Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Nerwen]

Well, he´s a guy, so that doesn´t surprise me and he couldn´t really be emotionally open, given their situations and for some guys it´s actually not that easy to show their feelings and say the l-word, for example.

Well that´s probably the wrong thread to discuss that.

[poundpuppy29]

I mean in general he was I don't think he wanted a relationship with anyone Jack is not my favorite character but he was always cared for all his friends he would show that in moments but in my humble opinion I think he cared for all his friends equally and Hammond is in that group but I stand by that comment

In the beginning there was a little flirtation with Sam and it was like she is attractive he is attractive let's see but when they made it that they were pining for each other that was stupid neither one would be like that really and relationships happen in the military all the time so the whole reg thing was not a good way to go really

[Frostfox]

May I ask what makes you so sure about it?

I admit that it wouldn´t be easy for them being seperated for long periodes, her being in Atlantis and later on the Hammond.

The writers (and actors) just never 'sold' it to me. The writers didn't have the conviction to show a realistic relationship and RDA, in particular, didn't help by not acting as though being with Sam gave Jack any joy whatsoever.
In 10 years we never saw him smile at her in a loving and realistic way, there was no adult conversation about a relationship between the characters, it was all subtext, to the point of being really wishy washy and boring and just too drawn out to be realistic.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

he did a little in the first 3 seasons and I want to say in Window of Opportunity but that was it in my humble opinion

[Claire98909]

Well I've gotten the S/J shippers' opinions on it, now I want the opinion of the non-shippers. Do you believe that Sam had sex with Orlin in "Ascension", or do you believe that Landry's comment about their "intimate" relationship refers to the "light sex" thing that they did?

[Frostfox]

Well I've gotten the S/J shippers' opinions on it, now I want the opinion of the non-shippers. Do you believe that Sam had sex with Orlin in "Ascension", or do you believe that Landry's comment about their "intimate" relationship refers to the "light sex" thing that they did?

Bit off topic, but no, I never thought anything physical happened between Sam and Orlin.
The debate over whether 'light sex' can still be sex is more interesting, at least it's science fiction, rather than routine physical sex. Kira and Odo did it better on DS9.
Not too keen on the writing of Ascension anyway, why would they think Sam was going mad when they know about alien entities and other oddities due to Gate travel? Sloppy writing, the sort of stuff which hampered Stargate all the time and stopped it from being elevated into the higher echelons of TVSF, it too often fell back on cliche.

Little things annoyed me, like it was great to see Sam's house, but it didn't seem like the house of a career, single soldier? Lots of knicknacks and stuff that a family might have but didn't seem to feel 'Sam' to me. I think I expected her to have a more austere, clean, younger person's apartment, not a cosy, large, home.

Shoddy writing in the scene in 4th Horseman too, once they knew they couldn't get SPF back to play Orlin they should have ditched the plot line, didn't work for me with him as a kid and then to imply a physical relationship between the characters? Nope.

FF

[discodiva]

Not an episode I like to dwell on...I found it boring the first time I watched it and in subsequent rewatches on tv it does nothing to persuade me otherwise....Sam's "love life" had become a tad tedious for me by this time and I preferred to concentrate on Team storylines...Orlin didn't help by the fact he was probably the Most Boring Ancient/Ascendee of All Time either...


Although the idea of Jack, Teal'c and Daniel going Jello Wrestling cheered me up immensely


Deeds xx

[jdjunkie]

Well I've gotten the S/J shippers' opinions on it, now I want the opinion of the non-shippers. Do you believe that Sam had sex with Orlin in "Ascension", or do you believe that Landry's comment about their "intimate" relationship refers to the "light sex" thing that they did?

I reckon it was more of a mind-meld scenario than sex. It's not an ep I rewatch - it's dull, as is any ep featuring Sam's tedious love life. *yawn*

The writers (and actors) just never 'sold' it to me. The writers didn't have the conviction to show a realistic relationship and RDA, in particular, didn't help by not acting as though being with Sam gave Jack any joy whatsoever.
In 10 years we never saw him smile at her in a loving and realistic way, there was no adult conversation about a relationship between the characters, it was all subtext, to the point of being really wishy washy and boring and just too drawn out to be realistic.

FF

If the writers and producers didn't have the courage of their Jack/Sam convictions, than why the hell should we, as viewers? They chickened out by leaving hints that could be scooped up by shippers and happily ignored by the rest of us. See, the thing is, we never got to see them as a couple ... they never had a single, adult, fully-realised conversation about their relationship; they never went on a date; they never picked out china patterns. And the show could have gone there, if it wanted to, particularly towards the end. Take what you want from that.

Still. No more movies, no more show. People can take what they want from their "relationship". Believe they're together, believe that they're not. That's a win-win.

[Frostfox]

Not an episode I like to dwell on...I found it boring the first time I watched it and in subsequent rewatches on tv it does nothing to persuade me otherwise....Sam's "love life" had become a tad tedious for me by this time and I preferred to concentrate on Team storylines...Orlin didn't help by the fact he was probably the Most Boring Ancient/Ascendee of All Time either...


Although the idea of Jack, Teal'c and Daniel going Jello Wrestling cheered me up immensely


Deeds xx

I can't imagine who would be less likely to go to watch jello wrestling, the archeologist or the alien...

I reckon it was more of a mind-meld scenario than sex. It's not an ep I rewatch - it's dull, as is any ep featuring Sam's tedious love life. *yawn*



If the writers and producers didn't have the courage of their Jack/Sam convictions, than why the hell should we, as viewers? They chickened out by leaving hints that could be scooped up by shippers and happily ignored by the rest of us. See, the thing is, we never got to see them as a couple ... they never had a single, adult, fully-realised conversation about their relationship; they never went on a date; they never picked out china patterns. And the show could have gone there, if it wanted to, particularly towards the end. Take what you want from that.

Still. No more movies, no more show. People can take what they want from their "relationship". Believe they're together, believe that they're not. That's a win-win.

They wasted a lot of the Sam episodes. I like the non-typical female characters (Susan Ivanova, Dax and Kira, Zoe and Inara, etc, etc) and, of them all, Sam suffered the most from the stereotypes of the writers hobbling her with redundant, badly written relationships which didn't add to the show and only damaged the character. Drove me batty! Still, they were equal opportunities with the poor writing, the male characters also suffered.

But, as you say, silver linings and all that, we never had to suffer through watching Jack and Sam in a relationship, can you imagine how tacky, clichéd and boring that would have been?

FF

[jckfan55]

Shudders. I think Sam and Jack worked best as just one of the team relationships.They kid each other. RDA portrayed the teasing/joking thing with Sam well in the early seasons.

I love Jack, but I really don't see Sam being amused by everything he says. Let's face it--one of my favorite Daniel lines is in Crystal Skull "Jack, don't be an ass." Because he really could be.

[poundpuppy29]

Well I've gotten the S/J shippers' opinions on it, now I want the opinion of the non-shippers. Do you believe that Sam had sex with Orlin in "Ascension", or do you believe that Landry's comment about their "intimate" relationship refers to the "light sex" thing that they did?

not sure they had enough time to do the deed they just flirted some

[Frostfox]

Shudders. I think Sam and Jack worked best as just one of the team relationships.They kid each other. RDA portrayed the teasing/joking thing with Sam well in the early seasons.

I love Jack, but I really don't see Sam being amused by everything he says. Let's face it--one of my favorite Daniel lines is in Crystal Skull "Jack, don't be an ass." Because he really could be.

I loved some of the Sam and Jack team moments, an older man mentoring a younger woman is a refreshing and unusual TV Trope. And Amanda is clearly amused by RDA larking about (much more than I am, I know he's one of your favourites, but Jack/RDA is my least favourite member of the team).

But the Great Book of TV Stereotypes, where the writers seemed to want to go all the time, says that men and women can't be colleagues and friends, there has to be a sexual element, two by two, like dumb animals going into the ark. <sarcasm>Because, clearly, I want to have sex with every man I've ever worked with.<sarcasm>

So there was no way they could 'Leave it in the room' (you know, the way adults do. All the time. In real, normal, working relationships. In the world where we choose not to pursue a relationship because we are rounded individuals who can interact with others without acting like love struck teenagers dependent on hormones) because having the fabulously intelligent, dedicated, professional woman mooning over her unobtainable boss is just so much more interesting...

FF

[jdjunkie]

Shudders. I think Sam and Jack worked best as just one of the team relationships.They kid each other. RDA portrayed the teasing/joking thing with Sam well in the early seasons.

I love Jack, but I really don't see Sam being amused by everything he says. Let's face it--one of my favorite Daniel lines is in Crystal Skull "Jack, don't be an ass." Because he really could be.

One of the zillion reasons they would ever have worked. She might start out being tolerant of Jack's ass-isms, but it would soon turn to something less tolerant; it happens a lot with people not suited to each other. They are poorly matched on every conceivable romantic level. As work-based friends, yup, I but that. As anything else? The writers never made the case.

I loved some of the Sam and Jack team moments, an older man mentoring a younger woman is a refreshing and unusual TV Trope. And Amanda is clearly amused by RDA larking about (much more than I am, I know he's one of your favourites, but Jack/RDA is my least favourite member of the team).

But the Great Book of TV Stereotypes, where the writers seemed to want to go all the time, says that men and women can't be colleagues and friends, there has to be a sexual element, two by two, like dumb animals going into the ark. <sarcasm>Because, clearly, I want to have sex with every man I've ever worked with.<sarcasm>

So there was no way they could 'Leave it in the room' (you know, the way adults do. All the time. In real, normal, working relationships. In the world where we choose not to pursue a relationship because we are rounded individuals who can interact with others without acting like love struck teenagers dependent on hormones) because having the fabulously intelligent, dedicated, professional woman mooning over her unobtainable boss is just so much more interesting...

FF

It really isn't. I don't think it's any coincidence I grew to like Sam more in the Jack-less seasons. She was free to be herself, without the clanging chimes of shippy doom playing in the background.

[Frostfox]

One of the zillion reasons they would ever have worked. She might start out being tolerant of Jack's ass-isms, but it would soon turn to something less tolerant; it happens a lot with people not suited to each other. They are poorly matched on every conceivable romantic level. As work-based friends, yup, I but that. As anything else? The writers never made the case.

Not helped, of course, by the lack of a series bible, which meant absolutely zero consistency in the writing of the characters, some of the writers in favour of the relationship, others not interested at all. And yes, opposites attract, but it's not always a basis for a serious, long term relationship. A fling? Maybe. As you say, the writers never made a convincing case for them as a couple in a realistic, normal relationship.

It really isn't. I don't think it's any coincidence I grew to like Sam more in the Jack-less seasons. She was free to be herself, without the clanging chimes of shippy doom playing in the background.

They (TPTB) were too fond of formula TV, too wedded to its banal and the safe view of what a woman is, what she wants, that she is defined by her relationships, rather than who she is. Very early on, Amanda told the writers to just write Sam as a character, she'd take care of the 'female' bit. And some of the writers could do that, but others had to fall back on the tired old stereotypes and then when RDA left, they had no stories left for Amanda/Sam. They told Amanda to her face, that they didn't know what to do with the character because they didn't have the skill to write Sam as an independent, real woman who was interesting of herself, not just as an adjunct to another character.

FF

[jckfan55]

^ I do think there was so much more they could have done with Sam in S8, 9 & 10 but like you say Frostfox they were only seeing her in relationship to Jack (gone is S9); her father (they killed off) [and they killed her Janet, a woman friend and colleague]--the only think they really left her was technobabble. the Sam/laptop relationship.

The writers didn't seem to get that character development could come in things like say, a slightly changed relationship with Daniel & Teal'c in S8 (if they let her really be in command); more of a sense of Sam's thinking in LIne in the Sand (if RCC hadn't turned it into a Vala episode--(it was originally supposed to be a Sam ep)--in the commentary they even mention that some Sam minutes were edited out); etc. Btw I've fast forwarded through the Vala bits and can watch LitS in 15 minutes or less.

As for Jack, the dumber he got the less I liked him. And not coincidentally the dumbifying of Jack made him an increasingly unbelievable match for Sam.