death, he was somehow 'better' or more pure of heart or more selfless than some of those who did not ascend when they died, like Janet, Jacob, Sha're, etc. So learning the truth behind ascension made it a bit less mystical and more even-handed for me, which I liked.

[kennythewraith]

Lol! Sorry. Chanelled Daniel for a minute there... There's a reason he's my favorite.

lol and theres a reason Jack is my favo...wait Sams my favorite because shes....wait lets not go there...yeah theres a reason Jack is my favorite.lol

[amconway]

lol and theres a reason Jack is my favo...wait Sams my favorite because shes....wait lets not go there...yeah theres a reason Jack is my favorite.lol

Bwahaha! Dang, Kenny, you make me smile!

[kennythewraith]

Bwahaha! Dang, Kenny, you make me smile!

lol its what i do conway...

[amconway]

In a way, I actually really like the fact that achieving ascension doesn't necessarily mean that you're a better person than someone who doesn't ascend, it just meant you made a different choice. I like that being an Ancient doesn't mean you're inherently better than ordinary humans.

Because in all honesty, I'm not comfortable with thinking that, because Daniel was able to achieve ascension upon his death, he was somehow 'better' or more pure of heart or more selfless than some of those who did not ascend when they died, like Janet, Jacob, Sha're, etc. So learning the truth behind ascension made it a bit less mystical and more even-handed for me, which I liked.

Color me unsurprised.
I believe we had aspects of this discussion as it relates to the Goa'uld--but that's another episode.

[EvenstarSRV]

Color me unsurprised.
I believe we had aspects of this discussion as it relates to the Goa'uld--but that's another episode.

Yeah...

One of the things that I love most about Stargate is how down-to-earth it feels compared to other sci-fi shows like Farscape, BSG, Star Trek, etc. So the less mystical/fantastical and the more rational/realistic things are on the show, the more I enjoy it.

[amconway]

Yeah...

One of the things that I love most about Stargate is how down-to-earth it feels compared to other sci-fi shows like Farscape, BSG, Star Trek, etc. So the less mystical/fantastical and the more rational/realistic things are on the show, the more I enjoy it.

Y'know, one of the things that I think is great about SG-1 is that events and characterization leave so much room for interpretation, and provide so much food for thought. I think that's one of the think that's partly what made it appeal to such a wide range of people and last for such a long time.

[The Stig]

absolutely fantastic. poor abydos. but daniel came back which is good.

[balo]

What a great episode ending of season 6.

We have action, good acting, Daniel is back , Skaa'ra , Anubis (my favourite villain), the ancients and a bit of Star Wars.

So for me this was a classic Stargate Episode, one of the best.

Rating : 9 / 10