Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Madeleine]

200

Spoiler:

I thought the bit in in the showers was made up. I thought they were just saying stuff to wind Marty up a lot of the time, and in that instance it was probably one of them trying to wind Sam up too.

[Frostfox]

200

Spoiler:

I thought the bit in in the showers was made up. I thought they were just saying stuff to wind Marty up a lot of the time, and in that instance it was probably one of them trying to wind Sam up too.

Yep, you're right, I think,

Spoiler:

but even though it didn't happen, I just didn't get a laugh out of it. Women are harrassed enough, we don't need to make 'entertainment' out of it. And I just don't like to think of her commanding officer spying on her in the showers, even if meant in fun.

FF

[scarimor]

What?

The conduct unbecoming in pair of decorated USAF officers?

Yeah, big time. Plus Jack's constant chasing after her despite the fact that she's not once (not the 'our' Sam, not in 'our' universe) done the same back. (unless you think she was going to ask him to marry her in Threads, which I find so far-fetched, lol. The only thing she wanted in that episode was for his "thing" over her to be sorted out and done with, imo. And everything that's (not) happened since, i.e. her total disinterest, supports that).

200

Spoiler:

I thought the bit in in the showers was made up. I thought they were just saying stuff to wind Marty up a lot of the time, and in that instance it was probably one of them trying to wind Sam up too.

Spoiler:

IIRC, the Jack-invisible story was Sam's contribution. Each character brought a story-line example to the table which reflected their take in some way. E.g. Cam-the-double-gun-toting-hero, Vala with her Wizard of Oz effort and then the Farscape angle (lol!). Sam's was the psuedo-science one, trying to bring techno-babble to bear on the "scientific" problem, while her CO leches at her inappropriately and she rolls her eyes at his antics.... *snicker*

[Nikki]

scarimor not liking S/J ship is fair enough. You don't like it so you come here to discuss that and I respect that but I've noticed in a number of your posts you mention that Sam had/has no romantic feelings for Jack. I was just wondering what your take was on 'Grace' and 'Sam/Jack's' conversation in Sam's head.

[scarimor]

scarimor not liking S/J ship is fair enough. You don't like it so you come here to discuss that and I respect that but I've noticed in a number of your posts you mention that Sam had/has no romantic feelings for Jack. I was just wondering what your take was on 'Grace' and 'Sam/Jack's' conversation in Sam's head.

No, I never said "she had/has no romantic feeling for Jack". I think they're both attracted to each other physically, but from Jack's perspective it's more than that, hence his talking about her when she's not there in recent Atlantis episodes. We have never seen an instance of her coming on to him in the way that he comes on to her. She has dealt with the situation with professional calm, despite the fact that he had the more power being the CO.

In the conversation in Grace he is the "safe bet", as her head puts it. There's never going to be anything between them - she knows that, she doesn't want it, she's not in love with him and it's so inappropriate for their situation anyway - but his existence and his clear pursuit of her is the excuse for her not to pursue a relationship she does want, with anyone else. It's tied to her conversation with her Dad in her head, when he tells her she deserves to be happy. He's telling her that her work isn't everything, that she deserves to have more. And very soon after that we see exactly that being played out - she begins her relationship with Pete.

Unfortunately Pete turned out to be unsuitable and she finished it. The danger then was that Jack would see the opening to start pursuing her again. She went round to his house to sort that out once and for all, found Kerry there, and believed it wasn't going to be a problem after all and left. But Kerry knew better, because she'd been watching Jack and knew his heart was elsewhere.

ETA: That said, I'm pretty sure Sam would go for a one night stand with Jack if it wouldn't be professionally innapropriate But she knows that it would be.

[Nikki]

The quotes are parts of the 'Grace' transcript.

O'NEILL: That's what friends are for.

CARTER: Friends?

O'NEILL: Hey. This is you talking here. Might as well be honest.

CARTER: What if I quit the Air Force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?

O'NEILL: I would never ask you to give up your career.

CARTER: Because you don't feel anything for me?

Why does she question 'friends' if her attraction to him is just physical? She offers to quit the AF in order to find out if its an excuse. What else would the AF be an excuse for, other than to pursue a relationship with him? Why would she ask if he had feelings for her if she didn't?

O'NEILL: Carter.

CARTER: I'd let you go right now if I knew.

O'NEILL: That easy?

CARTER: I didn't say it would be easy.

If she has to let go, then it implies she's holding onto him. Has feelings for him.

O'NEILL: Then what's stopping you if you really wanna know?

CARTER: I'm trying.

O'NEILL: Maybe it's not me that's the problem here. Let's face it, I'm not that complex.

CARTER: Me?

O'NEILL: Sam. I'm a safe bet.

CARTER: As long as I'm thinking about you, setting my sights on what I think is unobtainable, there's no chance of being hurt by someone else.

O'NEILL: Jacob was right. You deserve more. I will always be there for you, no matter what. Believe me.

She's thinking about him in the place of her romantic partner that's why no one else can fill that space, which implies more than just physical attraction.

CARTER: So what now?


O'NEILL: Go save your ass.

CARTER: One last thing.

Sam imagines them kissing.

She kisses him. Could be interpreted as only physical attraction but after the above conversation I think it's something more.

[scarimor]

Why does she question 'friends' if her attraction to him is just physical?

Because people who have a physical attraction to each other aren't just "friends", of course. Are you physically attracted to all your friends?

She offers to quit the AF in order to find out if its an excuse.

Yep, an excuse not to have a relationship, not to have a personal life with someone. This is exactly what this and her conversation with her Dad was all about. Quitting the Air Force would mean that he was free to pursue her and she could have him if she wanted. He's the "safe bet" all right - she knows that if she gave him the go ahead he'd come running. But she never has.

If she has to let go, then it implies she's holding onto him. Has feelings for him.

And I didn't say she didn't. Anything from sexual attraction to professional admiration - but if she was in love with him she would quit the Air Force (or he would). And the difference is that she handles the attraction with professional calm and distance. He doesn't. He pursues his attraction to her inappropriately, imo.

However you look at this episode, her attitude since points towards her not wanting to pursue a relationship with him. She went with someone else, and she hasn't shown any interest in him since from what we've seen. (Maybe the shippers are right and Sam and Jack are having it away in secret during her visits to Washington, but I ain't seen it so I won't think about it )

[Frostfox]

Well it's the new show's type of humour !

Yes. I'm not at all sure where they got the idea that Stargate was a comedy. There's always been a streak of humour and a nice sense of not taking themselves too seriously at times, but a comedy? No.

Yep, an excuse not to have a relationship, not to have a personal life with someone. This is exactly what this and her conversation with her Dad was all about. Quitting the Air Force would mean that he was free to pursue her and she could have him if she wanted. He's the "safe bet" all right - she knows that if she gave him the go ahead he'd come running. But she never has.


And I didn't say she didn't. Anything from sexual attraction to professional admiration - but if she was in love with him she would quit the Air Force (or he would). And the difference is that she handles the attraction with professional calm and distance. He doesn't. He pursues his attraction to her inappropriately, imo.

However you look at this episode, her attitude since points towards her not wanting to pursue a relationship with him. She went with someone else, and she hasn't shown any interest in him since from what we've seen. (Maybe the shippers are right and Sam and Jack are having it away in secret during her visits to Washington, but I ain't seen it so I won't think about it )

Mm, your viewing of the romantic tosh on the show is interesting. I've never read the material that way. Next time I watch the show; it's about time I watched it from the beginning again, I'll try to view the mess from that viewpoint, it might make me hate the writers a little less for what I see as the corruption and weakening of Sam; I'd rather lay the blame at Jack's door.

Oh, and Nicci, most, if not all of us who post on this thread can see what the writers were trying (with dogged determination) to show between Sam and her commanding officer, we're not debating that they were trying to write a relationship or potential relationship between them.
We just don't think it was an appropriate, interesting or believable relationship and we dislike the twisting of the characters to use them in a totally unneccesary romance when the mentor/student, CO/2IC relationship was interesting enough on it's own.

Please feel free to correct me on that, ladies and gentlemen of the thread.

FF

[Nikki]

scarimor

Because people who have a physical attraction to each other aren't just "friends", of course. Are you physically attracted to all your friends?

Oh course, I think some of my friends are attractive, but I still see them as friends and nothing more. Just because they're hot/handsome doesn't mean I have to question whether we're friends or something more. I'm not going to think all my friends are ugly.

Yep, an excuse not to have a relationship, not to have a personal life with someone. This is exactly what this and her conversation with her Dad was all about. Quitting the Air Force would mean that he was free to pursue her and she could have him if she wanted. He's the "safe bet" all right - she knows that if she gave him the go ahead he'd come running. But she never has.

She never has because time and time again, we've been shown how important Sam thinks her military career and job at the SGC as a soldier and scientist is.

And I didn't say she didn't. Anything from sexual attraction to professional admiration - but if she was in love with him she would quit the Air Force (or he would). And the difference is that she handles the attraction with professional calm and distance. He doesn't. He pursues his attraction to her inappropriately, imo.

However you look at this episode, her attitude since points towards her not wanting to pursue a relationship with him. She went with someone else, and she hasn't shown any interest in him since from what we've seen. (Maybe the shippers are right and Sam and Jack are having it away in secret during her visits to Washington, but I ain't seen it so I won't think about it )

See above. Jack sees his job/career with the same importance, that's why he didn't quit. I agree with you on one thing about 'Grace' that it was about her trying to move on from Jack - she pretty much said that. But IMO her attitude since 'Grace' does point towards her wanting to pursue a relationship with Jack. IMO, she broke it off with Pete in 'Threads' because she was still in love with Jack and realised she couldn't move on from him and that she'd be lying to herself and Pete if she thought she loved/would be happy with Pete. I think this hit home when Pete bought her that house. Why else would she go to Jack's place straight afterwards?

I know you said this earlier

Unfortunately Pete turned out to be unsuitable and she finished it. The danger then was that Jack would see the opening to start pursuing her again. She went round to his house to sort that out once and for all, found Kerry there, and believed it wasn't going to be a problem after all and left. But Kerry knew better, because she'd been watching Jack and knew his heart was elsewhere.

but she hadn't broken it off with Pete when she went to Jack's place, so this explanation wouldn't make sense.

The next scene is where they share that moment in the isolation room, which IMO confirmed that she couldn't be happy with anyone else other than Jack and so in the next scene she breaks it off with Pete.

However, you are right about one more thing. Throughout the show Jack has shown his feelings for Sam more than she has for him. But I think 'Grace' and 'Threads' show Sam's feelings for Jack very strongly.

Oh, and Nicci, most, if not all of us who post on this thread can see what the writers were trying (with dogged determination) to show between Sam and her commanding officer, we're not debating that they were trying to write a relationship or potential relationship between them.
We just don't think it was an appropriate, interesting or believable relationship and we dislike the twisting of the characters to use them in a totally unneccesary romance when the mentor/student, CO/2IC relationship was interesting enough on it's own.

Please feel free to correct me on that, ladies and gentlemen of the thread.

Oh yeh, don't misunderstand me, I know you guys post here because you don't like S/J ship but I was just interested to see scarimor's perspective on 'Grace', as to me (and to many shippers and antis) it more or less confirmed that Sam had/has romantic feelings for Jack. Its interesting to see that episode from a different perspective. And it's Nikki

However, if this discussion is bothering any antis, I don't mind moving it to PMs.

[Jace021903]

.

...most, if not all of us who post on this thread can see what the writers were trying (with dogged determination) to show between Sam and her commanding officer, we're not debating that they were trying to write a relationship or potential relationship between them.
We just don't think it was an appropriate, interesting or believable relationship and we dislike the twisting of the characters to use them in a totally unneccesary romance when the mentor/student, CO/2IC relationship was interesting enough on it's own.

Please feel free to correct me on that, ladies and gentlemen of the thread.

FF

That's pretty much says it.

[Frostfox]

That's pretty much says it.

Thanks.
It's always quite awkward speaking for an entire thread, I'm sure everyone who posts has their own opinion and their own personal bugbear with the thing. But there aren't many on the thread who would deny it was there.

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
It's just a very loud and ugly duck with no chance in hell of becoming a swan now the series is over.

FF - anyone for roasted duck with plum sauce, I'm a very good cook.

[Madeleine]

I used to be able fine to deny it was there. I got as far as Grace without seeing anything. (AUs and alternate personalities notwithstanding)

After that, things started to go downhill...

[scarimor]

Please feel free to correct me on that, ladies and gentlemen of the thread.

FF

Hammer met nailhead

I used to be able fine to deny it was there. I got as far as Grace without seeing anything. (AUs and alternate personalities notwithstanding)

After that, things started to go downhill...

Isn't interpretation fascinating? I couldn't pretend it didn't exist (although I could ignore it as much as possible) up to that point because Jack kept coming on to her or confessing his feelings for her (D&C, WoO). But from Grace on it was uphill for me, because Grace "proved" to me that she does not reciprocate (not the love part anyway). And there's no way she would have had the good times with Pete if she did. Threads had a worrying moment re. Jack because there was that 'Oh no, Sam doesn't realise that his relationship with Kerry isn't for real (unlike Kerry does!) and that he still wants her, cripes is he going to chase her again now that Pete is out of the picture?' moment. But fortunately nothing more came of it and Sam was allowed to get on with her life and her career without being bothered by him any more. Perhaps Jack really has realised that nothing is going to happen between them and has given up. So Grace was the start of the rehabilitation, for want of a better word, imo

[Frostfox]

Hammer met nailhead


Isn't interpretation fascinating? I couldn't pretend it didn't exist (although I could ignore it as much as possible) up to that point because Jack kept coming on to her or confessing his feelings for her (D&C, WoO). But from Grace on it was uphill for me, because Grace "proved" to me that she does not reciprocate (not the love part anyway). And there's no way she would have had the good times with Pete if she did. Threads had a worrying moment re. Jack because there was that 'Oh no, Sam doesn't realise that his relationship with Kerry isn't for real (unlike Kerry does!) and that he still wants her, cripes is he going to chase her again now that Pete is out of the picture?' moment. But fortunately nothing more came of it and Sam was allowed to get on with her life and her career without being bothered by him any more. Perhaps Jack really has realised that nothing is going to happen between them and has given up. So Grace was the start of the rehabilitation, for want of a better word, imo

When I was a casual viewer, I never noticed it, despite the best efforts of the showrunners. Romance in TV programmes bores me to tears so I think my brain just filters it out.

Once I started paying attention to the show, re-watching old episodes, I was disappointed that they just couldn't resist the cliché and (in my reading of it) started twisting the most original female character on TV to fit their purpose. And I got really disturbed when they introduced Jacob; why they chose a actor so like RDA was beyond comprehension, I'd never thought that Sam had 'Daddy Issues' until we met Jacob Carter and it was a real 'Whoa!' moment for me.

I relaxed over it when it became clear that Jack was not going resign his commission. They out and out said that if he wanted to retire and keep his job he could. He didn't, therefore, he didn't want a relationship with Sam enough to do that. End of story.

Perhaps Amanda has it right, they should get it together for a quick shag, clear the air and carry on. As long as we don't have to watch. RDA has more charisma than 99% of actors and is still in great nick, but even he's getting a bit old for bedroom scenes now.

Though in The Shroud, there wasn't a shred of inappropriate behaviour between them, so they have both moved on to the point where what ever 'it' was between them has gone and they can be General O'Neill and Colonel Carter as they should be without distractions. They were acting like friends and CO/2IC again, no more fluttering eyelashes and long supposedly meaningful gazes, it was wonderful to see.

FF

[scarimor]

Once I started paying attention to the show, re-watching old episodes, I was disappointed that they just couldn't resist the cliché and (in my reading of it) started twisting the most original female character on TV to fit their purpose. And I got really disturbed when they introduced Jacob; why they chose a actor so like RDA was beyond comprehension, I'd never thought that Sam had 'Daddy Issues' until we met Jacob Carter and it was a real 'Whoa!' moment for me.

Whoa. Carmen is way sexier than RDA

But I take your point about their age. I hadn't thought of that before. Damn you

And yeah, The Shroud helped a lot.