Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

I have found it disappointing for several years to read certain PTB disparaging their own show. The team are "screw ups"; the show is a "comedy" and now "comic book relationships." As you said, the friendships & team bond were very believable even while the situations they were in were part of an SF world. Somehow they managed to write friendships & and I also have to give major credit to the actors for bringing that believability to the screen. One of the things they did well is that even though the show was basically set up for our heroes to get out of whatever situation they were in by the end of the episode, you cared about them and *how* they got out of the situation.

I decided years ago that I obviously wasn't watching the same show TPTB had been producing, given my reaction to their comments.

I've rolled my eyes again and again as Coop and Co talked about SG-1 being a comedy. The final straw for me was the "comic book relationships" jibe, which not only had a dig at SG-1 but also at some ruddy good comic books!

If that's how the writers etc approached the characters, then massive props to the cast for giving them depth and interest despite TPTB's best efforts. I can honestly say that Daniel is one of my favourite TV characters ever, that Jack and Daniel offer one of the best and most complex m/m friendships and that the team dynamic (before J/S ship interfered and turned at least one aspect of it totally icky) delighted me in a way I haven't managed to replicate with any other show.

As for SGU ... It's not for me. Judging by its viewing figures it's not for a lot of other people either.

I wonder where the franchise goes from here ...

[Frostfox]

I decided years ago that I obviously wasn't watching the same show TPTB had been producing, given my reaction to their comments.

I've rolled my eyes again and again as Coop and Co talked about SG-1 being a comedy. The final straw for me was the "comic book relationships" jibe, which not only had a dig at SG-1 but also at some ruddy good comic books!

If that's how the writers etc approached the characters, then massive props to the cast for giving them depth and interest despite TPTB's best efforts. I can honestly say that Daniel is one of my favourite TV characters ever, that Jack and Daniel offer one of the best and most complex m/m friendships and that the team dynamic (before J/S ship interfered and turned at least one aspect of it totally icky) delighted me in a way I haven't managed to replicate with any other show.

As for SGU ... It's not for me. Judging by its viewing figures it's not for a lot of other people either.

I wonder where the franchise goes from here ...

It's rather sad, if TPTB don't have love (right word? Faith? Belief?) in their product, why should we? They 'dis' SG1 but SG1 was their biggest success and the cast/crew, all the way through, were dedicated and talented and deserve nothing but respect.

Back to topic.
I'm currently doing a meme on LJ.
One of the questions is 'Who's your favourite female character?'
I chose Susan Ivanova, Kira Nerys and Jadzia Dax, CJ Cregg, Cathy Gale and Emma Peel.
I considered putting Sam Carter on there but then, by comparison to the recent characters (Cathy and Emma belong to another decade) such as Susan or CJ or Kira, I just couldn't, I'd set the bar too high.
For an 80's or 90's character, she would be stunning, but by this century, we expect, we deserved a bit more, characterisation had moved on, become more sophisticated than where Sam ended up; an adjunct of Jack. The character 'they didn't know what to do with' once Jack/RDA had left the show. The character they painted into a corner with their misguided attempts at romance.

I still love the character, or perhaps, more accurately, I love what Amanda Tapping managed to do with her? She, with the more sympathetic writers mad a damn good character but I can't get over the deconstruction in later seasons, the sacrifice of Sam on the altar of overblown melodrama and juvenile bait and switch.
They hurt Jack's character too, but I feel it more keenly for Sam/AT because I care more about the character. So I couldn't in all honesty, put her on my favourite female character list. Sad, really.

FF

[jdjunkie]

It's rather sad, if TPTB don't have love (right word? Faith? Belief?) in their product, why should we? They 'dis' SG1 but SG1 was their biggest success and the cast/crew, all the way through, were dedicated and talented and deserve nothing but respect.

Back to topic.
I'm currently doing a meme on LJ.
One of the questions is 'Who's your favourite female character?'
I chose Susan Ivanova, Kira Nerys and Jadzia Dax, CJ Cregg, Cathy Gale and Emma Peel.
I considered putting Sam Carter on there but then, by comparison to the recent characters (Cathy and Emma belong to another decade) such as Susan or CJ or Kira, I just couldn't, I'd set the bar too high.
For an 80's or 90's character, she would be stunning, but by this century, we expect, we deserved a bit more, characterisation had moved on, become more sophisticated than where Sam ended up; an adjunct of Jack. The character 'they didn't know what to do with' once Jack/RDA had left the show. The character they painted into a corner with their misguided attempts at romance.

I still love the character, or perhaps, more accurately, I love what Amanda Tapping managed to do with her? She, with the more sympathetic writers mad a damn good character but I can't get over the deconstruction in later seasons, the sacrifice of Sam on the altar of overblown melodrama and juvenile bait and switch.
They hurt Jack's character too, but I feel it more keenly for Sam/AT because I care more about the character. So I couldn't in all honesty, put her on my favourite female character list. Sad, really.

FF

I'm loving the LJ meme. It's making me remember some terrific shows from my (long gone) youth.

I'm with you on CJ Cregg, who is one of my all-time favourite female characters. Beautifully written and even more beautifully acted. Also Emma Peel and Cathy Gale. I'd add Aeryn Sun and, just for variation, Denise Black's Hazel in the British QAF. Sam would not enter into the equation for me, I'm afraid. Actually, the construct of Sam I have in my head would; the Sam we saw on screen a lot of the time wouldn't. She was badly served by the writers on too many occasions, usually in connection with You Know What.

[Frostfox]

I'm loving the LJ meme. It's making me remember some terrific shows from my (long gone) youth.

I'm with you on CJ Cregg, who is one of my all-time favourite female characters. Beautifully written and even more beautifully acted. Also Emma Peel and Cathy Gale. I'd add Aeryn Sun and, just for variation, Denise Black's Hazel in the British QAF. Sam would not enter into the equation for me, I'm afraid. Actually, the construct of Sam I have in my head would; the Sam we saw on screen a lot of the time wouldn't. She was badly served by the writers on too many occasions, usually in connection with You Know What.

You know what links Emma Peel, Calthy Gale, Kira Nerys, Jadzia Dax, Aryn Sun, CJ Cregg and Susan Ivanova?
You can add Delenn, Servelan, Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Xenia, Gabrielle, Ororo, Kitty, Rogue, Jean, Betsy, Rachel, hell, even Megan (who's an emotional empath who reflects what those around her, including her husband, want), all the Firefly ladies, I'm sure there are more.

All women who were never defined by their relationships. They had relationships, important, realistic, meaningful relationships, but they were strong, interesting individuals in their own right, no matter who they might be bedding. Or not bedding. No moping about, mooning over the 'safe bet', no painting the character into a 'ship corner; where they become a mere adjunct of their other half.
And Sam started out like that.
Until they took away all her meaningful relationships, one by one until the only one left was Jack. They took out her link to the Tok'ra/Jolinar, they took out her best friend (and by extension, the girl she was helping to bring up), they took out Jacob, they narrowed down her emotional connections, narrower and narrower, losing all the interesting plot points (mostly from the first three seasons, funny that) until they had to confess to Amanda herself that they didn't know what to do with her character. No? Well that's because you, TPTB have done that to your character.

Like you, jdjunkie, I prefer the Sam in my head, and in some of the better fanfics, to what they eventually did to her.

FF

[Killdeer]

Until they took away all her meaningful relationships, one by one until the only one left was Jack. They took out her link to the Tok'ra/Jolinar, they took out her best friend (and by extension, the girl she was helping to bring up), they took out Jacob, they narrowed down her emotional connections, narrower and narrower, losing all the interesting plot points (mostly from the first three seasons, funny that) until they had to confess to Amanda herself that they didn't know what to do with her character. No? Well that's because you, TPTB have done that to your character.

Absolutely. I completely agree. I still don't understand why they felt the need to do all of that - especially dropping the Jolinar storyline and minimizing her friendships with anyone who wasn't Jack.

[Aragon101]

Absolutely. I completely agree. I still don't understand why they felt the need to do all of that - especially dropping the Jolinar storyline and minimizing her friendships with anyone who wasn't Jack.

Sadly, i've found that the TPTB in the later years have a bit of a wish fulfillment style. They're all middle aged guys... and what guy doesn't want a smart and attractive blonde fixated on them? Especially a younger one? It perfectly explains comments about" comic book relationships"

[Frostfox]

Absolutely. I completely agree. I still don't understand why they felt the need to do all of that - especially dropping the Jolinar storyline and minimizing her friendships with anyone who wasn't Jack.

What I liked with Jolinar was that it was a plot line tied specifically to Sam; Teal'c had the Jaffa sub-plot, Daniel had Shar'e, followed by The Ancients, Jack had the Asgard. And Sam had the Tok'ra, both through the excellent Jacob storyline and Jolinar. But the watered it down and then dissolved the connection completely (didn't do anything with the naquadria signature in her blood? Killed Jacob/Selmec) in favour of their oh, so, enthralling star crossed lovers, a plot line the whole of fandom was clearly waiting for, with baited breath. I mean, how can one even call oneself a Stargate fan if one doesn't find two responsible adults mooning over each other like love struck teenagers the absolute pinnacle of compelling characterization and sophisticated storytelling? Bletch.

Sadly, i've found that the TPTB in the later years have a bit of a wish fulfillment style. They're all middle aged guys... and what guy doesn't want a smart and attractive blonde fixated on them? Especially a younger one? It perfectly explains comments about" comic book relationships"

Hm, you may have a point.

FF

[Aragon101]

What I liked with Jolinar was that it was a plot line tied specifically to Sam; Teal'c had the Jaffa sub-plot, Daniel had Shar'e, followed by The Ancients, Jack had the Asgard. And Sam had the Tok'ra, both through the excellent Jacob storyline and Jolinar. But the watered it down and then dissolved the connection completely (didn't do anything with the naquadria signature in her blood? Killed Jacob/Selmec) in favour of their oh, so, enthralling star crossed lovers, a plot line the whole of fandom was clearly waiting for, with baited breath. I mean, how can one even call oneself a Stargate fan if one doesn't find two responsible adults mooning over each other like love struck teenagers the absolute pinnacle of compelling characterization and sophisticated storytelling? Bletch.



Hm, you may have a point.

FF

Every writer puts some of his or her own wish fulfillment into their writing. Even I recognize it in my own writing. It just depends on how obvious it is.

I think Young/TJ was an attempt to try and balance out hte scales in their minds. i mean. what's the one thing they're most famous for and got hte most questions over? "OMG! DO JCK AND SAM GET MARRIED IN THE THIRD MOVIE!?!?!?"

*shudder* I don't think I could live with that on my conscience. having given birth to such a...such a... it's like the Jersey Devil Story!

[Frostfox]

Every writer puts some of his or her own wish fulfillment into their writing. Even I recognize it in my own writing. It just depends on how obvious it is.

I think Young/TJ was an attempt to try and balance out hte scales in their minds. i mean. what's the one thing they're most famous for and got hte most questions over? "OMG! DO JCK AND SAM GET MARRIED IN THE THIRD MOVIE!?!?!?"

*shudder* I don't think I could live with that on my conscience. having given birth to such a...such a... it's like the Jersey Devil Story!

I confess that I don't 'get', I don't understand, liking just one aspect of a TV show. Or even putting most of my emphasis on just one aspect, whether that aspect be a relationship, a character, tech, a single actor. I like SG1 as a whole show, not just piecemeal.
So I will never understand why some fans are more invested in Jack/Sam than the show in it's entirety. Which is fine, I don't understand the fans who only watch for the big space battles too. I think they are missing out on more than they gain with such a focus. But then I don't even understand being focused on only one TV show (or book or film or whatever), my fanac covers lots of areas, not just SG1.
I don't think TPTB understand either, so having fans still asking for S/J after all these years, particularly when they had been asking for 'fishing' and that's what TPTB gave them, I think it confuses them. Certainly bewilders me.
You want Jack and Sam to be together? Cool, there's nothing in canon that says they aren't (okay, looooooooong distance, like several AU long, relationship but even so), that's your happily ever after. So what's the beef? Why on earth keep badgering TPTB for something which won't be as satisfying as what you can come up with in fanfic or your imagination? Don't get it at all.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I think Young/TJ was an attempt to try and balance out hte scales in their minds. i mean. what's the one thing they're most famous for and got hte most questions over? "OMG! DO JCK AND SAM GET MARRIED IN THE THIRD MOVIE!?!?!?"

Dull, isn't it?

You want Jack and Sam to be together? Cool, there's nothing in canon that says they aren't (okay, looooooooong distance, like several AU long, relationship but even so), that's your happily ever after. So what's the beef? Why on earth keep badgering TPTB for something which won't be as satisfying as what you can come up with in fanfic or your imagination? Don't get it at all.

FF

You know, that's what gets me about all these confirmation demands. Whatever they get (IF they get it, which despite JM's recent pronouncements I seriously doubt) will not be enough and will not be anywhere near as good as the resolution (or whatever they want to call it) they find in well-written fanfic. They're building themselves up for a massive let-down. Oh, well, whatever floats your boat.

Also ... I don't get the point of canon shipping. Seriously. What's the point in shipping a couple that are already being, er shipped? Kind of limiting and, er, uninteresting. To me. Not to shippers, obviously. My mind just isn't wired that way ...

[Frostfox]

Dull, isn't it?

The worse wore the interviews with poor AT. There always, always had to be a question about Jack/Sam. Always. Just confirming that fandom is a reflection of society as a whole, where a woman's worth is equated to her relationships. Plus the unspoken assumption that the majority of the fans actually care about such minutiae. And poor Amanda, all those years of hard work and Sam's worth is reduced to her relationship.

You know, that's what gets me about all these confirmation demands. Whatever they get (IF they get it, which despite JM's recent pronouncements I seriously doubt) will not be enough and will not be anywhere near as good as the resolution (or whatever they want to call it) they find in well-written fanfic. They're building themselves up for a massive let-down. Oh, well, whatever floats your boat.

Also ... I don't get the point of canon shipping. Seriously. What's the point in shipping a couple that are already being, er shipped? Kind of limiting and, er, uninteresting. To me. Not to shippers, obviously. My mind just isn't wired that way ...

It might seem obvious to us but fans do what they feel comfortable with. Some people seem to need canon backing for their fanac, I never have, I actually find it crimps my style. And because fanac doesn't have the constraints placed on it that show canon does, it can do more, go deeper into the underlying emotions and bonds between the characters in a way that would never be shown on screen, I think it's the greatest virtue of fanfic.

FF

[jckfan55]

All women who were never defined by their relationships. They had relationships, important, realistic, meaningful relationships, but they were strong, interesting individuals in their own right, no matter who they might be bedding. Or not bedding. No moping about, mooning over the 'safe bet', no painting the character into a 'ship corner; where they become a mere adjunct of their other half.
And Sam started out like that.
Until they took away all her meaningful relationships, one by one until the only one left was Jack. They took out her link to the Tok'ra/Jolinar, they took out her best friend (and by extension, the girl she was helping to bring up), they took out Jacob, they narrowed down her emotional connections, narrower and narrower, losing all the interesting plot points (mostly from the first three seasons, funny that) until they had to confess to Amanda herself that they didn't know what to do with her character. No? Well that's because you, TPTB have done that to your character.

by the end Sam's friendship with DANIEL was missing FCOL! and that was bad for Daniel too, imho.

The worse wore the interviews with poor AT. There always, always had to be a question about Jack/Sam. Always. Just confirming that fandom is a reflection of society as a whole, where a woman's worth is equated to her relationships. Plus the unspoken assumption that the majority of the fans actually care about such minutiae. And poor Amanda, all those years of hard work and Sam's worth is reduced to her relationship.

FF

And there was AT saying in interviews that she was glad Sam was focused on her career again. I always suspected it was a tactful way of saying, "i may not have much to do, but at least it's not the S/J nonsense we were getting at the end of S8." Sam/Laptop is better than S/J.

[Frostfox]

by the end Sam's friendship with DANIEL was missing FCOL! and that was bad for Daniel too, imho.

Tell me about it. Too much Daniel/Vala, to the detriment of both of them, too little Wonder Twins, one of my favourite parts of Team SG1.

And there was AT saying in interviews that she was glad Sam was focused on her career again. I always suspected it was a tactful way of saying, "i may not have much to do, but at least it's not the S/J nonsense we were getting at the end of S8." Sam/Laptop is better than S/J.

Oh god, that woman is such a trooper, she gave so much to SG1, Amanda (and Sam) deserved so much more.
Amanda always puts Sam and Jacob at the top her list of Sam's best relationships, and quite right too. Sam and Jacob was a relationship which taught us a great deal about Sam, in a positive, affirming way.

FF

[jdjunkie]

It might seem obvious to us but fans do what they feel comfortable with. Some people seem to need canon backing for their fanac, I never have, I actually find it crimps my style. And because fanac doesn't have the constraints placed on it that show canon does, it can do more, go deeper into the underlying emotions and bonds between the characters in a way that would never be shown on screen, I think it's the greatest virtue of fanfic.

FF

To me, canon backing is just ... dull. I mean, the writers are doing what, er, you want the writers to do. They're putting your couple together. So ... where's the fun? Where's the subtext? If it's all handed to you on a plate, ie, Sam and Jack are together after Threads ... where do you go with that? They're together. End of. Next ship, please ... I think shippers should beware if it's "resolved" "confirmed" whatever in a third movie. Be careful what you wish for ...

Whereas, when you ship a non-canon couple, the world is your lobster. You are not constrained by what TPTB tell you has happened. You want Daniel and Sarah to end up together? Go for it. Write the fic, make the vids. You're not constrained by pesky old canon and The Writers. Jack and Kerry (who I rather liked as a couple)? Absolutely. Seeing each other in Washington when they can and having a happy, easy-going relationship.

Like I said, I guess I'm wired differently. Give me the subtext any day. Much more to think about. I don't like being spoon-fed. Of course with Jack/Sam it wasn't so much spoon-fed as laid on ten inches thick with a giant trowel.

by the end Sam's friendship with DANIEL was missing FCOL! and that was bad for Daniel too, imho.



And there was AT saying in interviews that she was glad Sam was focused on her career again. I always suspected it was a tactful way of saying, "i may not have much to do, but at least it's not the S/J nonsense we were getting at the end of S8." Sam/Laptop is better than S/J.

Sam/Blue Jello is right up there with Sam/laptop as being better than Jack/Sam.

[Frostfox]

To me, canon backing is just ... dull. I mean, the writers are doing what, er, you want the writers to do. They're putting your couple together. So ... where's the fun? Where's the subtext? If it's all handed to you on a plate, ie, Sam and Jack are together after Threads ... where do you go with that? They're together. End of. Next ship, please ... I think shippers should beware if it's "resolved" "confirmed" whatever in a third movie. Be careful what you wish for ...

I can guarantee that whatever TPTB do to resurrect the dead horse in the third film, it it won't be as satisfying for the S/J 'ship fans as the fanfic writers, vidders, artists would come up with.

I can also guarantee that no matter how 'canon' TPTB make Sam/Jack, they will not discourage a single slash fan, anti-Sam/Jack fan, Team fan, Sam/Daniel fan, etc, etc, we're not going to have a religious conversion and all suddenly think that it's the best characterization ever seen on TV and a masterful piece of storytelling and all suddenly fall into line like sheep. We're still going to think it's silly and trite and intrusive of the real story of SG1.
Indeed, there will be a huge resurgence of fix-it fics. Those of us who aren't constrained by SG1 canon are not going to let a trivial thing like TPTB making S/J canon, to stop us from enjoying the aspects of the show we prefer.
We'll continue, as we always have, reading the subtext, following the charisma and chemistry, rather than just accepting that a relationship should happen just 'because they are meant to be'. As long as RDA looks as uncomfortable as a man about to meet a firing squad and the chemistry remains so negligible, Sam and Jack as a realistic couple will remain risible.

Whereas, when you ship a non-canon couple, the world is your lobster. You are not constrained by what TPTB tell you has happened. You want Daniel and Sarah to end up together? Go for it. Write the fic, make the vids. You're not constrained by pesky old canon and The Writers. Jack and Kerry (who I rather liked as a couple)? Absolutely. Seeing each other in Washington when they can and having a happy, easy-going relationship.

Like I said, I guess I'm wired differently. Give me the subtext any day. Much more to think about. I don't like being spoon-fed. Of course with Jack/Sam it wasn't so much spoon-fed as laid on ten inches thick with a giant trowel.

I'll take challenging, nuanced, clever TV over cliché, safe, dull TV every day. Leading man gets leading woman! Woo hoo! What an iconoclastic bit of writing that is, no one has ever done that on TV before. Yawn.

Sam/Blue Jello is right up there with Sam/laptop as being better than Jack/Sam.

Funny you should say that, sg_fignewton just posted this on the SG1 fanfic rec community -
http://community.livejournal.com/sta...c/1540097.html
Great fun read, no silly romance required.

FF