Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[selene0789]

I do think, however, that he would question them in the beginning about it--I think he'd believe that Sam was selling herself short. He's not Jack's hugest fan in the beginning, and even seems to feel a little superior to O'Neill. I think he'd wonder why Sam wasn't going for someone less brawny and more brainy.

I think what was being addressed here-- and I could be totally wrong-- is that despite the obvious bond between the two men, and the mutual respect, there is a sort of antagonism going on between the two. And while at the very beginning of the series Jack and Daniel would trust each other with their lives and do so on a regular basis, they aren't quite best friends yet. They rib each other on a regular basis, and its only as time goes on that it comes to be truly on a good-natured-teasing basis. In the beginning, I felt it was born of a true impatience for each other's respectful field of expertise.

But philosophy aside, I agree that in the beginning Daniel didn't quite know how to reconcile the two halves of Sam's profession. In his defense, when they first meet she's in full geek mode, so it's understandable that it takes him a while to fully embrace the fact that Sam is a fully capable combat veteran and officer, besides the science. Which leads into the understanding that he might initially have thought it strange that she would be attracted towards a man who was more violence than science.

And also, I can conceive the possibility that Daniel might have been genuinely stunned when he saw the two of them in "There but for the Grace of God", since his Jack had declared on multiple occasions that he absolutely detests (most) scientists. So I can understand his shock when Jack's all "C'mere"-hugging to the queen of scientists-- and she's not even military to balance out the geek in her.

However, though Daniel is not the "First Shipper", he is a shipper, so he, like all of us, quickly warmed to the fact that the two of them are absolutely perfect together and no reality is complete without them as a ship.

[hlndncr]

I do agree that Daniel was totally shocked by AU Jack and Sam being engaged in There But for the Grace of God. So much so that it was one of the things he considered a noteable difference between realities when Sam asked about it.

I think that might have been when the idea of Sam and Jack together was first really planted in Daniel's mind. I don't think he saw it in our reality at that point because I think Sam and Jack were still just beginning to recognize their connection. But I think it would have been something that stuck in his mind later on when he saw things like Sam rewriting the laws of physics to save Jack in A Hundred Days or Jack volunteering to have his brain fried in Divide and Conquer because it might save Sam.

[UhSir]

I've always viewed their relationship in the beginning as mutual tolerance at best. I don't think that they become the friends until later in the series. I think that they respect each other initially, but I don't see them as great friends for several years.

I see it this way too. "Tolerance" is a very good way to describe it.

[Akamaimom]

I think what was being addressed here-- and I could be totally wrong-- is that despite the obvious bond between the two men, and the mutual respect, there is a sort of antagonism going on between the two. And while at the very beginning of the series Jack and Daniel would trust each other with their lives and do so on a regular basis, they aren't quite best friends yet. They rib each other on a regular basis, and its only as time goes on that it comes to be truly on a good-natured-teasing basis. In the beginning, I felt it was born of a true impatience for each other's respectful field of expertise.

But philosophy aside, I agree that in the beginning Daniel didn't quite know how to reconcile the two halves of Sam's profession. In his defense, when they first meet she's in full geek mode, so it's understandable that it takes him a while to fully embrace the fact that Sam is a fully capable combat veteran and officer, besides the science. Which leads into the understanding that he might initially have thought it strange that she would be attracted towards a man who was more violence than science.

And also, I can conceive the possibility that Daniel might have been genuinely stunned when he saw the two of them in "There but for the Grace of God", since his Jack had declared on multiple occasions that he absolutely detests (most) scientists. So I can understand his shock when Jack's all "C'mere"-hugging to the queen of scientists-- and she's not even military to balance out the geek in her.

However, though Daniel is not the "First Shipper", he is a shipper, so he, like all of us, quickly warmed to the fact that the two of them are absolutely perfect together and no reality is complete without them as a ship.

Exactly. This is what I would have typed had I not been typing while trying to rock a baby to sleep.

I just don't see them as being best buds immediately, and I think that Jack kind of resents Daniel for staying on Abydos, when it ultimately led to Jack's having to answer some fairly nasty questions later on. Also, I've been watching the first few seasons again, and while they treat each other as colleagues, and Daniel actually stays at Jack's house when he first gets back to Earth, there is very little there to show a true and abiding friendship. Later on, there is--absolutely. But not initially.

Of course, this is my opinion, but juxtapose Jack's treatment of Kawalsky with how he relates to Daniel. Totally different relationships. In the end there is nobody that Jack would take over Daniel (except maybe Sam), but in the beginning, I think Jack tolerates Daniel because he needs him, and recognizes his value as a team member. I think he also relates to Daniel in wanting to bring his wife home and salvage that relationship--but I see little true friendship.

[hlndncr]

Exactly. This is what I would have typed had I not been typing while trying to rock a baby to sleep.

I just don't see them as being best buds immediately, and I think that Jack kind of resents Daniel for staying on Abydos, when it ultimately led to Jack's having to answer some fairly nasty questions later on. Also, I've been watching the first few seasons again, and while they treat each other as colleagues, and Daniel actually stays at Jack's house when he first gets back to Earth, there is very little there to show a true and abiding friendship. Later on, there is--absolutely. But not initially.

Of course, this is my opinion, but juxtapose Jack's treatment of Kawalsky with how he relates to Daniel. Totally different relationships. In the end there is nobody that Jack would take over Daniel (except maybe Sam), but in the beginning, I think Jack tolerates Daniel because he needs him, and recognizes his value as a team member. I think he also relates to Daniel in wanting to bring his wife home and salvage that relationship--but I see little true friendship.

Well I don't think comparing Jack's relationship with Daniel in CotG and Enemy Within to his relationship with Kawalsky at that time is really a fair comparison since Jack and Kawalsky had known each other for more than 10 years at that point and had served together on a number of dangerous missions (if Gamekeeper is to be believed). Whereas Jack and Daniel had only known each other for a very short time and been through only two, albeit life-changing, missions together.

I see no antagonism between them after their talk in the cave on Abydos toward the end of the movie and I never saw any resentment over Daniel staying on Abydos. No they aren't "best buds," and I never intended to imply that, but their was a bond of friendship between them. They have their disagreements throughout, as all friends do, but I don't think that changes the fundamental bond that was established early on.

[XFchemist]

I'd love to see AT in TBBT too!!! Sheldon and Sam could discuss a lottttt of techno bubbles!!!
I'll see AT twice this year...now if only I'd have the courage to ask her about that...

[XFchemist]

sorry for the double post, but I was thinking that we should start voting about Valenship date! (especially cuz I feel inspired to make something with PS )

[Nolamom]

I was *just* thinking about Valenship...

[fems]

I don't think Jack and Daniel were best buddies in the pilot (never saw and never will see the movie) but I do think they were friends. After all there are a lot of different kinds of friendship and while some can climb the ranks (or fall down them) over the years and become anything from friendly/tolerated, friend of a friend, "friends", friends friends, friend, good friend, best friends to the best friend (if I was twelve I'd use "BFF" or for those watching Grey's Anatomy they'd become "your person"), others will never become more (or less) than how you started out.

I think that in the beginning Kawalsky would probably have been Jack's best friend (as far as we know) and according to Gamekeeper they'd known each other at least since 1982. And in the Final Cut version of the pilot the part about Kawalsky not knowing Jack had a son was cut because Jack had named his kid after him and it would be strange if Kawalsky wouldn't have known about the boy's existence in that case.

I also never got the impression Jack resented Daniel for staying on Abydos, if anything I think he didn't like the idea of having to take Daniel back to Earth after seeing how he'd settled in on Abydos.

What I do think was an issue is that while they were friends they couldn't be friends when in the field; Jack then became the CO and Daniel had to follow his orders, which didn't always go as planned... Jack probably didn't want Daniel on his team because he was a civilian (and a friend) and he'd only be one more six to watch - not to rely on - when in danger, but he also wanted to help Daniel get Sha're and Skaara back and probably recognized that Daniel being able to communicate with some aliens and read several alien languages was beneficial to the mission.

Yeah, there might have been antagonism but only because Jack and Daniel have different passions when it comes to their work; Jack doesn't need to know everything in the field he just needs to know what it means for them at that moment, while Daniel loves to theorize, speculate and elaborate on the history of things that eventually leads to a translation or something. As a civilian Daniel just didn't seem to get that Jack wasn't being personal when snapping at him (or Sam for that matter) but that in order to keep everyone safe and complete the mission Jack only needed to know the necessary information to make his calls.

If they weren't friends I highly doubt Jack would have taken Daniel home with him and offered him a place to stay (for who knows how long) and tried to reassure him about Sha're and Skaara. Nor would he have talked about Sara and Charlie for that matter. We all know how Jack isn't a touchy-feely kinda guy and he certainly doesn't willingly share personal information.

[hlndncr]

sorry for the double post, but I was thinking that we should start voting about Valenship date! (especially cuz I feel inspired to make something with PS )

Does this mean you're volunteering to make the Valenship invites?

[hlndncr]

Since it has been demanded and we are about a month out here are the possible dates for Valenship this year (all are a Saturday):

February 4
February 11
February 18 (1)
February 25

Just FYI, Valentine's Day is on Tuesday, February 14.

Please pick only one. Voting will stay open until Tuesday, January 10.

[hlndncr]

I'd love to see AT in TBBT too!!! Sheldon and Sam could discuss a lottttt of techno bubbles!!!
I'll see AT twice this year...now if only I'd have the courage to ask her about that...

You should totally ask her! I bet she would get a kick out of the idea if she's familiar with the show.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Valenship Days

February 4
February 11
February 18 (2)
February 25

[Nynaeve506]

Popping in to weigh in on when Daniel clued in about Jack/Sam...

I've always held that Daniel isn't clueless in the way people think (absent minded obliviousness). In general, he doesn't spend time contemplating the team dynamics and that he generally accepts S/J at face value. He's not present for the za'tarc incident and there's no way he would have found out (Janet would have been circumspect as an USAF officer and Teal'c...well, c'mon, the guy isn't exactly gossip central). While the engagement incident would have been surprising, he wouldn't have automatically transferred that to S/J in our reality, especially if there aren't any overt indications of them having feelings for each other. Daniel isn't stupid, but sometimes can't see the forest for the trees if that makes sense. Teal'c, for example, is a battle seasoned warrior (and commander) - he has to be able to read not only his enemy but all the unspoken dynamics of those under his command so that he can lead and manage effectively. Daniel is an academic who studies history and has, for most of his life, been on the fringe. It hasn't behooved him to spend his time trying to fit in because he doesn't fit in. So for all intents and purposes, he sort of lets life happen around him and he participates when he feels he's needed or when he wants to.

The first time we see Daniel "clue in" as it were, IMO, is in "Grace". See below:

Jack Look #75

Ah, we come the *the* episode. The moment when Sam makes important life decisions while suffering from a concussion. Her decision making could have only been improved by adding vodka... but we're talking about *Jack* here so for your angst-viewing pleasure:

She's missing and they're hunting. Daniel is trying vainly to offer words of comfort. I'm still convinced that this was the moment when Daniel woke up from his nose in the book slumber and began to realize that maybe, just maybe, there was more to Jack and Sam than what was on the surface.

My evidence:

Great confused look there Danny boy.

I lumped all these together because I didn't see these as "separate" expressions but really one long continuous one:

Jack telling Hammond they found nothing.

Later...

And I must include a shot of our first shipper, Teal'c, who I am convinced must reside in the Cavern of Angst because for crying out loud - HE'S SMILING!!! His friend is obviously deeply troubled and his other friend is unaccounted for. Only a deep, deep cavern dweller could *enjoy* that angst:

[XFchemist]

Valenship

February 4
February 11
February 18 (3)
February 25

You should totally ask her! I bet she would get a kick out of the idea if she's familiar with the show.

I wrote the question into the Chevron questions inbox , we'll see if they pick it up