Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Livi2Jack]

You are right on...good friends and colleagues. Anything shippy cheapens a woman on a successful career path with actual accomplishments. Just because you are both there doesn't mean there has to be a sexual relationship.

[Liebestraume]

If you aren't looking for discussion, this place is probably better than the ship discussion thread, which contains a mix of views and everyone shooting holes in everyone else's viewpoints.

Precisely, although I'm not sure shooting holes in other people's viewpoints does anything constructive. Viewpoints are not subject to debate, even though a line of reasoning certainly is. In any case, it always pays to be polite and ask permissions first.

I would have thought that this thread is full of our opinions on the subject.

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear -- I was looking for answers to a particular question. So, without further ado, I'll forge ahead.

After reading various threads, I think the expressed opinions of the "anti" folks could be, more or less, summarized as some combinations of the following (and any omission is purely incidental):
(1) I don't want to see ship EVER;
(2) I don't want to see ship on a (SciFi/military) genre show;
(3) I don't want to see ship on this show, which could be attributed to one or more of the following causes --
(3a) It takes away screen-time from the plotline/relationship/character that I care more about,
(3b) TPTB did such a lousy job of handling the ship that they should not be allowed near it, or
(3c) TPTB did such a lousy job of handling Jack and/or Sam that I no longer cared about them.

Corollary to (3c) is the notion that each viewer tends to have his own perception of the character(s), given that he has been following the show. Now, suppose that TPTB's portrayals of Sam and Jack are still what you expect them to be. My (hypothetical) question is this: what are the (or are there any) qualities intrinsic to their characterizations that would make them unsuitable for each other or destined to be apart? Or, intrinsic to one characterization that would make him/her unsuitable for the other or destined to remain alone?

[Madeleine]

3, definitely. Farscape had ship and was great.

3a too - but that wasn't the case pre s7, and might cease to be the case in s8, so 3a is only perhaps a temporary gripe.

3b - I suppose; if they'd done a good job I'd be a shipper

3c - Oh yes. Ship has changed Sam.

And to your last question... I can't 'get' any romantic relationship that is not an equal partnership, and I can't see equality between Sam and Jack on a personal level. Whenever she tries to talk 'personal' he makes it so very clear that he's "Sir" and she's the junior officer. And I can't 'get' any romantic relationship where the very act of being in the same room together can make one of them look like he's got bad wind.

[Liebestraume]

Thanks, Madeleine_W! My "last" question is actually my real question. It just took me a while to get to the point.

[Dani347]

(3) I don't want to see ship on this show, which could be attributed to one or more of the following causes --
(3a) It takes away screen-time from the plotline/relationship/character that I care more about,
(3b) TPTB did such a lousy job of handling the ship that they should not be allowed near it, or
(3c) TPTB did such a lousy job of handling Jack and/or Sam that I no longer cared about them.

Corollary to (3c) is the notion that each viewer tends to have his own perception of the character(s), given that he has been following the show. Now, suppose that TPTB's portrayals of Sam and Jack are still what you expect them to be. My (hypothetical) question is this: what are the (or are there any) qualities intrinsic to their characterizations that would make them unsuitable for each other or destined to be apart? Or, intrinsic to one characterization that would make him/her unsuitable for the other or destined to remain alone?

Okay, all three of the first ones are reasons why I don't like this ship.

Now, about the last question. I don't want to say destined to be apart anymore than destined to be together. Either one puts too much weight on the pairing. Unsuitable? The only thing they have in common is being in the military, and that's an unequal pairing right there. Sam can never meet Jack on equal ground as an Air Force officer. Outside of work, Sam seems to love science. It's not just her job, it's her passion. Jack has no interest in it (aside from astronomy), and doesn't seem to respect it. Jack likes fishing and hockey. I haven't seen Sam express any interest in either. I think these are snap shots of what the characters are like, so I'm not saying that's all they have in common. But it points to two very different people. And, I think that couples need to share at least one or two interests.

IMO, they have no chemistry. I don't care how many kisses they throw in, it's just not there for me. And, none of the kisses are natural. They're either dreams, one of them under some influence, AU characters, or Jack doing something just because he can get away with it. Real romantic. Not.

I don't like how Sam acts now. She seems to have a silly school girl crush. Jack's lost more in the battle against the Gou'ald than anyone else? Um, no. That's way over the top. Not that there's a correlation, but Jack has gained the will to live since the first mission on Abydos. He's gained three loyal friends. He's lost some, but more than anyone? To have Sam exaggerate like that makes her non credible. She could have easily said that Jack was one the bravest men she's known, and no one has fought harder than him in the battle to save the earth. That would have been respectful, admiring, without resorting to fabrication.

Jack frankly doesn't do much of anything. He's just wooden in the scenes which are supposedly to show us how much they have romantic feelings.

I don't see anything intrinsic to their characters that would make them destined to be alone either. Right now, Sam has Pete. If Jack would find his brain, I'm sure he could find someone, too.

[Dani347]

3, definitely. Farscape had ship and was great.

As far as I know, Farscape was always supposed to be a love story in space (that's what someone connected with it called it). Maybe because that was a premise from the start, they knew how to blend the sci-fi and the relationships between all the characters, plus the love story between John and Aeryn better.

I'm not opposed to ship in general if the pair is on equal footing, has chemistry, doesn't mess up the rest of the show. None of which applies to Sam&Jack.

[omnian]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this one but I was hoping someone would start it.

Anywho, this whole ship thing really has weakened the show I think. I mean, look at Seasons 1-3. They were amazing and they had little, if any, ship at all in them with regard to Jack and Sam. It was about Season 4 I think when it all started coming out and that's where it started to go downhill. What started out as a very cool TV series has lost some of its original charm and attraction.

Hmmm.....I kinda lost myself there.

[KorbenDirewolf]

I'm not really against all "ship", but when it come out of nowhere between characters that have nothing alike and suddenly seems to be the entire focus of the series is when I have a problem with it. Which, to me, is what most of Season 7 of Stargate SG-1 seemed to be.

[Liebestraume]

I appreciate you folks taking the time and lending me your perspective on things. As Dani347 so astutely observed, Sam and Jack have been depicted as two people who outwardly shared few interests. And the point that both Madeleine_W and Dani347 brought up -- the one about equality in relationships -- is very interesting. Reminded me of the discussion on Pygmalion, and the many variations on the same theme, in my lit class. Could I hazard a guess that neither of you are a big fan of My Fair Lady?

[ShadowMaat]

I appreciate you folks taking the time and lending me your perspective on things. As Dani347 so astutely observed, Sam and Jack have been depicted as two people who outwardly shared few interests. And the point that both Madeleine_W and Dani347 brought up -- the one about equality in relationships -- is very interesting. Reminded me of the discussion on Pygmalion, and the many variations on the same theme, in my lit class. Could I hazard a guess that neither of you are a big fan of My Fair Lady?

Perhaps the ship discussion thread is the appropriate place for this after all, if you're going to start questioning folks' reasonings. I was under the impression that you only sought answers about why. If it's an actual discussion you're looking for, then this isn't the thread for it. As stated in the first post, this is for people who are- for whatever reason- against Sam/Jack ship and it is NOT open for discussion/debate.

[Liebestraume]

Perhaps the ship discussion thread is the appropriate place for this after all, if you're going to start questioning folks' reasonings. I was under the impression that you only sought answers about why. If it's an actual discussion you're looking for, then this isn't the thread for it. As stated in the first post, this is for people who are- for whatever reason- against Sam/Jack ship and it is NOT open for discussion/debate.

My earlier posts in this thread made it very clear that I was merely interested to know folks' opinions on 'ship, not to question them. That being said, now I feel compelled to question the line of reasoning that gave rise to the conclusion that I was "going to start questioning folks' reasonings."

The post that you quoted had a total of 5 sentences in them. The first was to express my appreciation to those who took the time to offer their perspective, and the next two (perhaps not very effectively) articulated my comprehension, for the best compliment I could pay them, I think, was trying to understand what they had said. Yes, the word "interesting" was used but I hardly think this comment constitutes a discussion in any shape or form.

Or, do you consider the association between equality in relationships and Pygmalion, or its more popular adaptation My Fair Lady, precurse to a debate? If so, please allow me to make this absolutely clear so that'd be no misunderstandings: the side-bar inquiry re My Fair Lady is simply an inference from the stated opinions on equality in relationships, not a question thereof. The answer could be yes, no, or no comment. Whatever the case, it would have been about folks' preference re My Fair Lady.

[ShadowMaat]

Or, do you consider the association between equality in relationships and Pygmalion, or its more popular adaptation My Fair Lady, precurse to a debate?

The way I read it was, "Oh, you think the Sam/Jack dynamic is unequal? Then you must not like My Fair Lady." If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize. I gave my personal views on the equality of relationships in Stargate on the discussion thread.

[Liebestraume]

The way I read it was, "Oh, you think the Sam/Jack dynamic is unequal? Then you must not like My Fair Lady." If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize.

No apologies necessary. It was more like "If you don't like unequal partners, then chances are you would not have liked My Fair Lady." As you know, one of the criticisms of Pygmalion has been the inequality in the partnership between a mentor and a protege. That being said, it is quite possible that folks like one but not the other, simply because there is a lot more to each than just that. And hence the question.

I gave my personal views on the equality of relationships in Stargate on the discussion thread.

Thanks. I'll look it up.

[ShadowMaat]

As you know, one of the criticisms of Pygmalion has been the inequality in the partnership between a mentor and a protege.

Actually, I don't know. I've never read Pygmalion (although I did a quick look-up today) and I tried to watch My Fair Lady but found the insufferably smug, arrogant attitudes of the men too irritating to keep watching.

[Liebestraume]

Actually, I don't know. I've never read Pygmalion (although I did a quick look-up today) ...

Sorry, my bad. Presumed too much.

... and I tried to watch My Fair Lady but found the insufferably smug, arrogant attitudes of the men too irritating to keep watching.

The men in Pygmalion were only worse.