S10: Critique & Contemplation

[AGateFan]

What I find odd about AoT, is that the promotional pics don't have Vala in them, they show SG1 as a 4 person team?

I wonder if they learned anything from season 9 and 10?

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....15&postcount=1

Man Carter and Daniel look cool in those pics, desert camos bring back good memories of SG-1....too bad they wont let Teal'c put a shirt on...and get rid of that dumaz grey hair. At least hes in a cool regular T-Shirt and not wearing a wife-beater and theres no leather or spandex and such. And of course you cant tell from the pic if thats Daniel or JACKSON....although he doesnt have the superman pose he used in the S10 promos so maybe thats a good sign.

[Skydiver]

well, it's possible that htere is no vala photos because it'd spoil teh plot twist of just who she is

as to Coop potentially running Universe...yeah, color me skeptical. his tastes do not run akin to mine.

my gut feeling is that the 'third movie' is 'glorified SU pilot movie'

[Jackie]

What I find odd about AoT, is that the promotional pics don't have Vala in them, they show SG1 as a 4 person team?

I wonder if they learned anything from season 9 and 10?

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....15&postcount=1

Or vala is no longer a member of SG-1 for the movie. It's also possible that maybe CB wasn't available for promo pics at the time those were shot.

[poundpuppy29]

Or vala is no longer a member of SG-1 for the movie. It's also possible that maybe CB wasn't available for promo pics at the time those were shot.

I believe she was pregnant so that's why she was very pregnant at Dragon Con which was Aug and those promo's were taken in June I believe.

To stay on topic I hated what Cam and Teal'c were doing in Company of Thieves those scenes were awful felt bad for BB and CJ

[Skydiver]

claudia's pregnancy is probably why she's not in promo pics, or the like. I know that i heard at dragon con that she didn't want to pose for pics because of her pregnancy.

there have also not been any promo pics of the 'bad guys' to the best of my knowledge, which is another likely explanation for lack of vala

company of thieves was pretty bad to me, but honestly, bad guys and family is the worst

[astrogeologist]

You know, I don't think it was just the Sam fans, or women who thought that Sam deserved command. I think many who watched the show for a long time thought it would be a natural progression, a coming full circle to see Sam remain in command, and actually get the opportunity to command like Jack did. That's why it didn't make sense putting Cam in charge, people expected SG to make sense and show the fairness it had in earlier years...but that was before the change in showrunners and the loss of Gekko

it was jsut so blatantly sexist and inconsiderate. that was the biggie. cameron's whole situation was just sooooo much a slap in the face.

inexperienced male must lead experienced female

yes, they were both screwed. Ben was pushed to the side. he's teh lead...wouldn't it have made sense for him to have some sort of arc or story??? instead it was all daniel as much as coop could squeeze in.

And i do think that the hopes were that AT would move to atlantis. folks have said as much that they wanted here there for years and the near total lack of sam anything in s9 kinda speaks to her being the fifth wheel - quite literally in s10

coop got his mind set on Vaniel and the Bori and could not/would not see anything else. By the time that the falling ratings kinda clued him in on the idea that his vision of the show wasn't all that popular, it was too late and teh damage had already been done

effectively demoting Sam (and not even apparantly considering that folks might not like it) is just one in a long line of many questionable decisions made by these folks.

I couldn't have swallowed it no matter how they packaged the new male leader. Because the plain fact would have been that they brought in a new male leader. Period. That the female who put in so many years as second in command didn't somehow deserve a shot at command? That she couldn't handle it??? What an absolutely horrendous and ugly thing to even suggest. We don't have enough calm, competent female leaders in the film industry. We could have had one on a popular scifi show.

It was the blatancy of it that made it worse for me. Either way, it would have been disgusting and irresponsible, but the way they wrote Mitchell, it was painfully obvious that the only thing he had that Sam does not is that his reproductive organs are on the outside. They might as well have dressed in T-shirts with "inexperienced male > experienced female" on them.

TPTB have only themselves to blame for the mess they created, but unfortunately for BB, they've caused him to be associated with a disgusting act of sexism.

The opportunity missed is a crime - and an insult to the viewers.

It's a massive insult to the (hopefully vast) majority of viewers who would not have had a problem with a female commander and who possess enough of a sense of fair play to recognize the injustice of Sam's demotion to assume that they would have had a problem with a female commander and not with an unjust demotion.

For the viewers who would have had a problem with a woman in charge - and, horrifyingly, I have seen that argument used in favour of Mitchell's leadership - I would have said that they had a moral responsibility to illustrate by example that a penis is not a requirement for a leader.

Personally, I'm glad that they completely botched bringing in the new male lead. I would have been revolted to see it go over well.

I would have been saddened to know that people either did not recognize or did not care. I was so angry about it that it prompted my first post on Gateworld - joined in November '05, first posted in March '06 - and it was a huge relief for me to see that I was not alone, and that TPTB had, for the most part, underestimated the viewers' sense of justice rather than playing into their lack of same.

Frankly, it scares me that anybody could possibly think that TPTB's actions were justified and I count myself fortunate that I am highly unlikely to be in a position where I am employed by any of them.

I tried to rep folks, but I'm still locked out of that green fridge!

[astrogeologist]

yes, why?

take two well known actors (within the genre) from one genre show and transplant them to another and no one could see the conflict of interest? I mean, part of the 'stargate ripping off trek' crit came from reusing several ST actors on SG. adn with a show as passionately followed as farscape they couldn't even consider the issue????

a blind person could have seen the issue. so....why cast them both? or if you were going to cast them both you either embrace the similarities, or you trust in the actors to make them different.

they did neither.

they placed the elephant of aeryn and crichton into the room and then tried to tell all of us that it was a coffeetable

and mocked us when we called a pachyderm a pachyderm

LOL! Wonderful!

Yeah see this is how I feel too.
I was a passionate SG-1 fan. I was ready to eat up anything Stargate. I went to much trouble to search out the show in syndication S1-S5. I would stay up any time of day or night because I didn’t trust my VCR to get it right. I then found out about the DVDs and bought my first DVD player just for the Stargate DVDs (yes I only had a VCR until that point). I then loaned out my DVDs to people who had never even heard of the show and got them hooked and by talking about it at work I found there were a few other people like me that loved it.

I was thrilled when I found out it was coming to Scifi. I was miffed that Daniel had left though. I watched S6 with skepticism but still had a great time (only after I bought the DVDs and rewatched did I really realize what a good season that was...lots of team after an initial Jonas push). Turned out MS was still "present" in the SG universe and I was very happy he was coming back in S7. They promised S7 to be the "best season ever"...well it wasn’t but there were still some outstanding eps there that kept me hooked. I thought the show rebounded in S8 (as it got away from some of the ship) though still not as awesome as S1-S6. And at the beginning of S9 I was still talking up the show and was very happy...first couple of eps I made every excuse for, they were OK as TPTB bided the time and got Carter back............except that’s not what they were doing is it. They weren’t just biding their time they were destroying and recreating the Stargate universe, that awesome beautiful Stargate universe, in RCC image. The destruction promised by Anubis could not have been worse.

So Atlantis starts in S8 of SG-1 so of course watching it was a requirement because it was Stargate. I actually had a little fear THAT show may ruin Stargate though as I was initially couldn’t imagine the McKay character (as he had been in SG-1) being someone I wanted in my house week to week. However the execution worked and I thought they had one of the stronger Season 1 of any scifi series. As scifi series (especially sequels) can start off slow and cheesy until they get their feet and the actors get comfortable (DH was already quite comfortable with McKay though so that helped). So then I am hooked on Atlantis.

So back we go to S9 of SG-1 and S2 of Atlantis. Both shows undergo changes. SGA did it MUCH better, integrating Ronan into the show where SG-1 just slammed Cam and Vala in your face and discarded SG-1. However my growing disgust for SG-1 did bleed over into my enjoyment of Atlantis. By S10 I started to actively avoid SG-1 so I could try to enjoy Atlantis. SG-1 cancellation was a relief to me (I admit it, though I didn’t actively campaign for it). I am starting to enjoy Atlantis a little more this year but still, I just cant get over the feeling that TPTB are setting me up for a really really good kick in the gut (and not in the good drama way .... more like in the Cincinnati Bengal’s we will try to get better but we really have no intention of doing so and will always suck kind of way).

I really really want to give myself over to Atlantis the way I did with classic SG-1. To suspend all belief and just be completely pulled into the show. I want to go to work giddy and spam goofy IM quotes to all those associates I know who (used to) watch the show....good times, good times.

You know I still use MAGNETS for my answer for everything. Nintendo’s gets used as an excuse too....and of course I always want Pie or cake. A host of little things that hardly anyone understands (even those who I know who watch forget). It’s fading though, until I catch a classic ep here and there (I really need to get my DVDs out). This last ep of Atlantis had me pretty happy and quoting to the ONE person I work with that still watches every week (everyone else now says, "oh I forgot it was on" or "it’s on my DVR I just haven’t watched it yet") .

What did TPTB do to Stargate? Why? What possible benefit came from this? Most farscape fans except for the die hard actor fans, or those who liked both shows to begin with never even freaking cared. Their attempt to attract that fan base killed a fan base that kept them on the air for 8 years. Why? I just don’t understand, there was no logical reason and that’s what makes things so much worse. There are soooo many other ways they could have done it. Hell they still could have had BB and CB and done it in a way that respected Classic Stargate and its fans...but they choose otherwise and received the cancellation they richly deserved. Have they learned their lesson? SGA will tell us, not the crpy movies...and god I hope SGU never sees the light of day, not for several years when people can step back and some classic fans become decision makers for the show.

OK, see I was just going to agree but I spiraled into yet another rant...why does THAT happen?

Great post, sorry I can rep you either!

I think it's a stupidity to replace one great actor with another great actor, just like that - It is much more profitable to replace a great character with another great character! I mean who watches a show just because it's with a known actor? Ok I admit I'll give it a go I'll watch a couple of episodes, but if the show stinks or if I just simply don't like it I won't continue watching just because my favorite actor is in it. Case in point AT with Void and recently Sanctuary - she's a great actress, but I simply don't like her in these 2 shows - or more accurately I don't like her character.
Bottom line - In S9-10 TPTB replaced actors when they should have been thinking to replace characters and story-arcs with something of the same caliber...
/end rant

Love that statement!

it wasn't jsut the replacing, at least to me. it was the attitude of TPTB. Ok, i will freely admit that they get a lot of crud. they get criticized and ragged on and, quite often, are the recipients of much nastiness.

but when i have a member of TPTB dismiss me and my opinion as 'folks with issues', or have someone call those that don't like the new direction 'stupid' and even with atlantis have a show runner that mocks those that don't like teh show....guys, i know you get a lot of crud, but you are supposed to be the professionals. mocking fans isn't very professional. certainly hold your opinions, but do you HAVE to make them public?

the sympathy i felt when the show was cancelled was for the actors and the lower level cast and crew who were now out of work. didn't feel much for the folks in the driver's seat. they made their bed, they can lie in it. it's just unfortunate that they took a few hundred folks along for the ride

[Jackie]

I believe she was pregnant so that's why she was very pregnant at Dragon Con which was Aug and those promo's were taken in June I believe.

To stay on topic I hated what Cam and Teal'c were doing in Company of Thieves those scenes were awful felt bad for BB and CJ

Topic? Can only beat the dead horse so much ya know.

[suse]

Well, "in Coop's defense" Amanda didn't want Sam/Cam ship so poor, old Coop simply didn't know what to do with her character

How is that a defense for Coop?

In other words he just doesn't know how to write a woman who isn't attached to a man to make her interesting? That's...depressing. And *in*defensible for a writer with as much experience as he has.

suse

[astrogeologist]

because, i guess, tehy just can't wrap their minds around

successful woman
fun woman

all being in the same body.

seriously, as much as i like sam and jack ship as an element of the show, teh way it has been handled has just been poor. poop or get off the pot boys. you can't build this relationship up and then just ignore it cause 'dang, once we recolve it what will we do then?????'

they tick ship fans off by not resolvinig it in any way. they tick non-ship fans off when they DO mention it. Sam, once jack was written out of the show....man, coop really had no idea what so ever to do with her if he couldn't play the 'ooh, ship' card.

he had no idea what to do with vala if he couldn't play up the sex appeal. every time she tried to be something more he demoted that in favor of yuk-yuk jokes and potty humor.

the potential for vala was tremendous. after almsot 10 years we could finally address the ex-host aspect that they've ignored with sam. we could finally see the other side of the coin, that all goa'uld aren't horrible and mean and that there are and were 'innocent bystanders' that were caught up in the tau'ri/goa'uld war.

we could have had so much. but it seems that - under coop's leadership - women are nothing more than accesories for the males and are completely disposible once their 'hewos' are gone

consciously or not, he seems to have a mental image of women as subordinant, weak, good for nothing more than sex and jokes, and nothing more than half of a male

... less than half actually... considerably less than half... rather more of an optional accessory that exists only at the deign of the male...

[silkie]

According to AT's most recent interview, the second movie is supposedly going to set the tone for any subsequent movies. She described Continuum as "Classic SG-1" and seemed to think that any future movies would be more of the same. I think it might be a good one since it was written by Brad Wright and has little to nothing to do with the Ori. I guess we'll see.

The rumor right now is that BW is writing the potential third movie and has talked to RDA about playing a larger role in it (if it's greenlit that is). I think MGM is waiting to see how the AoT does before ordering more movies. It also really sounds like they are going to put the Ori story line to bed permanently. Everyone has been saying that the movie "ties up the Ori story." They even broke up all the sets from the movie and have begun selling off props and costumes at Legends. We can only hope.

I wonder what RCC is up to now. If BW is working on developing a story for the next movie, and JM and PM are in charge of Atlantis, does that mean RCC is the main person working on Stargate Universe?

I really hope MGM won't make the decision of future movies based on AoT alone. I don't think Bori will do that good...

[Garth Claw]

personally my only real problem with the story arc is that everything happening to quickly, in under a year (beginning of series 9 to Camelot) the Ori have managed to build four state of the art warships, turn simple farmer etc into effective combat troops and pilots (against the Jaffa in series 10). Then in series 10 they have managed to cripple the Free Jaffa nation, occupy a large number of planets (some with billions of people, Langara/Hebridan) lost one ship and two armies, and yet they still keep coming.

When are they going to run out of resources?

Also why in series 10 can we know beam through raised shields?

[scifithinker]

And I imagine that it would be sexual harassment for a general to mock a junior officer for a cheap 'wink/wink/nudge/nudge' joke - there's an idea, Landry gets hauled over the coals for sexual harassment, booted out of the SGC (let's face it, if it came down to a choice between him and Sam, who do you think Homeworld Security would be more willing to lose?) and the SGC gets a leader who has something vaguely resembling common sense.

I do not consider sexual harassment amusing. That's the basis of all I hated about Vala in season nine. Then I couldn't believe that no one called her on it. I laughed at just one of her sexually suggestive comments, the one she made in the meeting with the high muckity-mucks about using big ships to compensate for other shortcomings. Notice how it wasn't aimed at Daniel.

Landry's comment to Carter was unacceptable. Period. But I disliked Carter's response as well. Landry was implying a physical relationship, so why wasn't her answer "No, Sir," "You've misunderstood, Sir," or something similar. She's never been a shrinking violet.

Oh, yeah, it's that consistency thing again.

[Skydiver]

Also why in series 10 can we know beam through raised shields?

Personaly? because it made the story work

throughout s9 adn 10 there are multiple instances of 'rewriting' the past to make a story work. Basically, in my opinion, they didn't pay much attention to details as they cranked out stories.

beaming through shields for one example

ba'al's clones for another....he cloned them one earth right? they already established in Nightwalkers that there's no naqahdah on earth, cloned goa'ulds dont have naqahdah on them, you need naqahdah to work goa'uld stuff (established in various episodes) yet ba'al's goaulds are not only clones of BOTH snake and host, but they also have naqahdah in thier blood because tehy can change their voices adn use goa'uld weapons.

and if they didn't have naqahdah in their blood...well all it'd take is a run by sam or vala or possibly teal'c all of whom can sense naqahdah and they'd know who the 'master copy' was and who the clone was.

but oops, let's ignore that cause it's sooooo much cooler to have 24 ba'al's running around

it's that flagrant disregard for show canon that's ticked off many a fan

[jckfan55]

I do not consider sexual harassment amusing. That's the basis of all I hated about Vala in season nine. Then I couldn't believe that no one called her on it. I laughed at just one of her sexually suggestive comments, the one she made in the meeting with the high muckity-mucks about using big ships to compensate for other shortcomings. Notice how it wasn't aimed at Daniel.

Landry's comment to Carter was unacceptable. Period. But I disliked Carter's response as well. Landry was implying a physical relationship, so why wasn't her answer "No, Sir," "You've misunderstood, Sir," or something similar. She's never been a shrinking violet.

Yes, exactly. That should have been Carter's response if they insisted on making Landry so prurient. And Lam was just as bad. But of course Sam giving him a what the H***?! look wouldn't have been *funny.*
They couldn't have made Landry look worse if they had set out to make him a jerky new CO.