Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

^ I do think there was so much more they could have done with Sam in S8, 9 & 10 but like you say Frostfox they were only seeing her in relationship to Jack (gone is S9); her father (they killed off) [and they killed her Janet, a woman friend and colleague]--the only think they really left her was technobabble. the Sam/laptop relationship.

The writers didn't seem to get that character development could come in things like say, a slightly changed relationship with Daniel & Teal'c in S8 (if they let her really be in command); more of a sense of Sam's thinking in LIne in the Sand (if RCC hadn't turned it into a Vala episode--(it was originally supposed to be a Sam ep)--in the commentary they even mention that some Sam minutes were edited out); etc. Btw I've fast forwarded through the Vala bits and can watch LitS in 15 minutes or less.

As for Jack, the dumber he got the less I liked him. And not coincidentally the dumbifying of Jack made him an increasingly unbelievable match for Sam.

It was a pretty shameful admission when TPTB said they didn't know what to do with Sam's character. It totally proves that they'd painted her into the Jack's Girl (except she wasn't) corner. Then again, they rarely wrote female characters well, and Sam suffered more than most, especially when it came to the alleged romantic feeeelings stuff. She was done a huge disservice by the Turning Up at Jack's House and Questioning Him About his Ex-Wife scene (when Jack was slowly dying) and Acting Like a Lovelorn Schoolgirl scene on his deck during his fun (and believable!) affair with Kerry. Eugh. *shivers for poor Sam*

Dumb!Jack would have sent Sam running for the hills ...

[Frostfox]

^ I do think there was so much more they could have done with Sam in S8, 9 & 10 but like you say Frostfox they were only seeing her in relationship to Jack (gone is S9); her father (they killed off) [and they killed her Janet, a woman friend and colleague]--the only think they really left her was technobabble. the Sam/laptop relationship.

The writers didn't seem to get that character development could come in things like say, a slightly changed relationship with Daniel & Teal'c in S8 (if they let her really be in command); more of a sense of Sam's thinking in LIne in the Sand (if RCC hadn't turned it into a Vala episode--(it was originally supposed to be a Sam ep)--in the commentary they even mention that some Sam minutes were edited out); etc. Btw I've fast forwarded through the Vala bits and can watch LitS in 15 minutes or less.

As for Jack, the dumber he got the less I liked him. And not coincidentally the dumbifying of Jack made him an increasingly unbelievable match for Sam.

I wanted to see Sam running the team, I can imagine the fun and games getting Cam and Vala to play ball. I wanted to see Vala and Sam develop a relationship, they'd taken her only other female friend, where would this new friendship have gone? And don't get me started on the fall out of losing Janet (Cassie? Who's she? Weren't Janet and Sam bringing her up? Or is that too iconoclastic, not heteronormative, too hard for these writers to contemplate?)

It was a pretty shameful admission when TPTB said they didn't know what to do with Sam's character. It totally proves that they'd painted her into the Jack's Girl (except she wasn't) corner. Then again, they rarely wrote female characters well, and Sam suffered more than most, especially when it came to the alleged romantic feeeelings stuff. She was done a huge disservice by the Turning Up at Jack's House and Questioning Him About his Ex-Wife scene (when Jack was slowly dying) and Acting Like a Lovelorn Schoolgirl scene on his deck during his fun (and believable!) affair with Kerry. Eugh. *shivers for poor Sam*

Dumb!Jack would have sent Sam running for the hills ...

Poor Sam and poor, poor Amanda having to put up with that drivel being written for her character. Those two scenes were a character assassination of the first order. What kind of normal person goes to their boss' house when he's dying, wanting to push for him to confront things he clearly doesn't want to, to push for their acknowledgement of feelings at the expense of a dying friends? How sick is that?
And then having her turn up dressed like a frumpy, obsessed stalker when he's trying to have a BBQ with his girlfriend. There is also some kind of sick misogyny going on in that scene, which I've never wanted to truly unpack, because it's so distasteful and nasty. Contrast to Sam's twin-set and pearls - so not the usual out-of-work outfits we saw her in - with what Kerry is wearing, skin tight, well fitting, designed to make her look attractive. What kind of weird message are they trying to send? That 'nice girls' dress demure and stammer in the presence of a manly Man and naughty girls wear skin tight t-shirts and look attractive and, by implication available? What makes Sam 'nice' and Kerry 'nasty'? Kerry's only crime is to have sex with Jack, are the writers caught up in the old 'good girls don't before marriage'? If not, why dress her so well, emphasising how attractive she is by comparison with how frumpy they are dressing Sam? Why not dress Sam in an attractive way too, they did it in other scenes, during the 10 years of the show, they show here in civvies several times but never looking frumpy and awkward? What the hell is going on with that scene? What place does it have in a TV SF Adventure show? A soap opera, maybe, but in Stargate? Weird, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I wanted to see Sam running the team, I can imagine the fun and games getting Cam and Vala to play ball. I wanted to see Vala and Sam develop a relationship, they'd taken her only other female friend, where would this new friendship have gone? And don't get me started on the fall out of losing Janet (Cassie? Who's she? Weren't Janet and Sam bringing her up? Or is that too iconoclastic, not heteronormative, too hard for these writers to contemplate?)



Poor Sam and poor, poor Amanda having to put up with that drivel being written for her character. Those two scenes were a character assassination of the first order. What kind of normal person goes to their boss' house when he's dying, wanting to push for him to confront things he clearly doesn't want to, to push for their acknowledgement of feelings at the expense of a dying friends? How sick is that?
And then having her turn up dressed like a frumpy, obsessed stalker when he's trying to have a BBQ with his girlfriend. There is also some kind of sick misogyny going on in that scene, which I've never wanted to truly unpack, because it's so distasteful and nasty. Contrast to Sam's twin-set and pearls - so not the usual out-of-work outfits we saw her in - with what Kerry is wearing, skin tight, well fitting, designed to make her look attractive. What kind of weird message are they trying to send? That 'nice girls' dress demure and stammer in the presence of a manly Man and naughty girls wear skin tight t-shirts and look attractive and, by implication available? What makes Sam 'nice' and Kerry 'nasty'? Kerry's only crime is to have sex with Jack, are the writers caught up in the old 'good girls don't before marriage'? If not, why dress her so well, emphasising how attractive she is by comparison with how frumpy they are dressing Sam? Why not dress Sam in an attractive way too, they did it in other scenes, during the 10 years of the show, they show here in civvies several times but never looking frumpy and awkward? What the hell is going on with that scene? What place does it have in a TV SF Adventure show? A soap opera, maybe, but in Stargate? Weird, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

FF

Stargate and misogyny ... surely not! I don't think we ever saw Sam in civvies look as OOC and awful as she did in that scene. The contrast with Kerry was so in your face it was laughable. Sam was made to look like a frumpy, stuttering, desperate schoolgirl and that is NOT the Sam I know. Grrrr. That's what badly-written romance does for an otherwise excellent female character.

[Frostfox]

Stargate and misogyny ... surely not! I don't think we ever saw Sam in civvies look as OOC and awful as she did in that scene. The contrast with Kerry was so in your face it was laughable. Sam was made to look like a frumpy, stuttering, desperate schoolgirl and that is NOT the Sam I know. Grrrr. That's what badly-written romance does for an otherwise excellent female character.

It takes real skill to make a woman as beautiful as Amanda look that unattractive. The question is still why?
Not to mention the lack of meaty stories for her.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

some real good points

[jdjunkie]

It takes real skill to make a woman as beautiful as Amanda look that unattractive. The question is still why?
Not to mention the lack of meaty stories for her.

FF

They stripped every decent storyline from Sam, including the Jolinar legacy, and her difficult (at times) relationship with her father. Then she became little more than The Love Interest. Then Jack left and she suddenly became interesting again and gained some character development. I love that she got to command The Hammond. What a shame they wasted valuable screen time on a storyline that didn't do her any favours and never went anywhere.

[Frostfox]

They stripped every decent storyline from Sam, including the Jolinar legacy, and her difficult (at times) relationship with her father. Then she became little more than The Love Interest. Then Jack left and she suddenly became interesting again and gained some character development. I love that she got to command The Hammond. What a shame they wasted valuable screen time on a storyline that didn't do her any favours and never went anywhere.

I so wish they had used the Jolinar plot thread more, it was interesting and a SFnal story line, including Martouf, and it was a plot specific to Sam only, something uniquely hers. Ditto her Father, and Janet, and Cassie. But, of course, she had that fabulous, oh so popular, so unique and never before seen affair with her boss, which put Romeo and Juliet, Dr Zhivago, Pride and Prejudice and Love Story to shame! So that's all right then...

FF

[poundpuppy29]

one point I really agree with is maybe they would have a fling but something serious no

[Frostfox]

one point I really agree with is maybe they would have a fling but something serious no

If the writers had handled it in a mature, realistic fashion, why not. Adults have sex with each other all the time.
But the writing of the whole, flabby mess was so poor, so juvenile that it just dragged on and on and then fizzled out to nothing.

FF

[discodiva]

*giggles at "flabby mess"* ...so perfectly summed up...


I find it very difficult in these supposed modern ages that writers can handle any adult romantic situation without resorting to a "flabby mess"....

[Somniac]

....... Sloppy writing, the sort of stuff which hampered Stargate all the time and stopped it from being elevated into the higher echelons of TVSF, it too often fell back on cliche.

FF

This is so true.

[Frostfox]

This is so true.

I sometimes felt Stargate was a bit left behind by the other shows, as though it belonged in the 1980s rather than the 90's? Shows like BSG were pushing genre SF beyond the boundaries set previously, not least in how women were shown and treated. They had corking actors, a great premise, but they seldom pushed it beyond what was safe. You got the odd show in the 10 seasons which did stretch it (thinking of The Changeling, for example) but there was no 'In The Pale Moonlight' or 'Once More With Feeling' or 'Out of Gas'.
Could have done better.

FF

[jckfan55]

They were fine until they did romance. Sam was a competent professional. IMHO they went wrong on personal life.
or until S9-10, when they went for "fun" Vala, silliness like the team at a cabin with the General

I didn't need SG1 to be edgy, just well made. I didn't like SGU in part b/c they were trying to do BSG and it just wasn't the SG world anymore.
but that's moving off topic

[discodiva]

I'm trying hard to remember the actual episode that "hooked me"...I think it was Thor's Hammer or Chariot and I was impressed by the fact it was an "adventure" story...no romance, no stupid humour, just intelligent team work...in fact I think it was Chariot and it was the Sam, Daniel & Gairwin bit where they were trying to solve the Thor problems....such great teamwork and characterisation from the "Science Twins"....I LOVED it and decided I wanted to see more of this programme....but it was only on a second rewatch a few years later that I began to realise that some romantic "flab" had been inserted in many episodes that I'd obviously not watched (looking after house & kids at that time, so missed a lot) and I began fast forwarding through certain scenes and episodes because I was bored witless with Sam and Sir

And yeah, I'm too so NOT a fan of Pigtail Vala or her off-colour sense of humour re the taunting of Daniel interminably, but again that's OT in this thread

Deeds xx

[Hathor_girl]

They (TPTB) were too fond of formula TV, too wedded to its banal and the safe view of what a woman is, what she wants, that she is defined by her relationships, rather than who she is. Very early on, Amanda told the writers to just write Sam as a character, she'd take care of the 'female' bit. And some of the writers could do that, but others had to fall back on the tired old stereotypes and then when RDA left, they had no stories left for Amanda/Sam. They told Amanda to her face, that they didn't know what to do with the character because they didn't have the skill to write Sam as an independent, real woman who was interesting of herself, not just as an adjunct to another character.

FF

Not surprising they had a hard time writing anything for her, as Amanda herself complained:

-they killed off Martouf, Lantash
-they killed off (or turned into quasi-antagonists) most of the rest of the Tok'ra, which was Sam's "special" storyline
-they killed off her dad and Selmak
-they killed off her friend Janet
-they mostly forgot all about Jolinar and the various special abilities and effects she had on Sam

All seems to have been to remove anything that could compete with Sam's interest - we can't have her think about anything but Jack or have her have a life outside mooning for him.

*grumbles*