Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread

[leiasky]

Spoiler:

I think there are a lot of very sensible (if frustrating) reasons why they've been vague since the end of S8. One is respect for the military, because let's face it Sam and Jack walked a very fine line the whole time they were both on SG1 and are almost certainly being discreet with their relationship in deference to the fact that they did serve together for so long (and presumably don't want any suspicion that there was anything inappropriate when they were) and may be having to be careful of chain of command issues. As Rachel has posted before (in an excellent summary), we don't know what their situation currently is with regard to the regs. It may be slightly grey - not that I'm suggesting their relationship is inappropriate, because Sam and Jack are nothing if not people of honour, and wouldn't blatantly flout, but they may be taking advantage of loopholes, favour or a loose command structure up to HWS, for example (all of which are possible from what we've seen onscreen). Two is for narrative reasons - makes sense to keep their options open, and maybe TPTB haven't pinned down all the hows and whys of the situation - why write themselves into a corner if they don't need to? So to me it makes perfect sense that they've gone for the option they have, of dropping hints and portraying Sam and Jack in a couply way when on screen together (as we've discussed not so long ago with regard to The Shroud and Continuum) - basically operating on and portraying the assumption that Sam and Jack are together and have been since Threads, without having to spend a lot of time and effort explaining all the details when the narrative we see onscreen doesn't either have time or need for it. As Aveo said, a TV episode only ever gives glimpses into their lives! This is not to say I wouldn't have liked to have seen more, but I can understand that in the context of the show post S8 it wasn't the time or the place and am happy with what we got. Movie 3 may well be the time and the place, and I have a feeling that confirmation is exactly what we're going to get but probably not much more - that the conclusions we have drawn are correct and they are and have been together. But even there more details will almost certainly get sacrificed to the wider story.

Spoilered for space.

You put that far more succinctly than I ever could. I couldn't agree with you more! And I GREENIED you too!

[elbarta]

**would really join the conversation about Jack's reason to retire and everything else, but has to study... a lot**

OT - again- Health:

Spoiler:

I just came back from my volleyball training and had a collision with a friend of mine...I'm like 5 feet tall and she is 6... so, from what the coach said and my pain I probably have a couple of cracked ribs!! ...doh... ouch...second time in a year!! That has to be a record...**for someone who isn't beaten up regularly..see SG.1

OT sports

Spoiler:

And who said volleyball wasn't dangerous!? Between cracked ribs, fingers, burned knees... we are warrior! I love this sport!

*would like to join every conversations and have my work done*

(we can wish right?)

CONGRATS TO MILESTONES
AND WELCOME TO NEWBIES
AND HAPPYBIRTH TO THOSE I MISSED!!!

[DominaTemporis]

Ah, ... the trail is getting warmer. Those may be the episodes I was thinking of. Not totally sure there's another one, but there may be.

I seem to recall another one too... maybe s6... don't remember well... but I know I watched one of those eps recently (so you can avoid checking on the s7 box... I haven't seen that season in ages..)... Thinking (instead of studying... bad girl!)!

Any re the OT - my sympathies about the injury. I've been there, and it hurts! (I fractured my tailbone on one occasionand not long later managed to fracture a few ribs - was very painful for a long time.)

OT:

Spoiler:

ohh... I know it hurts... been there on March... two broken ribs after almost falling off a cliff while snowboarding ... very painful! But hey... things happen... A coupla more weeks and I should be good... **hugs her box of painkillers and her parents - both doctors!!-**

EDIT: Yes!!! Warriors... unlucky warriors... *ouch*

EDIT2:

Naw, just fanfic...

... sigh

[Blacky Kitten]

People!!!!! Tell me, have i missed something or not, please!!!

Welcome GraceONeill!!!

and every other newbie i haven't met

Night!

[trinity3]

Hi everyone. Great in depth discussions going on here.

Check this out (spoilers for size and SGA S516 Brainstorm)

Further spoilers for Atlantis S5

Spoiler:

It seems McKeller fans got everything in a little more than a season, while we've been given the finger for 12 years!

1. "The Last Man" - a possible future where Rodney and Keller were married (Sam/Jack never got that! In "2010" Sam/Joe were married and in "Unending" Sam/Teal'c were an item or at the very best Sam was all alone)

2. "Shrine" Rodney's "I love you!" -Pleeeeease, all we got is a "care" and an "Always" - which imho proved to be a lie on Jack's part

3. 517 "Infection" Atlantis's version of Broca Divide with Keller instead of Sam

Makes me wish JM was in charge of the 3rd SG-1 movie instead of Brad (wait I just realized that Brad wrote "Shrine"... hmmm that's interesting... maybe he's not anti ship, just doesn't give a frak about S/J (based on Continuum); what I'm really pissed off is that they had no intention of resolving it in Continuum which could have been their last chance if the DVD movies would have bombed....)

You remind me of a post I made after the "intentions" scene between McKay and Ronan. I agree, those shippers have it sooooo easy now.

Which you manage to do nonetheless.
I'm not talking about Jack in S7-8 when the war with the Goaul'd+Replicators was at its high, but after Threads: He promised her he'd always be there for her yet he upped and went to Washington abandoning her - he wasn't there for her in "Camelot/""Flesh and Blood", "Line in The Sand", "the Road not taken", "Unending"; I'm not even going to mention Atlantis... So while Pete was willing to make sacrifices regarding his job, possibly his friends in Denver in order to be with Sam, Jack and Sam aren't willing to do the same to be together Heck if we take Kerry's words literally "Is the AF the only thing keeping you apart? Retire you idiot!", since Jack didn't retire what can we infer from that? All in all the way this ship was conducted post-Threads makes me feel there's no way TPTB can resolve it to my satisfaction... Hope BW might prove me wrong in the next movie though...

Well, just my opinion, always didn't mean professionally, always between them means something far more personal.

Besides with the so much happening behind the scenes with the rogue NID and the like, with Hammond moving out, I can see Jack wanting to make sure that one of them was in a position to make a good call if it came down to decision regarding the SGC, again IMHO.

Hehehe. That's how the third movie can open...

Spoiler:

Jack's office in Washington, seen first person from behind the desk. Penguins start to pour through the door, filling the room, silently standing staring at him. He pulls back the drapes - hundreds more penguins heading his way outside...

The desk phone starts to ring, he answers it... And finds himself grabbing his bedside phone, having just woken from a nightmare.

"Uh?" he grunts, half awake.

Voice: "General? Is that you? There's a problem at the SGC..."

Jack rolls over, disturbing Sam whose curled against his back. He thrusts the phone at her. "It's for you."

Yes, I know it calls back to Threads. That's the point

**shippy sigh** Jenn, I wish TPTB would hire you. **sigh**

Bravo on the bolded part. I think that Sam was just at a point in her life where she needed someone to love her. Post Grace, when she needed that peice... love as it were to try and make herself... well... the Sam she wanted/needed to be.

Yes, yes, yes!

Oh Jennifer! That would be perfection!

Mads!!!! You're back!!! ***big hug*** Great to see you.

And that's probably what Fifth saw when he was probing her mind. YEAH, I think we can add Fifth to the list of CREEPY and I don't know how much more stalkerish you can get than sticking your hand into someone's head... But what he saw is her desire to be cherished, to be put before a JOB, no matter what the job was. And I think it's probably one of those deep dark wants, not something that she'd admit to even herself at that point, but it's there, because what scenario did Fifth pick in New Order? Sam and PETE on a farm, where they were because Pete had *given up his job* and his *life* in order to take her away somewhere that would be better for *her*.

Good point

Goooood morning shippers...

On Pete, Jack, and confirmation (and peguins)...

Pete was definitely what Sam "wanted" - did anyone ever watch Gilmore Girls? There's a line that Lorelei gives Chris (during the last and worst season ever) - she tells him "You're the one I want to want." Sam wants to want Pete. He's sweet (if slightly stalkerish), funny (if slightly goofy), and good-looking (if sort of spud-ish). He makes her a priority, he's available for her. Jack on the other hand is her CO, stand-offish, and comes with a whole slew of problems. I think this is why Fifth latched onto Pete - he read what she 'wanted to want'.

Very well said

I think she would have, too, but... wouldn't that have made a fantastic ep?

Yes I agree because while Sam wants to want Pete, she is in effect trying desparately not to want Jack.

So waking up in New Order 2, on a farm with Jack, now that's the stuff dreams are made of, and would have made a cool ep. cause even if she had seen flaws in Replicator Jack , everything inside her would have wanted to ignore them and just let this be real, even for a little while.

Great job guys. Keep the discussions coming.

[josiane]

Hey Kitten! Don't think you've missed anything big, don't worry Just more of the usual But if you didn't know already, Joe is taking questions for Brad Wright on his blog and lots of shippers have already asked him nicely about confirmation, the romantic scene and penguins Oh, and this week's ep of the week is 'Sacrifices'.

Think that's it

[DutchIndeed]

I'm very curious whether or not Brad will answer anything Shippy! The last Q&A I didn't expect it and he did, this time I have hope...

Hey Kitten! Don't think you've missed anything big, don't worry Just more of the usual But if you didn't know already, Joe is taking questions for Brad Wright on his blog and lots of shippers have already asked him nicely about confirmation, the romantic scene and penguins Oh, and this week's ep of the week is 'Sacrifices'.

Think that's it

Mmm... I disagree. I think Ship is always something big. Therefore, if one would miss much Ship, one would miss a lot of big things...

Shipping is serious stuff, you know

[JenniferJF]

Well, just my opinion, always didn't mean professionally, always between them means something far more personal.

Well said. Because I think Jack's biggest realization in Threads was, in fact, that it was personally that Sam needed him at that point, not professionally. For years they'd sacrificed the possibility of a personal relationship for their professional one, and the whole thing with Sam afraid to approach Jack was that, at that point, she wasn't even sure if he wanted a personal relationship with her anymore. Of any kind.

And obviously, she's thanking him for being with her there as Jacob is dying is thanking him for being there for her personally, so his "Always" must be personal in nature. Letting her know he does still care for her in outside of the professional.

The irony for them, though, is that to be together personally, they can't be together professionally. Which means, unless he retires, they're almost certainly destined to have a long distance relationship given their respective ranks. So, in effect, the further they are from each other physically most of the time, the closer they're likely to be physically when together .

[trinity3]

Well said. Because I think Jack's biggest realization in Threads was, in fact, that it was personally that Sam needed him at that point, not professionally. For years they'd sacrificed the possibility of a personal relationship for their professional one, and the whole thing with Sam afraid to approach Jack was that, at that point, she wasn't even sure if he wanted a personal relationship with her anymore. Of any kind.

And obviously, she's thanking him for being with her there as Jacob is dying is thanking him for being there for her personally, so his "Always" must be personal in nature. Letting her know he does still care for her in outside of the professional.

The irony for them, though, is that to be together personally, they can't be together professionally. Which means, unless he retires, they're almost certainly destined to have a long distance relationship given their respective ranks. So, in effect, the further they are from each other physically most of the time, the closer they're likely to be physically when together .

Agreed.

[VSS]

LMAO... You've been reading too many fics; afaic on the show Jack has never offered to quit his job (even for Sam)...

Well, he would have quit his job for somebody, because that's what he says in Affinity.
People can debate all day exactly who he was referring to when he said, "I wouldn't be here." (I think he means Sam- the music alone is a dead giveaway there ). But, in the end, he clearly means he wouldn't be at the SGC if there were someone very important waiting for him at home.

But Sam isn't waiting for him at home. The scene of her taking a big deep breath when she sees that house in Threads isn't just because it's Pete's house. It's also because it's Pete's house. So really, the motivation for Jack to retire just isn't there. Why would he when Sam's still running all over the galaxy? I imagine that he feels a lot better just being in the loop and doing what he can to make sure things go well for her and for everyone else.

That's assuming that the regs are no longer an insurmountable issue, which they shouldn't be but might be in the minds of TPTB. If the regs are still paramount, then I can't really believe they're together in any meaningful way, and that's pretty heartbreaking if you ask me. So I hope that's not how BW ends up writing it.

[VSS]

Now who's painting

Honestly you can't look at Sam and Jack's relationship as being black and white, which you seem intent on doing and so be it. "He upped and went to Washington"? Rick left the show to be with his family! So where on earth was Jack supposed to go?

You talk about sacrifices and how Sam and Jack aren't willing to do the same to be with each other. Your issue is tptb and their lack of mentioning Jack over the years, and I honestly get that. It's upsetting to have a well known and loved character leave, and perhaps not be mentioned as much as you liked. But the show moved on, and in television you can't live in the past, so the focus had to be on the still regular characters. But it doesn't mean that the hints we've been given since - regardless of whether you want or care about the subtle or not - don't point to Sam and Jack being in a relationship now.

It's not about the regs. There's a much deeper level to Jack's being okay about leaving it in the room for instance, that has everything to do with his own history, his own broken-ness and very little to do with the fact they're in the same CoC. Jack's retiring has absolutely nothing to do with Jack and Sam's ability to be together in a relationship. In reality there are married personnel in the military who find themselves working together because they have the necessary skills to be in that position. So logically, there has to be much more to Sam and Jack. Their own personal demons kept them apart, but by Threads, they've both let that go and they're willing to not let the regs be that pretend barrier between them.

I find it really difficult when someone says Jack has to retire and then they can be together because then the moments, the little beats, the subtle hints we've been given about Jack and about Sam since S9 began, make absolutely no sense. All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best. If Jack said "Always" and meant it and they went fishing and we can believe that that was at least the start of their "togetherness", why over-complicate it? Unless it's deliberately to provoke people into questioning their belief that they are together now.

Very well-put. Green for you.

[JenniferJF]

That's assuming that the regs are no longer an insurmountable issue, which they shouldn't be but might be in the minds of TPTB. If the regs are still paramount, then I can't really believe they're together in any meaningful way, and that's pretty heartbreaking if you ask me. So I hope that's not how BW ends up writing it.

I think TPTB must not view the regs as being an insurmountable obstacle anymore. That was, it seems to me, the whole point of Threads. That Sam and Jack, somehow and someway, were no longer going to let the regs be an issue. Sam because of what Jacob told her (which backs up what Replicarter also said), and Jack because I don't think that was ever really the issue for him, anways. And Sam's attitude alone clearly shows, to me, that deciding not to let the regs control them doesn't simply mean an agreement and a waiting pattern. She hasn't seemed 'regretful' enough in any of her near death experiences to suggest she's put off resolution, just for starters. Kerry's suggestion about retiring was, after all, just a suggestion, and who knows what other arrangements were possible.

Plus, in the way chains-of-command and the military work, given the current ambiguity of HWS and the SGC, the regs wouldn't HAVE to be.. and I can't imagine Sam and Jack not arranging things with the president so they wouldn't be. After all, Jack was due a 'list' of requests based on his service and, really, relative importance to the program (as was Sam, remember her leverage in New Order?), and we know from episodes like Learning Curve the risks Jack's willing to take for the happiness of one individual, so I can't imagine - if it came to it - that he wouldn't be willing to take similar risks for Sam's. So, basically, having seen them make the decision to get beyond the regs in Threads, and given both their positions and ability and shown willingness to use their influence when necessary for personal reasons, I can't think of a possible rational reason they wouldn't have arranged something which would allow them to be together personally out of the changes made post-Threads. So for the writers to suddenly say, "The regs are an issue" would be to go back on what they themselves have written about the characters' growth and influence.

Which doesn't, however, mean that a lot of fans and casual viewers who missed those subtle character points, and completely fail to understand the regs, wouldn't be confused if the regs suddenly appeared unimportant. And I'm not sure all this can be explained to those who don't already understand it in a concise way. Which is why I think exactly what happened when for Sam and Jack is likely to remain ambiguous. Not sure how this will work, but it just wouldn't surprise me... This would also make BW's words about, "If you want to imagine they're together, imagine they're together" (to paraphrase) absolutely correct now and into the future.

Plus, really, if he'd planned on making the regs still important, I suspect he'd have taken that chance to start 'breaking it to us gently'. Which he didn't...


Hmmm.. lots of babble, little substance. My difficulty in explaining this, though, sorta shows how hard it would be for TPTB to explain it for an 1.5 hour DVD movie

[Nynaeve506]

I'm definitely looking forward to the third movie and I'm definitely rooting for confirmation

I choose to be optimistic and think that S/J have been together in some capacity for the last two years. I just can't believe that "Threads" would happen and then they'd just walk away from each other. I can see it being "complicated" (per the deleted scene in "Trio") as in - they've acknowledged they care about each other, want to pursue something, and yet, they find themselves trying to do long distance. I guess I would imagine that they get together when she's home, send each other e-mails, but maybe put off talking more seriously until they're in a more permanent situation... like now. I'd love if they were married already, but I don't think it's that far yet. Although they know each other very well, being in a relationship is very different from being colleagues. I can imagine that there's both a passion that drives them and a caution that makes them want to make sure they don't burn each other - so I would say they're "seeing each other" every spare moment they can grab trying to get to know each other on a different, unique level...

But I reiterate that I totally would love it if they were

Spoiler:

SO MARRIED!!!

[JenniferJF]

Echo... Echo...

Cap time. Spoilered cause non-plot specific Continuum pic:

Spoiler:

[Seahen]

*wanders onto thread*
*starts shaking in fear she has to explain the regs and Sam/Jack's current situation*
*...again...*
*jumps for joy that things seemed to have settled themselves*



Just kidding, great discussion. Wish I had something meaningful to add. Nope. Got nothing.