The ori are bad... why exactly?

[Attilitus]

Well in a few examples they resurrected those who had died after they repented.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Well for my speculation to be even close to hitting the truth you would have to assume that the ancients have lied about the nature of the Ori's power. It is a huge "if" but it is a bit more plausible with daniel's newfound dislike for the ancients in the most recent episode. Perhaps the ascended Daniel grew to be philosophically opposed to the ancients in much the same way as the human daniel is now.

Daniel might not like the Ancients but they aren't "evil". Selfish, uncaring, yes, but not "evil". What they do( watching suffering) is wrong but they believe that if they help one being they are hurting another( which is the case) and they are about free will. If one being doesn't want someone to ascend yet that person wanting to ascend is helped, they would view that as against free will. The ancients won't interfere in the affairs of those not on the ascended realm. However, I would expect them to stop the Ori's attempts, even if it means interference. Daniel might not like the Ancients' philosophy but it doesn't mean that the Ori are good. Neither are saints but the ori are evil and selfish whereas the Ancients are selfish and uncaring.

Well in a few examples they resurrected those who had died after they repented.

That's because the Ori want/need the power that they take from them.

[kkfan]

I have made some of these points myself. The people on these planets aren't living in fear, of what the Ori might do to them. They go about their lives in peace, left to their own devices by the Ori, until someone strays from the path that lead to enlightenment. What this is? They have food, shelter, they don't have to worry about their life being sucked, or some malevolent race from another planet, they live in harmony for the most part, all because of the Ori. The Ancient's haven't fixed any of the problems they created, the Wraith,

Spoiler:

the Asurans

. I mean allowing people to be fed on by such a vicious enemy, because of your mistake, seems a lot worse than what the Ori are doing, at the very least equal to what they are doing.

I'd rather have the freedom to live as my own being, make my own choices and fend for myself rather than being protected by someone and be forced to worship them and live by their will in return

[MarshAngel]

But the big picture result is that it does bring structure and contentment into the lives of those who serve the Ori and the power they gain is used towards defeating the ancients who are sheltering unenlightened mortals living in chaos and spreading peace and harmony through their rule as Ori.

Here's the thing, the idea of "contentment" that results from belief in the Ori is questionable at best. Humans are by nature contentious. Just because they are prevented from warring with each other doesn't mean they are content. They aren't in perfect peace or happiness. If Ver Isca is any example, they live normal lives with the same interpersonal conflicts and problems as the average human in the Milky Way. They get sick, they are injured in accidents, they cry when their neighbors spread nasty rumors etc. Once again, using Ver Isca as an example, the Ori appear to interfere to help their followes only when they want something from them. It is their faith that seems to sustain them not the Ori themselves.

And if you accept that they don't make life perfect, it begs the question why six hours? Why not two or one? Imagine what a person could accomplish for themselves in six hours when not devoting mind, body, and soul to another.

Then approaching it from another perspective.... Let's say that belief in the Ori provides their followers contentment and a certainty of destiny. Wonderful for them. If the Ori use these assurances to encourage their followers to kill other humans in their name because it would be better for all.... are they that much different from terrorist cell leaders who encourage suicide bombers with the promise of heavenly rewards? They want to change the world to match their views too. ... the only difference is, the Ori can enact and enforce their view on a massive scale. A world with only one view is a peaceful world, but it's not necessarily a good one. Reminds me a little of Jasmine in Angel.

As for the main question of why the Ori are bad...

Let's say for a moment, we disregard everything Orlin said and the Ori are just another group of ancients with a different philosophy...

If Ascension is so all important, why bother with life on this plane at all? Why not just ascend everyone? Six hours of worship everyday for 80 years doesn't exactly prove you're a good person, just a devoted brainwashed singleminded one. So if goodness is no barrier and ascension is so great, beam me up scotty.

If the Ori cared so much about the destiny and well being of humanity and wanted to interfere to the better, they'd use their power to do all the things they claim the Ancients don't... all that knowledge of the universe stuff that would allow humans to improve their own lives, ascend on their own without waiting for death and the Ori, convince other humans to follow them without having to kill them simply by letting them see all the wonderful benefits of Ori-dom like.... yeeeah, you don't see the wonderful benefits till you die, bummer.

The biggest problem with the Ori though is that they insist on having things their way even though life in the Milky Way and their own ascension having gone through all the things we do, proves we don't need them. We could be fine without them but we don't have a choice because they won't permit us one.

Replacing Ascension with sex....

If I say I don't want to have sex with someone and they insist, under the threat of death telling me that it's for my own good....it's still rape. Do I have to have sex to be happy? To be fulfilled? To complete my human destiny? Isn't it enough that I just don't want to?

[sporka42]

Well once again I bring you to the "big picture" argument. In the ancient's end scenario the vast majority of mortals suffer in war and conflict and a few select beings from a few select intellegent species ascend. In the Ori's end scenario they rule over mortals and bring complete peace and contentment to all.

True peace can not be forced upon anyone. Peace must be created through mutual cooperation and respect. It can not be gained through fear, intimidation and the murder of thousands if not millions of intellegent beings. What the Ori would bring is subjugation, terror and death. The Ori are the spiritual equivalent of the Nazis.

Even in your so called 'big picture' it would never last, there would always be resistance, always be a 5th collum. Always be those that seek answers beyond the so called contentment that Origin offers.

[All hail the USAF]

Hasn't anyone read Faust?

You can have anything you want, right now, without having to work for it...all you have to do is do everything I say whenever I say and think whatever I tell you to whenever I tell you to...

Now...Add take the choice out of that and you have the Ori.

I don't care what who says there is no way to defend or rationalize that.

[MarshAngel]

What I don't get is how or when the Ori get their energy from their followers. Is it while they are praying? Is that why religion is their modus operandi?

my personal theory is that the whole concept of the Ori gaining power from their followers is based on the theory that people shape or create reality as we know it. ie. what you think is what you are, if you believe it you can do it, mind over matter and all that.... kind of like the Matrix, only real.

Part of that theory is that if enough people focused on a single goal they could change its outcome. To make a big enough change, you'd need a lot of people and a lot of concentration hence the hours of worship and the masses. If enough people believe in the strength, power, and invincibility of the Ori, they can essentially make the Ori more powerful. Power to the people.

Why don't the Ori just swarm the near dead for their energy? Why bring the whole religion rigamarole into it?

This works with my theory too. They really need you to believe in them, it's the only way to get what they want. And religion is an amazingly efficient way to get it. We seem naturally inclined to worship; I guess they figured if we're going to do it, it might as well be them.
Now if humans weren't so fractious, they could probably get by without having to enforce and threaten. But they would need absolute devotion and no stray thoughts to get this to work. A single seed of doubt, would be enough to screw up the whole thing. Which is why they'd need to kill unbelievers. Can't afford to have anyone around who even remembers having a moment of doubt and sharing that thought with others.

[Attilitus]

Personally that seems just a little "out of theme" with stargate...

I have thought of something though that would be interesting...

What if the Ori ARE ascending people and are gaining power from their followers by somehow creating an army of ascended beings perhaps of a lesser power in relation to a greater Ori...

Just a thought that is quite a bit out there... I just thought that something along these lines may explain why...

Season 10 not yet aired spoilers...

Spoiler:

Daniel begins to follow and preach from the book of origin as an ori prior.

[the fifth man]

This works with my theory too. They really need you to believe in them, it's the only way to get what they want. And religion is an amazingly efficient way to get it. We seem naturally inclined to worship; I guess they figured if we're going to do it, it might as well be them.
Now if humans weren't so fractious, they could probably get by without having to enforce and threaten. But they would need absolute devotion and no stray thoughts to get this to work. A single seed of doubt, would be enough to screw up the whole thing. Which is why they'd need to kill unbelievers. Can't afford to have anyone around who even remembers having a moment of doubt and sharing that thought with others.

You make a lot of good points that I agree with.

[hyzmarca]

I'd like to know what the Ori's real religious beliefs are (not Origin, but the beliefs that caused the original split with the Alterans). It is quite possible that the Ori still hold those old beliefs and do what they do because they are mandated to do so by an even more highly Ascended being that they believe is a god.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

my personal theory is that the whole concept of the Ori gaining power from their followers is based on the theory that people shape or create reality as we know it. ie. what you think is what you are, if you believe it you can do it, mind over matter and all that.... kind of like the Matrix, only real.

Ooh, this opens some exciting possibilities!

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that the Ori haven't truly split off from our plane of existence. They need our imagination to give their reality form? Are we like a drug to them? Is that why the Ascended won't fool around with us, because they fear addiction?

[Lord Shiva]

They heal the sick and seem to give meaning to the lives of the masses. We saw first hand in Vala's little storytelling that the true believers really are genuinely content...

Besides the whole "being forced to worship" it seems as if they are a positive step forward from the status quo of continuous conflict with intergalactic factions. (Including all war both on Earth, other planets, and between races)

And even the worship doesn't seem all that bad... the followers do not seem to mind prostration and if we accept christian doctorine as morally correct they are living "good christian lives"

They also do not seem to be all that aggressive considering the power they have... They, up to this point, just want us to see the light and voluntarily follow them... which explains why they just didn't wipe us or other non-believers out when they had perfect opportunities to do so...

Just something to consider...

Well, to be honest, the idea of the Ori is great... but their execution of their Doctrine is what makes them evil. It sort of (to give a real life example) is the difference between Islam and Radical Islam (which the terrorists have been labelled). Islam is a beautiful religion, and all who practice it say that it is a very peaceful religion. But when you find out about radical Islam, it is all about killing the non-believers and converting the world to Islam.

Notice the difference?

If the Ori just healed the sick, made the lame walk again, and gave us a peaceful life, heck, I might even join them! After all, while the Ancients say the Ori suck the energy of their followers, it seems that its such a small price to pay - it seemed to me everyone who lived under the Ori were in perfect health... the sapping is probably something minor. But look at what the Ori are doing - creating warships, forming armies, all to go on a crusade to convert or destroy all non-believers to Origin.

This is why the Ori are bad. Not because they can heal the sick - that is a blessing. But because Origin dictates a very radical movement where you kill all unbelievers.

That, my friend, is what is wrong with the Ori.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I'd like to know what the Ori's real religious beliefs are (not Origin, but the beliefs that caused the original split with the Alterans). It is quite possible that the Ori still hold those old beliefs and do what they do because they are mandated to do so by an even more highly Ascended being that they believe is a god.

I think they treat enlightenment like it is a religion. That's theyre 'religion'. That's why they split.

[LORD MONK]

No, the ancients don't ascend people either, they punish ascended beings who help others ascend, they just wont activly stop someone from ascending on their own, and how do you know the ori would act any differently in this regard?

Oma is an Ancient and she Ascends people. Bottom line. there is Keb and if you go to Keb then you will learn how to Ascend. It is a Jaffa Legend and turned out true. Though the Ancients do't like it they still let her do it.

Then there is that Atlantis ep. where you can hide from the Wraith and learned how to Ascend so there. Two examples of the Ancients Ascending people and the Ori are at zero. So yes they Ascend people and yes they interfere to. It just has to be in that fine line and you can be punished for. But they do.

Oma
Orlin
LaFay
Merlin
The one on the planet that protects the people from the Wraith. (can't remember her name)
And yes, even Anubis

Oma interfered in that one to. If she didn't we would all be dead.

[Abiron]

I think what's getting lost here is that we're not saying that the Ancients (and by extension those that have Ascended into their midst) are necessarily "good." The question is, why are the Ori "evil?"

The Ori use their followers as an energy source. In other words, humans who follow Origin are cattle. The Ori give them just enough to keep them alive and reasonably comfortable, and no more. There is no innovation, creativity, or advancement, as we see in every Ori village we've seen. The people are living in medieval conditions when they could easily be living in highly advanced comfort, as shown by the massive warships built with Prior instruction. But the Ori don't want or need their cattle to be living in anything more advanced, since the medieval setting is ideal for their purposes. Thus, the people follow Origin and somehow feed energy to the Ori by doing so. (We may assume that this means that those who do not follow Origin do not feed the Ori, meaning that if we could find a way to convert all the followers we would probably weaken them considerably.)

The Ancients, on the other hand, do not want or need followers. They still have unimaginable power, but they refuse to use it. Perhaps their reason for non-interference is as simple as not wanting to become like the Ori. If they were to use their powers to help lesser beings, there would surely be those who would worship them as gods no matter how many times the Ancients asked them not to. After a while, there would be Ancients who became enamored of the idea of worship, and started showing preference in using their power only for the benefit of their followers...especially if the faith of the followers somehow made them stronger. Perhaps they would still be benevolent at first, but power corrupts...and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And thus the Ancients and the Ori would be the same. So I understand the Ancients not wanting to interfere, since their interference would lead to our dependence upon them in lieu of our own abilities and gifts, which is a few short steps away from treating them as gods.